Welcome to the Cult to Flourish podcast.
My name is Thomas Kronquist.
I'm your cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father Charles, how are you today?
I'm doing great, Tom.
How are you?
Doing well.
We have a really interesting show today.
We have, doctor Julia Klausley, who joined the faculty of Divine Mercy University in 2016, mostly teaching in the area of statistics and research methods, but also serving as a capstone adviser.
She received her doctoral training at UT Dallas, where she also worked as a postdoctoral fellow focusing on research in the area of parent child and marital interaction analysis, marriage and parenting, as well as father care.
She has done further research work in the area of effectiveness of relationship focused child care.
She is going to talk to us today about spirituality, the importance of spirituality in marital relationships.
So doctor Klausley, welcome.
Thank you.
So good to be here.
It's It's good to have you.
We have a a number of interesting questions.
I think this is a topic that's going to, be of interest to a lot of people, spirituality and marriage.
A lot of marriages are struggling.
A lot of marriages are looking to couples are looking to grow.
And tell us, in in general, the the importance of spirituality in in marriage, how how important is that?
What does that mean?
Yeah.
That's a thank you.
Great question.
So I think, just as a background, you know, initially, my interest getting into this area of research was, as we probably all know, some couples in our parishes who are struggling or maybe not flourishing the way we would love for them to flourish and, hoping, you know, to to find ways to support, these couples more effectively.
So, it seems that spirituality has an effect on how we're doing as couples, our marital relationships.
And, but what we, I think, have not, in the research literature, maybe quite understood well enough is what aspect of spirituality are we talking about?
Is it just going to mass?
Is that good enough?
Do we need to pray for each other, with each other, reading scripture together, small group bible study?
Right?
What aspect of spirituality, is the piece that is really helpful for the couple.
Doctor Klausy, a lot of people, may want to get married, and there's not a good understanding of the other person's spirituality.
And, maybe, you know, maybe not even the same religion.
So maybe sometimes they're interreligion.
You know, you have a, maybe a Jewish or a nonbeliever with a Christian or a Catholic.
Or within Christianity, you have a Catholic and a non Catholic Christian.
And, what what, how do you, talk to people like that?
And what what what what do they need to be concerned about, or what should they think about before they get married?
Yeah.
That's a great question.
So So I think there is some some good research literature that says non shared faith belief systems are a risk factor in terms of marital satisfaction and functioning.
That's just a I think there's a pretty good body of literature showing that.
What we found in our data collection the last couple years, what was so interesting is that that understanding of marriage in terms of vocation really was very predictive of, other areas of relationship functioning.
So if if both partners come into the relationship, into the marriage, and with a view of this is a vocation, a god given vocation, is not just contractual, but this is a god given vocation.
We saw in our data higher willingness to grow in communication or better communication skills, more shared aspects of spirituality, which then translated in higher satisfaction.
And by vocation, we mean a calling or really what god has asked us to do or put us here to do, and, like, a purpose, right, for for our relationship, a purpose for our life.
That's so important in many areas of life.
And so so the sense of a vocation and so seeing god's hand in, in this marriage, in this relationship is critical.
And, I guess, so what are some of the benefits, of of having that that common understanding of seeing seeing marriage as a vocation?
So what we found in our data in the last couple years that couples who both share that view of vocation, so it's not a, you know, fix it all, but I think it it it gives an encouragement towards wanting to invest in the relationship.
Right?
This is a god given, life calling I'm in.
So we saw couples, being willing to invest more in shared experiences, to grow in communication, to work on conflict.
So and then that, of course, translated into better functioning, more satisfaction in the relationship.
When you speak of shared experiences, do are we talking about praying together, going on a a retreat together, or you or just, you know, hanging out watching television?
So so that's a super interesting question.
So when I got interested in this area and started reading one of the research literature, there's actually a huge lack in the research literature on understanding that link between spirituality and marriage.
So there's relatively very few studies, and that is kind of the question.
So is just going to mass together good enough?
Right?
We're both committed to our faith.
We go to mass maybe several times a week or at least once a week.
What our dataset is that in itself does not really translate, maybe some but not enough, into flourishing in your marriage.
But if that translates into having a renewed view of marriage as a vocation and maybe discussing spiritual topics together, that was one of our strongest predictors, actually.
Couples who discuss spiritual topics with one another did better in their relationship.
So in a sense, we're we're speaking sort of a, a, interpersonal a certain, intimacy on a spiritual level, right, to share what's going on inside those deepest things, and, that's gonna be very powerful in a relationship.
And, and on the other hand, if, you know, if it's not there, what are some of the problems that can happen?
Or is there research that shows Mhmm.
You know, that?
Yeah.
And that's, that's a good question.
So I think there is maybe a little easier to have a little bit of a distance and maybe a little faster to slip into relationship ambivalence, maybe parallel lives.
Right?
I have my faith.
I do my job, my life.
The other person is his or hers.
But that spiritual intimacy, that discussing of spiritual topics, that view of helping the other person grow, praying for the other spouse.
There's actually good literature showing that, that translates into better marital functioning as well.
No wonder yeah.
I wonder you know, one of my parents, they used to they were they're about been married over fifty years.
And, one of my priest friends, we went over and visited with them, and they were right after their fiftieth anniversary.
He said, well, what was the secret?
You know?
And I was, well, I never, no.
We never went to bed angry at each other.
Mhmm.
So, like, the topic of forgiveness and asking for forgiveness, seems to me that would be a spiritual shared experience some of that spiritual intimacy.
Mhmm.
What how would you think of that, or would you agree with that?
Yeah.
I think definitely forgiveness.
I mean, we know in general, right, from the research literature that forgiveness is hugely related to outcome, well-being, relationship functioning.
So definitely a piece.
And as we see also with that variable of spiritual discussing spiritual topics, if I engage with my partner and we discuss why we had a conflict, why we were angry, seeking forgiveness, we're engaging.
Right?
We're we're deescalating.
We're engaging.
We're not escalating the conflict, which I think is always positive then for the relationship.
It's interesting that, this topic being married and having children, I'm thinking about the things that you're saying.
And I realized that, in our relationship, I think I have a good relationship with my wife.
The focus is is on is on is on a higher value.
It's on it's on our Lord.
We're not we're not always just looking into ourselves or at each other.
We're striving for a common goal.
And I think that that helps us to and I see couples I think we all do.
Couples that struggle, and not not to sound judgmental, but, they're it's easy to become too focused on oneself or on the spouse, the problems you perceive in the other person, etcetera, etcetera.
But when you raise your your your vision to a to a higher level, you're looking at something something common, and and and that it it puts you in a common trajectory.
Yeah.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
I think also that thinking of how can I bless my spouse?
Right?
How can be I can be a blessing.
I can be a tool in my spouse's flourishing already puts everybody on a very different mindset.
Right?
Alpha is not defending my rights, what I need, what I want, but I'm also considering, well, what what is my part in helping my spouse flourish and grow in his or her walk with God.
We we have a very different dynamic going on in the in the relationship.
You're touching a very profound point there.
You know, the catechism of Catholic church talks about the, the purpose, the end of marriage, and it's about the salvation of others.
It says there's only two sacraments in the church that are ordered to the salvation of others.
One, of course, is holy orders to the priest, and the priest dedicates his life to to that, to helping sanctify people.
Now the true flourishing at the end of the day is flourishing with our heavenly father forever.
But it said the the second and I think a lot of times we talk about a sense of vocation, a sense of, flourishing, and and really, serving our family, serving, the spouse is serving each other as you're saying, is just so fundamental to what what we're talking about here.
And so, I think that's very important, right, to to think that idea of vocation, that idea of ultimate flirtation is giving oneself for the other and and and kind of which many times can be psychologically healthy.
I'm sorry.
We we joke at home.
You know?
I'm I'm I'm helping you to get to heaven.
You know?
I'm I'm I'm here to help you to get to heaven, and and that makes a lot of sense.
But would you have advice to, to couples who are struggling, struggling in the area of spirituality, particular advice, for them, how they can improve in their relationship?
I think what's really important is to not take for granted that you should have a good marriage.
You're both in the church, so things should just be fine.
But, you know, we did some, one study in the last couple years on the effects of premarital education and and the teaching and how long does that effect last.
And what we found is really after three, four years already, there's kind of a need for renewal, for for encouragement, to continue thinking of marriage as vocation.
Right?
You you have that premarital education.
You you have a sense, god has called me to this, and you get married, then life happens.
Right?
Jobs, kids, moves, whatever.
And all of a sudden, that sense of, wow, this is my god god's calling for my life to bless my spouse and to be together, kind of falls out of focus a little bit.
So and that was really fascinating that, when we did some data collection, we could see, and when we did length of marriage after three, four years ish, all of a sudden, the sense of vocation didn't seem so much predictive anymore.
So what I would say couples just to take the time to invest in your relationship.
Right?
If that is your god given relationship that you're gonna share your whole life in, do do not take for granted that, well, we go to mass every Sunday.
We're active in the parish.
But to say, well, to to invest, how can we grow spiritually together?
How can we get support for that?
You know, we're really blessed and excited to have you here at Divine Mercy University.
As Tom said at the beginning, you're the director of our master's in psychology online, and program.
It's a master's online.
It's a, about two year program.
And, so two two two two parts of that.
We're really excited.
A lot of the students are, like, doing a lot of great, research.
But first, could you see how does the DMU DMU vision of the person, help this kind of, study that you did, number one?
And number two, are there any other topics that you see that might be good for further research in this area?
And could a a student at DMU work on some of that kind of research?
Because I know they do us they do a research project.
So it's kind of a two part question.
Like, how does our how does our way of doing this make a difference?
And secondly, what what would be some other areas that would be very interesting to research?
So that's a great question.
So one of the things I have loved in working with our students in the MSB is walking alongside their capstone projects.
We have a lot of people who are in different ministry settings and who have written on wanting to support couples, wanting to support families.
So, you know, for them diving into the research literature to to be more effective in those areas has been really, great opportunity to walk alongside that.
And, actually, one of our research studies that we have done the last couple years is with the one of the MSP graduates and alumni.
She went through the program.
She is in charge of, marriage and family issues in her whole diocese.
And she approached us and says, well, could you help us know if what we're doing is effective or not?
So, we did some data collection.
There was a question about would we implement mentor couples across the whole diocese?
And we're like, what?
Is there any data on this?
And we're like she's like, no.
So we we joined, and we did some research together looking at, how can you make mentor couples more effective.
And so that collaboration between diocese and parishes and research skills, you know, is is very exciting to me.
It's it's a very fruitful way of using research, right, That benefits the ministry and the different diocese.
What can students do if they wanna if they're interested or someone out there who might wanna come here and study in your program, how would they, get in touch with you?
They can just go, website, admissions.
Right?
There's always a chat box that pops up.
You can email, admissions.
So there's great people working with people who are interested.
Divinemercy.edu, the website.
Right?
Yes.
We'd love that anyone who's interested, we'd really love to hear from you.
And, one of the things we really wanna do is do more research to serve the church and serve, serve society by doing that.
And, you know, with all the different issues we have out there in the world today, nothing could be more important than the family, I don't think.
And to have a strong family, we need strong marriages.
So thank you for doing this study, doctor Klaus.
Very important work, and, hopefully, more and more people will will start to see marriage as a calling, as a vocation, as something that god has planned for them, and his hand is there.
Doctor Klausley, thank you so much for this interesting, interesting talk, this interesting podcast.
We look forward to talking with you again on another topic.
But, again, thank you for your time and all you do here at Divine Mercy University, and, we look forward to, for the next, next time we can, we can speak with you.
Have a wonderful day.
Thank you.
Looking forward to it.
Mhmm.
Bye.
God bless.