WEBVTT 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:10.020 Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast. 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:11.840 My name is Thomas Kronquist. 00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:16.585 I'm the cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University. 00:00:16.645 --> 00:00:18.265 Father Charles, how are you today? 00:00:18.725 --> 00:00:19.605 Very well, Tom. 00:00:19.605 --> 00:00:20.345 How are you? 00:00:20.485 --> 00:00:20.965 Doing well. 00:00:20.965 --> 00:00:30.660 We have a another very interesting talk with, doctor Julia Klausley, who is the the director of the master of psychology program here at the university. 00:00:31.360 --> 00:00:41.115 She is, doing work, research on, depression among college students and also the, the importance of spirituality in marriage. 00:00:41.115 --> 00:00:43.935 And, today, she's gonna talk to us about the former. 00:00:44.395 --> 00:00:47.035 So doctor Julia Clousely, welcome. 00:00:47.035 --> 00:00:48.015 How are you today? 00:00:48.795 --> 00:00:49.515 Doing great. 00:00:49.515 --> 00:00:51.135 Thank you so much for having me. 00:00:52.900 --> 00:00:57.880 Well, this is a very, very important topic, depression among college students. 00:00:58.820 --> 00:01:04.900 We hear that, especially today with the, the pandemic that, that's on the rise. 00:01:04.900 --> 00:01:10.175 Can you talk to us about what you're seeing and, what the what the challenges are? 00:01:11.035 --> 00:01:11.355 Yeah. 00:01:11.355 --> 00:01:17.755 So, of course, pandemic is you know, has made things even worse. 00:01:17.755 --> 00:01:29.920 But even before the pandemic, one of the reasons I got interested in depression in college students is these just huge percentages of students who are struggling with clinical levels depression. 00:01:30.380 --> 00:01:44.495 So some of the newer research suggests, like, up to thirty three, thirty five ish percent of college students, at some point, would meet criteria for clinical depression, which, of course, is a huge staggering number. 00:01:45.355 --> 00:01:55.470 And trying to think, well, especially those who are identifying as Christians, how would their faith help them in these times of stress and struggle? 00:01:56.730 --> 00:02:02.350 Well, you know, we have, you know, there's obviously, with COVID and the lockdowns, that's that's a big challenge. 00:02:03.465 --> 00:02:06.185 Also, you have things like, you know, social media. 00:02:06.185 --> 00:02:23.300 And I've read things where, that can lead to depression when, you know, when he, especially in the college age, you know, you're not getting the number of likes you want on Facebook or one of these things or, you know, or you get criticized by someone else or something along those lines. 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.660 Maybe are there is there research related to that as well as a potential pause? 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:38.665 Well, I think there is some good research on bullying over social media that happens, relational aggression, and that happens through texting, social exclusion. 00:02:38.805 --> 00:02:39.205 Right? 00:02:39.205 --> 00:02:43.145 Group picture, everybody's on it, but I'm not, and then that gets posted. 00:02:43.925 --> 00:02:56.160 But I think maybe the effect of that is even more when I you know, the different universities, who have had students come back in person, yet most of the classes now are online. 00:02:56.540 --> 00:03:03.935 So we have thousands and thousands of students sitting in their little dorm room and not even sharing a dorm room, no more roommates. 00:03:03.935 --> 00:03:04.175 Right? 00:03:04.175 --> 00:03:05.955 So you are supposed to be on your own. 00:03:06.335 --> 00:03:12.355 So all of a all of a sudden, the effect of that social media piece probably even greater. 00:03:13.310 --> 00:03:13.810 Yeah. 00:03:14.350 --> 00:03:17.730 I would imagine not having interaction with other individuals in person. 00:03:18.110 --> 00:03:20.750 You know, we there's a lot of conveniences for, I think, everybody. 00:03:20.750 --> 00:03:24.190 It was like a it was like a two edged sword here when we're dealing with COVID. 00:03:24.190 --> 00:03:24.850 You know? 00:03:24.910 --> 00:03:27.565 I think people like, working from home. 00:03:27.565 --> 00:03:35.185 It has some advantages to not have to find traffic or maybe, you know, you can get out of bed a little bit later and whatnot. 00:03:35.965 --> 00:03:58.285 At what point, you know, is it something where we we get cooped into the house and, it's just psychologically good, I think, to get outside of our homes and and be with our be with other people who who who are important to us in one way or another, whether they're companions in the university or or, you know, work, you know, work work our work got, from patriots. 00:03:58.665 --> 00:04:02.905 So, what, what what what advice can we give? 00:04:02.905 --> 00:04:10.440 Because now some of these lockdowns and rules of the schools prevent young people from from from leaving their dorm or leaving their home. 00:04:10.820 --> 00:04:11.320 Mhmm. 00:04:11.380 --> 00:04:12.920 Any advice for those folks? 00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:13.860 Yeah. 00:04:13.860 --> 00:04:17.960 That's a that's a challenging challenging question, challenging situation. 00:04:18.580 --> 00:04:35.330 So what's interesting, one of our data collections we did over the last few years, we looked at role of social support, perception of social support, and, which is really strong predictor of feeling less depressed if I have a perception of good social support. 00:04:36.510 --> 00:04:40.690 Now during the pandemic, that might be challenging to live that out. 00:04:40.910 --> 00:04:41.410 Right? 00:04:41.870 --> 00:05:01.450 But it's also, I think, important to know that for the students to know themselves and for the screening, what we found, if somebody comes from an insecure attachment background, maybe difficult family background, comes from a background of not having had those secure, secure, supportive relationship. 00:05:02.470 --> 00:05:06.870 That that really affects the way they they view their social support options. 00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:10.250 They might not see relationships as as supportive. 00:05:11.190 --> 00:05:13.750 So now I I could imagine we don't have data on that yet. 00:05:13.750 --> 00:05:16.625 In the pandemic, That would be even worse. 00:05:16.625 --> 00:05:17.125 Right? 00:05:17.345 --> 00:05:20.325 Because I'm not I'm not even around people anymore. 00:05:20.865 --> 00:05:30.550 If I already have that, thought of, well, probably relationships are not gonna help me as much, that never gets confirmed the other way because I'm around people. 00:05:30.550 --> 00:05:38.330 Maybe I'm not around people gives me an excuse to withdraw even more because of COVID, and I'm supposed to be isolated anyway. 00:05:38.790 --> 00:05:54.775 I noticed with my children during this pandemic that they're obviously spending a lot of time on computers, but they're communicating with, people through the Internet, relatives, cousins, but also people they don't know, playing games and things like that. 00:05:54.775 --> 00:05:58.150 And and they refer to these people as their friends. 00:05:58.610 --> 00:06:04.230 And I sometimes think to myself, you know, what kind of friendship can you develop virtually? 00:06:04.370 --> 00:06:16.765 What is there any kind of, understanding about the difference between, let's say, a a personal, face to face relationship versus these virtual relationships? 00:06:16.765 --> 00:06:23.405 And, you know, what what are the the the the advantage or disadvantages of of of each? 00:06:23.405 --> 00:06:25.025 How do they compare, contrast? 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:26.520 That's interesting. 00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:27.400 I I'm not sure. 00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:30.060 I think there's a growing body of literature. 00:06:30.440 --> 00:06:41.155 And, I mean, the pandemic just started in March, so it'll be interesting in the next year or two and what we learn about the effects on depression, on emotional well-being. 00:06:41.615 --> 00:06:50.975 What I was really interested in, in the research we did was, how does the role of faith and the walk with God play into this? 00:06:50.975 --> 00:06:51.475 Right? 00:06:52.175 --> 00:06:59.220 This this a a concept that's been kind of developed in the research literature over the last few years. 00:06:59.280 --> 00:07:05.940 It's called spiritual coping, and it really describes the ability to turn to God in times of stress. 00:07:06.835 --> 00:07:12.295 And do I have a walk of faith that helps me turn to God in times of stress? 00:07:13.395 --> 00:07:20.250 Or in difficult times, do I have that cognition of, god is punishing me, or he's not there for me? 00:07:20.730 --> 00:07:35.390 And we found that that piece is a is a huge link in how students deal with stressors, difficulties, and how are they able to cope with it, either positively or not so positive. 00:07:36.145 --> 00:07:36.385 Yeah. 00:07:36.385 --> 00:07:37.425 Well, that's a great point. 00:07:37.425 --> 00:07:45.605 And what what role does faith play when someone who's really, say, clinically depressed, you know, from from a psychological clinical standpoint? 00:07:48.385 --> 00:07:55.900 Do we need kind of both, obviously, faith is is is very important Mhmm. 00:07:56.020 --> 00:07:58.420 In helping us, counter that. 00:07:58.420 --> 00:08:03.645 But, also, do we also need therapy or or or counseling or just someone to talk to? 00:08:03.865 --> 00:08:06.605 And because there's some people you might see two extremes out there. 00:08:06.665 --> 00:08:12.445 You know, someone who just said, well, I just you know, that you just need to have faith and not be worried. 00:08:12.585 --> 00:08:19.600 You know, Saint Paul talks about putting our anxieties in God's hands, and that should, I'm not sure he means that to be a cure all. 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:19.840 Right? 00:08:19.840 --> 00:08:23.780 And that's not that we don't have human relationships, that help us. 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:29.120 How would you because the other extreme is just, like, well, it's not really it's it's just, I'm good. 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.925 I'm good in my faith, but I I it's really just a a human issue here. 00:08:34.125 --> 00:08:35.645 Seed demeanor needs a bit balanced. 00:08:35.645 --> 00:08:37.405 And would you would you would you agree with that? 00:08:37.405 --> 00:08:40.865 Is there, any kind of evidence or research that might support that? 00:08:41.565 --> 00:08:41.805 Yeah. 00:08:41.805 --> 00:08:43.005 I'm glad you brought that up. 00:08:43.005 --> 00:09:00.810 So, obviously, somebody struggling with clinical levels of depression, very, very important to seek help, very important to be in treatment, to seek out counseling, somebody who is trained in working with somebody who struggles with depression. 00:09:01.375 --> 00:09:04.975 So I would, say hugely important. 00:09:04.975 --> 00:09:05.475 Right? 00:09:05.535 --> 00:09:17.180 And and especially during the pandemic in this isolation, even more so important to have kinda mental health check-in, to make sure we're okay. 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:17.740 Right? 00:09:18.040 --> 00:09:29.100 If we notice our thoughts going more and more in the negative, where the where the sad feelings kinda overtake most of the day, definitely warning signs to say I need to reach out. 00:09:29.880 --> 00:09:52.240 What we were interested in is, you know, and I think with that, just to follow-up, somebody who is in that will probably perceive God as less supportive, will be will have a hard time making use or having a positive role of faith because of the struggle with depression. 00:09:52.700 --> 00:09:54.460 So I think thank you for bringing that up. 00:09:54.460 --> 00:10:02.465 That's hugely important that we are not on our own thinking, I will just pray and I'll be good, that we seek help. 00:10:03.085 --> 00:10:03.325 Right. 00:10:03.325 --> 00:10:11.745 That's one of the things we try to do here at Divine Mercy University in our programs, right, is to bridge the gap between faith and science or or have the two talking together. 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:23.490 Saint John Paul the second, wrote about this in his advice to confessors that remember, the, confessor needs to remember he's not he's not a psychologist. 00:10:24.115 --> 00:10:24.275 Mhmm. 00:10:24.275 --> 00:10:27.475 And the psychologist needs to remember he's not the priest or she's not the priest. 00:10:27.475 --> 00:10:33.575 And so one of the things we try to achieve in our in our work here is to, build those relationships. 00:10:33.635 --> 00:10:43.800 And so it's kind of a both and way of of of looking at at all kinds of mental health issues, but especially something like depression, which tends to be very complex. 00:10:44.260 --> 00:10:44.760 Mhmm. 00:10:45.380 --> 00:10:58.965 Would you have any suppose would you have any what would your advice be to pastors out there who maybe oftentimes have people, parishioners or members of their church who come, with problems, and they might think the person is depressed? 00:11:01.665 --> 00:11:03.185 Advice, what what can they do? 00:11:03.185 --> 00:11:04.405 What shouldn't they do? 00:11:04.930 --> 00:11:05.890 That's a good question. 00:11:05.890 --> 00:11:06.630 Tough question. 00:11:06.770 --> 00:11:13.190 So I think if you have any inclination that that person is clinically depressed, you want to refer. 00:11:13.730 --> 00:11:13.970 Right? 00:11:13.970 --> 00:11:15.490 There are people out there who are trained. 00:11:15.490 --> 00:11:17.010 It's a long and thorough training. 00:11:17.010 --> 00:11:28.945 As we see at DMU, our counseling program, our PsyD program, our students go through years of very good thorough training to be effective in helping people who are struggling with clinical depression. 00:11:29.965 --> 00:11:33.725 I think in addition, there is a support question. 00:11:33.725 --> 00:11:34.045 Right? 00:11:34.045 --> 00:11:36.145 Or maybe a preventative question. 00:11:36.660 --> 00:11:36.900 Right? 00:11:36.900 --> 00:11:45.800 So so once somebody is in that place of really being clinically depressed, so important to refer, find, you know, professional help. 00:11:46.180 --> 00:11:51.075 But then there is a huge question about preventative work. 00:11:51.075 --> 00:11:51.395 Right? 00:11:51.395 --> 00:12:03.175 Risk eliminating risk factors, finding things that are supportive that, maybe the students don't even end up in that place of clinical depression. 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:07.410 And, it's interesting thinking about faith and the relationship to well-being. 00:12:07.710 --> 00:12:14.750 One of the, variables what, we were interested in looking at was, comes out of that whole literature of discrepancy theory. 00:12:14.750 --> 00:12:17.310 I don't know if people are are familiar with that. 00:12:17.310 --> 00:12:21.525 But it's that idea of thinking I'm falling short. 00:12:21.585 --> 00:12:21.825 Right? 00:12:21.825 --> 00:12:25.525 If I like, I should be here, but I'm only here. 00:12:25.745 --> 00:12:27.585 Now that applies to academic work. 00:12:27.585 --> 00:12:27.985 Right? 00:12:27.985 --> 00:12:29.745 Very prevalent amongst students. 00:12:29.745 --> 00:12:32.145 I should have a's, but I maybe had a b plus. 00:12:32.145 --> 00:12:34.040 I I should have all these friends. 00:12:34.040 --> 00:12:35.640 I should have all these Facebook friends. 00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:36.140 Right? 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:48.855 So discrepancy theory shows whenever a student or a person has a sense of falling short, not being where they should be or would wanna be, it's pretty highly linked to depressive thoughts and feelings. 00:12:49.555 --> 00:12:53.575 So what we found is that that can also apply to spirituality. 00:12:54.435 --> 00:12:56.595 Feeling like, I'm feeling a little down. 00:12:56.595 --> 00:12:59.655 Why I should be fine because I'm a Christian. 00:13:00.050 --> 00:13:02.390 Why I should just pray more and I'm sure I'm fine. 00:13:03.010 --> 00:13:05.990 And that thought pattern actually adds to depression. 00:13:06.530 --> 00:13:15.395 If if somebody goes down that path, we found actually a pretty strong relationship correlation to more depressive, symptomology. 00:13:16.255 --> 00:13:21.155 So and I think the pastor, the priest is coming alongside and reevaluating. 00:13:22.175 --> 00:13:22.415 Right? 00:13:22.415 --> 00:13:24.595 How how am I processing my faith? 00:13:24.815 --> 00:13:29.390 Am I having those supportive networks and interactions with people? 00:13:30.170 --> 00:13:38.090 Am I having this work work sense of faith where I always feel like I should be better, further? 00:13:38.090 --> 00:13:38.750 You know? 00:13:38.810 --> 00:13:39.610 That's a great point. 00:13:39.610 --> 00:13:41.050 You know, there's a saying out there. 00:13:41.050 --> 00:13:43.470 You know, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. 00:13:43.985 --> 00:13:44.305 Yeah. 00:13:44.305 --> 00:13:49.665 And that kind of perfectionist in our perfectionism in our spiritual life can be can actually be dangerous. 00:13:49.665 --> 00:13:49.905 Right? 00:13:49.905 --> 00:13:56.165 When we feel like, you know, I should be better, we're we're all gonna fall short in one way or another. 00:13:56.385 --> 00:13:56.705 You know? 00:13:56.705 --> 00:14:09.660 And we really need to to understand that and have a certain, a certain humility and a certain trust in the Holy Spirit and trust in God's God's grace and God's presence in our lives to deal with our own failures. 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:24.125 Or maybe even too, you know, parents with children, I mean, how they, develop their children spiritually as well so that they don't create sort of a sense of, you know, I need to be perfect. 00:14:24.125 --> 00:14:38.830 And when when things aren't perfect and when we fall into any kind of, sin or anything like that, that we we really need to be, you know, understanding and and helping them to see this as as god would see it and understand his his great mercy. 00:14:38.890 --> 00:14:39.390 Right? 00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:45.915 And that kinda goes with the, right, that whole body of literature on forgiveness and emotional well-being. 00:14:46.215 --> 00:14:58.100 You know, doctor Enright and some of his research showing how important it is to have understand forgiveness, experience forgiveness to be able to let go of certain things, and we see a huge link to emotional well-being. 00:14:58.800 --> 00:14:58.960 Yes. 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:02.820 It's almost like sometimes we put the the bar higher for ourselves than God does. 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.320 And I realized that he, you know, he he made us. 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:07.920 He knows exactly who we are. 00:15:07.920 --> 00:15:09.920 He knows exactly what we're made of. 00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:21.315 You know, we just need to to really make an act of it really takes some faith, actually, in in a way to to be able to accept ourselves, accept accept our own shortcomings. 00:15:21.535 --> 00:15:22.035 Right? 00:15:22.335 --> 00:15:22.655 Yeah. 00:15:22.655 --> 00:15:23.950 So and that's interesting. 00:15:23.950 --> 00:15:36.930 It was really interesting for us that we could find students who rated a high discrepancy between where they should their perception of where they should be versus where they perceive themselves did score higher on depression inventories. 00:15:37.675 --> 00:15:42.495 So that was an interesting piece, you know, to see from the data. 00:15:42.875 --> 00:15:45.135 And then, you know, I know you you mentioned the other perfectionism. 00:15:47.355 --> 00:15:48.075 What did you say? 00:15:48.075 --> 00:15:48.635 I see a lot. 00:15:48.635 --> 00:15:49.115 I don't know. 00:15:49.115 --> 00:15:51.980 I you you you have your own children, Joel, doctor. 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:54.140 Honestly, I don't have children, obviously. 00:15:54.140 --> 00:16:17.935 But seems like today, as opposed to when I was growing up, you know, thirty, forty years ago, sometimes it seems like some families put so much pressure and that maybe and also the culture in general, like, the younger children need to be performing at a high level in second and third grade because then they won't get into a particular high school, which means then they won't get into a bigger college. 00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:21.460 Do you see that as contributing to this? 00:16:21.460 --> 00:16:24.980 And then when you get to the college, they they, they feel like, oh my god. 00:16:24.980 --> 00:16:25.620 I'm here now. 00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:31.305 I better not I better not, fail here or even just be subpar in any way. 00:16:32.025 --> 00:16:41.085 I read a study just a little while ago that discussed, kind of almost a burnout syndrome amongst young college students. 00:16:41.545 --> 00:16:52.780 And I think discussing this this push, right, high school, SAT scores, ACT scores, GPA, scholarships, pushing through take dual credits. 00:16:53.320 --> 00:17:02.185 So when you get into college, students having this fatigue, kinda coming out of those high school years. 00:17:02.325 --> 00:17:14.905 So I I don't I'm not I'm sure there's more literature out there, and that is just one study I saw a little while ago, which I I could see, you know, there is a lot of pressure on young young people. 00:17:15.250 --> 00:17:16.790 And in parenting. 00:17:16.850 --> 00:17:17.010 Right? 00:17:17.010 --> 00:17:33.845 And how how to how to go against the grain, how to go against the, the currents of the culture today in in sort of make it even harder for kids to grow up feeling feeling like they need to be perfect and get straight a's and everything else their entire life. 00:17:34.065 --> 00:17:34.565 Yeah. 00:17:35.105 --> 00:17:44.970 Social media has contributed to that because kids are exposed to so many more, people to compare themselves to. 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:52.510 You know, when I was growing up, it was my class and my friends in the neighborhood, and that's pretty much who I interacted with. 00:17:52.970 --> 00:18:05.195 Now you can interact with countless people and get a sense of what they're doing, and everything is, with the photos or the best photos and the best descriptions in Facebook and everything else. 00:18:05.195 --> 00:18:11.775 And and and there's so many other way there's so many more ways for kids to judge themselves compared to other people. 00:18:12.220 --> 00:18:15.120 Is do you see that as a as a contributing factor? 00:18:16.060 --> 00:18:16.300 Yeah. 00:18:16.300 --> 00:18:19.120 I think that goes back to the whole discrepancy theory. 00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:19.760 Right? 00:18:19.820 --> 00:18:24.555 That shows that linked to emotional struggle because you're right. 00:18:24.555 --> 00:18:27.695 I can compare myself to to endless. 00:18:27.835 --> 00:18:28.235 Right? 00:18:28.235 --> 00:18:32.735 All the YouTube channels people have, all the social media pieces. 00:18:33.355 --> 00:18:45.150 So the ability to compare and perceive myself as falling short or maybe fostering that thinking of why I should be I I I could be. 00:18:45.370 --> 00:19:00.345 Ideally, I would like to be, looking like this, doing this, you know, having these accomplishments, I think gives more opportunity for perceived discrepancy, which then would be linked to emotional struggle and depression. 00:19:00.485 --> 00:19:03.285 Well, doctor Clausley, this is a very, very interesting topic. 00:19:03.285 --> 00:19:07.440 And again, thank you so much for, for being with us today. 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:27.425 And I would, I would recommend that anyone anybody who has, you know, questions, would like to learn more about this, might go to our website, divinemercy.edu, look at the different programs that are available and, and and and consider, you know, maybe, being a student here at Divine Mercy University. 00:19:27.485 --> 00:19:38.020 And, you know, one of the things, doctor Klaus is the director of our online master's in psychology, and if you're interested in doing this kind of research, Maybe she can just tell us briefly. 00:19:38.020 --> 00:19:45.000 We have a project each per each student does what's called a capstone, well, in this area, if they were interested in depression and college students and those kinds of things. 00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:45.380 Yeah. 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:49.560 So the capstone is a a project our students work on throughout the whole program. 00:19:50.295 --> 00:19:54.555 It's a great opportunity to dig deeper, go deeper in one area. 00:19:55.975 --> 00:20:05.720 We start out in the beginning of the program thinking of what's a problem that I've observed, that I'd love to address, that that has, you know, that could be couples struggling in my parish. 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:07.340 It could be college students depressed. 00:20:08.280 --> 00:20:12.300 We've had quite a few focus missionaries, studying with us. 00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:19.480 So the caps on then, they will think through the research literature, psychological research literature. 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:26.515 They will think through theological, philosophical, integrative literature to understand that phenomenon better. 00:20:26.735 --> 00:20:30.275 And then in the end, towards the end of the program, we'll develop an intervention. 00:20:31.775 --> 00:20:32.815 It could be a retreat. 00:20:32.815 --> 00:20:39.120 It could be a mentoring program that they, write a proposal how to address that problem. 00:20:39.500 --> 00:20:41.500 So I've I've loved working with our students. 00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:43.760 I've done a lot of advising on capstone projects. 00:20:44.300 --> 00:20:54.975 Really have enjoyed seeing students develop different interventions, programs that they can take to their parishes or places of work in ministry, to address different issues. 00:20:55.515 --> 00:20:55.835 Great. 00:20:55.835 --> 00:20:56.395 Well, thank you. 00:20:56.395 --> 00:20:56.795 Yeah. 00:20:56.795 --> 00:20:59.035 More information at divinemercy.edu. 00:20:59.035 --> 00:21:08.770 Doctor Clausley, thank you so much again for, for being with us, and, we look forward to having you on again and, discussing another, very, very important topic. 00:21:09.310 --> 00:21:09.630 Yeah. 00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:11.390 Thank you so much for having me. 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:12.610 So nice to be here.