Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast.
My name is Thomas Kronquist.
I'm the cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father Charles, how are you today?
Very well, Tom.
How are you?
Doing well.
We have a another very interesting talk with, doctor Julia Klausley, who is the the director of the master of psychology program here at the university.
She is, doing work, research on, depression among college students and also the, the importance of spirituality in marriage.
And, today, she's gonna talk to us about the former.
So doctor Julia Clousely, welcome.
How are you today?
Doing great.
Thank you so much for having me.
Well, this is a very, very important topic, depression among college students.
We hear that, especially today with the, the pandemic that, that's on the rise.
Can you talk to us about what you're seeing and, what the what the challenges are?
Yeah.
So, of course, pandemic is you know, has made things even worse.
But even before the pandemic, one of the reasons I got interested in depression in college students is these just huge percentages of students who are struggling with clinical levels depression.
So some of the newer research suggests, like, up to thirty three, thirty five ish percent of college students, at some point, would meet criteria for clinical depression, which, of course, is a huge staggering number.
And trying to think, well, especially those who are identifying as Christians, how would their faith help them in these times of stress and struggle?
Well, you know, we have, you know, there's obviously, with COVID and the lockdowns, that's that's a big challenge.
Also, you have things like, you know, social media.
And I've read things where, that can lead to depression when, you know, when he, especially in the college age, you know, you're not getting the number of likes you want on Facebook or one of these things or, you know, or you get criticized by someone else or something along those lines.
Maybe are there is there research related to that as well as a potential pause?
Well, I think there is some good research on bullying over social media that happens, relational aggression, and that happens through texting, social exclusion.
Right?
Group picture, everybody's on it, but I'm not, and then that gets posted.
But I think maybe the effect of that is even more when I you know, the different universities, who have had students come back in person, yet most of the classes now are online.
So we have thousands and thousands of students sitting in their little dorm room and not even sharing a dorm room, no more roommates.
Right?
So you are supposed to be on your own.
So all of a all of a sudden, the effect of that social media piece probably even greater.
Yeah.
I would imagine not having interaction with other individuals in person.
You know, we there's a lot of conveniences for, I think, everybody.
It was like a it was like a two edged sword here when we're dealing with COVID.
You know?
I think people like, working from home.
It has some advantages to not have to find traffic or maybe, you know, you can get out of bed a little bit later and whatnot.
At what point, you know, is it something where we we get cooped into the house and, it's just psychologically good, I think, to get outside of our homes and and be with our be with other people who who who are important to us in one way or another, whether they're companions in the university or or, you know, work, you know, work work our work got, from patriots.
So, what, what what what advice can we give?
Because now some of these lockdowns and rules of the schools prevent young people from from from leaving their dorm or leaving their home.
Mhmm.
Any advice for those folks?
Yeah.
That's a that's a challenging challenging question, challenging situation.
So what's interesting, one of our data collections we did over the last few years, we looked at role of social support, perception of social support, and, which is really strong predictor of feeling less depressed if I have a perception of good social support.
Now during the pandemic, that might be challenging to live that out.
Right?
But it's also, I think, important to know that for the students to know themselves and for the screening, what we found, if somebody comes from an insecure attachment background, maybe difficult family background, comes from a background of not having had those secure, secure, supportive relationship.
That that really affects the way they they view their social support options.
They might not see relationships as as supportive.
So now I I could imagine we don't have data on that yet.
In the pandemic, That would be even worse.
Right?
Because I'm not I'm not even around people anymore.
If I already have that, thought of, well, probably relationships are not gonna help me as much, that never gets confirmed the other way because I'm around people.
Maybe I'm not around people gives me an excuse to withdraw even more because of COVID, and I'm supposed to be isolated anyway.
I noticed with my children during this pandemic that they're obviously spending a lot of time on computers, but they're communicating with, people through the Internet, relatives, cousins, but also people they don't know, playing games and things like that.
And and they refer to these people as their friends.
And I sometimes think to myself, you know, what kind of friendship can you develop virtually?
What is there any kind of, understanding about the difference between, let's say, a a personal, face to face relationship versus these virtual relationships?
And, you know, what what are the the the the advantage or disadvantages of of of each?
How do they compare, contrast?
That's interesting.
I I'm not sure.
I think there's a growing body of literature.
And, I mean, the pandemic just started in March, so it'll be interesting in the next year or two and what we learn about the effects on depression, on emotional well-being.
What I was really interested in, in the research we did was, how does the role of faith and the walk with God play into this?
Right?
This this a a concept that's been kind of developed in the research literature over the last few years.
It's called spiritual coping, and it really describes the ability to turn to God in times of stress.
And do I have a walk of faith that helps me turn to God in times of stress?
Or in difficult times, do I have that cognition of, god is punishing me, or he's not there for me?
And we found that that piece is a is a huge link in how students deal with stressors, difficulties, and how are they able to cope with it, either positively or not so positive.
Yeah.
Well, that's a great point.
And what what role does faith play when someone who's really, say, clinically depressed, you know, from from a psychological clinical standpoint?
Do we need kind of both, obviously, faith is is is very important Mhmm.
In helping us, counter that.
But, also, do we also need therapy or or or counseling or just someone to talk to?
And because there's some people you might see two extremes out there.
You know, someone who just said, well, I just you know, that you just need to have faith and not be worried.
You know, Saint Paul talks about putting our anxieties in God's hands, and that should, I'm not sure he means that to be a cure all.
Right?
And that's not that we don't have human relationships, that help us.
How would you because the other extreme is just, like, well, it's not really it's it's just, I'm good.
I'm good in my faith, but I I it's really just a a human issue here.
Seed demeanor needs a bit balanced.
And would you would you would you agree with that?
Is there, any kind of evidence or research that might support that?
Yeah.
I'm glad you brought that up.
So, obviously, somebody struggling with clinical levels of depression, very, very important to seek help, very important to be in treatment, to seek out counseling, somebody who is trained in working with somebody who struggles with depression.
So I would, say hugely important.
Right?
And and especially during the pandemic in this isolation, even more so important to have kinda mental health check-in, to make sure we're okay.
Right?
If we notice our thoughts going more and more in the negative, where the where the sad feelings kinda overtake most of the day, definitely warning signs to say I need to reach out.
What we were interested in is, you know, and I think with that, just to follow-up, somebody who is in that will probably perceive God as less supportive, will be will have a hard time making use or having a positive role of faith because of the struggle with depression.
So I think thank you for bringing that up.
That's hugely important that we are not on our own thinking, I will just pray and I'll be good, that we seek help.
Right.
That's one of the things we try to do here at Divine Mercy University in our programs, right, is to bridge the gap between faith and science or or have the two talking together.
Saint John Paul the second, wrote about this in his advice to confessors that remember, the, confessor needs to remember he's not he's not a psychologist.
Mhmm.
And the psychologist needs to remember he's not the priest or she's not the priest.
And so one of the things we try to achieve in our in our work here is to, build those relationships.
And so it's kind of a both and way of of of looking at at all kinds of mental health issues, but especially something like depression, which tends to be very complex.
Mhmm.
Would you have any suppose would you have any what would your advice be to pastors out there who maybe oftentimes have people, parishioners or members of their church who come, with problems, and they might think the person is depressed?
Advice, what what can they do?
What shouldn't they do?
That's a good question.
Tough question.
So I think if you have any inclination that that person is clinically depressed, you want to refer.
Right?
There are people out there who are trained.
It's a long and thorough training.
As we see at DMU, our counseling program, our PsyD program, our students go through years of very good thorough training to be effective in helping people who are struggling with clinical depression.
I think in addition, there is a support question.
Right?
Or maybe a preventative question.
Right?
So so once somebody is in that place of really being clinically depressed, so important to refer, find, you know, professional help.
But then there is a huge question about preventative work.
Right?
Risk eliminating risk factors, finding things that are supportive that, maybe the students don't even end up in that place of clinical depression.
And, it's interesting thinking about faith and the relationship to well-being.
One of the, variables what, we were interested in looking at was, comes out of that whole literature of discrepancy theory.
I don't know if people are are familiar with that.
But it's that idea of thinking I'm falling short.
Right?
If I like, I should be here, but I'm only here.
Now that applies to academic work.
Right?
Very prevalent amongst students.
I should have a's, but I maybe had a b plus.
I I should have all these friends.
I should have all these Facebook friends.
Right?
So discrepancy theory shows whenever a student or a person has a sense of falling short, not being where they should be or would wanna be, it's pretty highly linked to depressive thoughts and feelings.
So what we found is that that can also apply to spirituality.
Feeling like, I'm feeling a little down.
Why I should be fine because I'm a Christian.
Why I should just pray more and I'm sure I'm fine.
And that thought pattern actually adds to depression.
If if somebody goes down that path, we found actually a pretty strong relationship correlation to more depressive, symptomology.
So and I think the pastor, the priest is coming alongside and reevaluating.
Right?
How how am I processing my faith?
Am I having those supportive networks and interactions with people?
Am I having this work work sense of faith where I always feel like I should be better, further?
You know?
That's a great point.
You know, there's a saying out there.
You know, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.
Yeah.
And that kind of perfectionist in our perfectionism in our spiritual life can be can actually be dangerous.
Right?
When we feel like, you know, I should be better, we're we're all gonna fall short in one way or another.
You know?
And we really need to to understand that and have a certain, a certain humility and a certain trust in the Holy Spirit and trust in God's God's grace and God's presence in our lives to deal with our own failures.
Or maybe even too, you know, parents with children, I mean, how they, develop their children spiritually as well so that they don't create sort of a sense of, you know, I need to be perfect.
And when when things aren't perfect and when we fall into any kind of, sin or anything like that, that we we really need to be, you know, understanding and and helping them to see this as as god would see it and understand his his great mercy.
Right?
And that kinda goes with the, right, that whole body of literature on forgiveness and emotional well-being.
You know, doctor Enright and some of his research showing how important it is to have understand forgiveness, experience forgiveness to be able to let go of certain things, and we see a huge link to emotional well-being.
Yes.
It's almost like sometimes we put the the bar higher for ourselves than God does.
And I realized that he, you know, he he made us.
He knows exactly who we are.
He knows exactly what we're made of.
You know, we just need to to really make an act of it really takes some faith, actually, in in a way to to be able to accept ourselves, accept accept our own shortcomings.
Right?
Yeah.
So and that's interesting.
It was really interesting for us that we could find students who rated a high discrepancy between where they should their perception of where they should be versus where they perceive themselves did score higher on depression inventories.
So that was an interesting piece, you know, to see from the data.
And then, you know, I know you you mentioned the other perfectionism.
What did you say?
I see a lot.
I don't know.
I you you you have your own children, Joel, doctor.
Honestly, I don't have children, obviously.
But seems like today, as opposed to when I was growing up, you know, thirty, forty years ago, sometimes it seems like some families put so much pressure and that maybe and also the culture in general, like, the younger children need to be performing at a high level in second and third grade because then they won't get into a particular high school, which means then they won't get into a bigger college.
Do you see that as contributing to this?
And then when you get to the college, they they, they feel like, oh my god.
I'm here now.
I better not I better not, fail here or even just be subpar in any way.
I read a study just a little while ago that discussed, kind of almost a burnout syndrome amongst young college students.
And I think discussing this this push, right, high school, SAT scores, ACT scores, GPA, scholarships, pushing through take dual credits.
So when you get into college, students having this fatigue, kinda coming out of those high school years.
So I I don't I'm not I'm sure there's more literature out there, and that is just one study I saw a little while ago, which I I could see, you know, there is a lot of pressure on young young people.
And in parenting.
Right?
And how how to how to go against the grain, how to go against the, the currents of the culture today in in sort of make it even harder for kids to grow up feeling feeling like they need to be perfect and get straight a's and everything else their entire life.
Yeah.
Social media has contributed to that because kids are exposed to so many more, people to compare themselves to.
You know, when I was growing up, it was my class and my friends in the neighborhood, and that's pretty much who I interacted with.
Now you can interact with countless people and get a sense of what they're doing, and everything is, with the photos or the best photos and the best descriptions in Facebook and everything else.
And and and there's so many other way there's so many more ways for kids to judge themselves compared to other people.
Is do you see that as a as a contributing factor?
Yeah.
I think that goes back to the whole discrepancy theory.
Right?
That shows that linked to emotional struggle because you're right.
I can compare myself to to endless.
Right?
All the YouTube channels people have, all the social media pieces.
So the ability to compare and perceive myself as falling short or maybe fostering that thinking of why I should be I I I could be.
Ideally, I would like to be, looking like this, doing this, you know, having these accomplishments, I think gives more opportunity for perceived discrepancy, which then would be linked to emotional struggle and depression.
Well, doctor Clausley, this is a very, very interesting topic.
And again, thank you so much for, for being with us today.
And I would, I would recommend that anyone anybody who has, you know, questions, would like to learn more about this, might go to our website, divinemercy.edu, look at the different programs that are available and, and and and consider, you know, maybe, being a student here at Divine Mercy University.
And, you know, one of the things, doctor Klaus is the director of our online master's in psychology, and if you're interested in doing this kind of research, Maybe she can just tell us briefly.
We have a project each per each student does what's called a capstone, well, in this area, if they were interested in depression and college students and those kinds of things.
Yeah.
So the capstone is a a project our students work on throughout the whole program.
It's a great opportunity to dig deeper, go deeper in one area.
We start out in the beginning of the program thinking of what's a problem that I've observed, that I'd love to address, that that has, you know, that could be couples struggling in my parish.
It could be college students depressed.
We've had quite a few focus missionaries, studying with us.
So the caps on then, they will think through the research literature, psychological research literature.
They will think through theological, philosophical, integrative literature to understand that phenomenon better.
And then in the end, towards the end of the program, we'll develop an intervention.
It could be a retreat.
It could be a mentoring program that they, write a proposal how to address that problem.
So I've I've loved working with our students.
I've done a lot of advising on capstone projects.
Really have enjoyed seeing students develop different interventions, programs that they can take to their parishes or places of work in ministry, to address different issues.
Great.
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
More information at divinemercy.edu.
Doctor Clausley, thank you so much again for, for being with us, and, we look forward to having you on again and, discussing another, very, very important topic.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
So nice to be here.