WEBVTT 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:10.740 Welcome to the Cult to Flourish podcast. 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:12.900 My name is Thomas Kronquist. 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:17.885 I'm your cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University. 00:00:17.885 --> 00:00:19.505 Father Charles, how are you today? 00:00:19.805 --> 00:00:20.685 I'm doing great, Tom. 00:00:20.685 --> 00:00:21.425 How are you? 00:00:21.645 --> 00:00:22.125 Doing well. 00:00:22.125 --> 00:00:24.045 We have a really interesting show today. 00:00:24.045 --> 00:00:37.300 We have, doctor Julia Klausley, who joined the faculty of Divine Mercy University in 2016, mostly teaching in the area of statistics and research methods, but also serving as a capstone adviser. 00:00:38.080 --> 00:00:52.215 She received her doctoral training at UT Dallas, where she also worked as a postdoctoral fellow focusing on research in the area of parent child and marital interaction analysis, marriage and parenting, as well as father care. 00:00:52.435 --> 00:00:58.210 She has done further research work in the area of effectiveness of relationship focused child care. 00:00:58.990 --> 00:01:05.090 She is going to talk to us today about spirituality, the importance of spirituality in marital relationships. 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:07.650 So doctor Klausley, welcome. 00:01:08.110 --> 00:01:08.670 Thank you. 00:01:08.670 --> 00:01:09.970 So good to be here. 00:01:10.270 --> 00:01:11.465 It's It's good to have you. 00:01:11.465 --> 00:01:13.465 We have a a number of interesting questions. 00:01:13.465 --> 00:01:18.745 I think this is a topic that's going to, be of interest to a lot of people, spirituality and marriage. 00:01:18.745 --> 00:01:20.345 A lot of marriages are struggling. 00:01:20.345 --> 00:01:26.150 A lot of marriages are looking to couples are looking to grow. 00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:33.030 And tell us, in in general, the the importance of spirituality in in marriage, how how important is that? 00:01:33.030 --> 00:01:34.010 What does that mean? 00:01:34.710 --> 00:01:34.950 Yeah. 00:01:34.950 --> 00:01:35.990 That's a thank you. 00:01:35.990 --> 00:01:36.730 Great question. 00:01:37.085 --> 00:02:00.480 So I think, just as a background, you know, initially, my interest getting into this area of research was, as we probably all know, some couples in our parishes who are struggling or maybe not flourishing the way we would love for them to flourish and, hoping, you know, to to find ways to support, these couples more effectively. 00:02:01.260 --> 00:02:09.815 So, it seems that spirituality has an effect on how we're doing as couples, our marital relationships. 00:02:10.755 --> 00:02:20.775 And, but what we, I think, have not, in the research literature, maybe quite understood well enough is what aspect of spirituality are we talking about? 00:02:21.180 --> 00:02:22.940 Is it just going to mass? 00:02:22.940 --> 00:02:24.000 Is that good enough? 00:02:24.700 --> 00:02:30.860 Do we need to pray for each other, with each other, reading scripture together, small group bible study? 00:02:30.860 --> 00:02:31.100 Right? 00:02:31.100 --> 00:02:37.275 What aspect of spirituality, is the piece that is really helpful for the couple. 00:02:38.055 --> 00:02:49.275 Doctor Klausy, a lot of people, may want to get married, and there's not a good understanding of the other person's spirituality. 00:02:50.370 --> 00:02:54.130 And, maybe, you know, maybe not even the same religion. 00:02:54.130 --> 00:02:55.670 So maybe sometimes they're interreligion. 00:02:55.970 --> 00:03:00.550 You know, you have a, maybe a Jewish or a nonbeliever with a Christian or a Catholic. 00:03:01.170 --> 00:03:04.710 Or within Christianity, you have a Catholic and a non Catholic Christian. 00:03:05.235 --> 00:03:10.435 And, what what, how do you, talk to people like that? 00:03:10.435 --> 00:03:16.135 And what what what what do they need to be concerned about, or what should they think about before they get married? 00:03:17.075 --> 00:03:17.315 Yeah. 00:03:17.315 --> 00:03:18.375 That's a great question. 00:03:18.435 --> 00:03:31.180 So So I think there is some some good research literature that says non shared faith belief systems are a risk factor in terms of marital satisfaction and functioning. 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:34.895 That's just a I think there's a pretty good body of literature showing that. 00:03:35.515 --> 00:03:50.720 What we found in our data collection the last couple years, what was so interesting is that that understanding of marriage in terms of vocation really was very predictive of, other areas of relationship functioning. 00:03:51.260 --> 00:04:04.855 So if if both partners come into the relationship, into the marriage, and with a view of this is a vocation, a god given vocation, is not just contractual, but this is a god given vocation. 00:04:05.795 --> 00:04:20.160 We saw in our data higher willingness to grow in communication or better communication skills, more shared aspects of spirituality, which then translated in higher satisfaction. 00:04:20.460 --> 00:04:32.905 And by vocation, we mean a calling or really what god has asked us to do or put us here to do, and, like, a purpose, right, for for our relationship, a purpose for our life. 00:04:32.905 --> 00:04:35.145 That's so important in many areas of life. 00:04:35.145 --> 00:04:45.800 And so so the sense of a vocation and so seeing god's hand in, in this marriage, in this relationship is critical. 00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:56.360 And, I guess, so what are some of the benefits, of of having that that common understanding of seeing seeing marriage as a vocation? 00:04:56.795 --> 00:05:11.570 So what we found in our data in the last couple years that couples who both share that view of vocation, so it's not a, you know, fix it all, but I think it it it gives an encouragement towards wanting to invest in the relationship. 00:05:11.870 --> 00:05:12.110 Right? 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:15.810 This is a god given, life calling I'm in. 00:05:15.950 --> 00:05:25.875 So we saw couples, being willing to invest more in shared experiences, to grow in communication, to work on conflict. 00:05:26.335 --> 00:05:32.915 So and then that, of course, translated into better functioning, more satisfaction in the relationship. 00:05:33.295 --> 00:05:42.890 When you speak of shared experiences, do are we talking about praying together, going on a a retreat together, or you or just, you know, hanging out watching television? 00:05:43.190 --> 00:05:45.530 So so that's a super interesting question. 00:05:45.830 --> 00:05:56.410 So when I got interested in this area and started reading one of the research literature, there's actually a huge lack in the research literature on understanding that link between spirituality and marriage. 00:05:56.950 --> 00:06:02.365 So there's relatively very few studies, and that is kind of the question. 00:06:02.365 --> 00:06:06.445 So is just going to mass together good enough? 00:06:06.445 --> 00:06:06.765 Right? 00:06:06.765 --> 00:06:08.365 We're both committed to our faith. 00:06:08.365 --> 00:06:12.225 We go to mass maybe several times a week or at least once a week. 00:06:13.070 --> 00:06:23.810 What our dataset is that in itself does not really translate, maybe some but not enough, into flourishing in your marriage. 00:06:24.190 --> 00:06:36.685 But if that translates into having a renewed view of marriage as a vocation and maybe discussing spiritual topics together, that was one of our strongest predictors, actually. 00:06:37.065 --> 00:06:43.920 Couples who discuss spiritual topics with one another did better in their relationship. 00:06:44.540 --> 00:06:59.285 So in a sense, we're we're speaking sort of a, a, interpersonal a certain, intimacy on a spiritual level, right, to share what's going on inside those deepest things, and, that's gonna be very powerful in a relationship. 00:06:59.345 --> 00:07:05.105 And, and on the other hand, if, you know, if it's not there, what are some of the problems that can happen? 00:07:05.105 --> 00:07:07.465 Or is there research that shows Mhmm. 00:07:07.585 --> 00:07:08.325 You know, that? 00:07:09.025 --> 00:07:09.185 Yeah. 00:07:09.185 --> 00:07:11.285 And that's, that's a good question. 00:07:11.730 --> 00:07:22.950 So I think there is maybe a little easier to have a little bit of a distance and maybe a little faster to slip into relationship ambivalence, maybe parallel lives. 00:07:23.410 --> 00:07:23.730 Right? 00:07:23.730 --> 00:07:24.690 I have my faith. 00:07:24.690 --> 00:07:26.790 I do my job, my life. 00:07:27.035 --> 00:07:29.135 The other person is his or hers. 00:07:30.155 --> 00:07:40.175 But that spiritual intimacy, that discussing of spiritual topics, that view of helping the other person grow, praying for the other spouse. 00:07:40.850 --> 00:07:46.070 There's actually good literature showing that, that translates into better marital functioning as well. 00:07:46.770 --> 00:07:47.490 No wonder yeah. 00:07:47.490 --> 00:07:52.370 I wonder you know, one of my parents, they used to they were they're about been married over fifty years. 00:07:52.370 --> 00:07:59.035 And, one of my priest friends, we went over and visited with them, and they were right after their fiftieth anniversary. 00:07:59.095 --> 00:08:00.695 He said, well, what was the secret? 00:08:00.695 --> 00:08:00.935 You know? 00:08:00.935 --> 00:08:03.175 And I was, well, I never, no. 00:08:03.175 --> 00:08:05.910 We never went to bed angry at each other. 00:08:06.310 --> 00:08:06.810 Mhmm. 00:08:07.350 --> 00:08:16.010 So, like, the topic of forgiveness and asking for forgiveness, seems to me that would be a spiritual shared experience some of that spiritual intimacy. 00:08:16.310 --> 00:08:16.810 Mhmm. 00:08:17.830 --> 00:08:20.625 What how would you think of that, or would you agree with that? 00:08:20.945 --> 00:08:21.025 Yeah. 00:08:21.025 --> 00:08:22.405 I think definitely forgiveness. 00:08:22.545 --> 00:08:31.505 I mean, we know in general, right, from the research literature that forgiveness is hugely related to outcome, well-being, relationship functioning. 00:08:31.505 --> 00:08:33.505 So definitely a piece. 00:08:33.505 --> 00:08:46.990 And as we see also with that variable of spiritual discussing spiritual topics, if I engage with my partner and we discuss why we had a conflict, why we were angry, seeking forgiveness, we're engaging. 00:08:47.290 --> 00:08:47.610 Right? 00:08:47.610 --> 00:08:49.085 We're we're deescalating. 00:08:49.785 --> 00:08:50.605 We're engaging. 00:08:50.985 --> 00:08:55.965 We're not escalating the conflict, which I think is always positive then for the relationship. 00:08:56.665 --> 00:09:03.000 It's interesting that, this topic being married and having children, I'm thinking about the things that you're saying. 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:09.260 And I realized that, in our relationship, I think I have a good relationship with my wife. 00:09:09.800 --> 00:09:14.895 The focus is is on is on is on a higher value. 00:09:14.895 --> 00:09:16.575 It's on it's on our Lord. 00:09:16.575 --> 00:09:21.475 We're not we're not always just looking into ourselves or at each other. 00:09:21.775 --> 00:09:23.715 We're striving for a common goal. 00:09:24.255 --> 00:09:29.620 And I think that that helps us to and I see couples I think we all do. 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:43.000 Couples that struggle, and not not to sound judgmental, but, they're it's easy to become too focused on oneself or on the spouse, the problems you perceive in the other person, etcetera, etcetera. 00:09:43.445 --> 00:09:54.425 But when you raise your your your vision to a to a higher level, you're looking at something something common, and and and that it it puts you in a common trajectory. 00:09:54.965 --> 00:09:55.205 Yeah. 00:09:55.205 --> 00:09:56.940 I think that makes a lot of sense. 00:09:56.940 --> 00:10:01.680 I think also that thinking of how can I bless my spouse? 00:10:01.820 --> 00:10:02.060 Right? 00:10:02.060 --> 00:10:03.740 How can be I can be a blessing. 00:10:03.740 --> 00:10:12.335 I can be a tool in my spouse's flourishing already puts everybody on a very different mindset. 00:10:12.955 --> 00:10:13.275 Right? 00:10:13.275 --> 00:10:25.220 Alpha is not defending my rights, what I need, what I want, but I'm also considering, well, what what is my part in helping my spouse flourish and grow in his or her walk with God. 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:29.940 We we have a very different dynamic going on in the in the relationship. 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.040 You're touching a very profound point there. 00:10:33.040 --> 00:10:41.395 You know, the catechism of Catholic church talks about the, the purpose, the end of marriage, and it's about the salvation of others. 00:10:41.395 --> 00:10:46.295 It says there's only two sacraments in the church that are ordered to the salvation of others. 00:10:46.595 --> 00:10:53.480 One, of course, is holy orders to the priest, and the priest dedicates his life to to that, to helping sanctify people. 00:10:53.540 --> 00:10:58.120 Now the true flourishing at the end of the day is flourishing with our heavenly father forever. 00:10:59.300 --> 00:11:17.035 But it said the the second and I think a lot of times we talk about a sense of vocation, a sense of, flourishing, and and really, serving our family, serving, the spouse is serving each other as you're saying, is just so fundamental to what what we're talking about here. 00:11:17.895 --> 00:11:30.680 And so, I think that's very important, right, to to think that idea of vocation, that idea of ultimate flirtation is giving oneself for the other and and and kind of which many times can be psychologically healthy. 00:11:31.060 --> 00:11:31.460 I'm sorry. 00:11:31.460 --> 00:11:32.740 We we joke at home. 00:11:32.740 --> 00:11:33.060 You know? 00:11:33.060 --> 00:11:35.300 I'm I'm I'm helping you to get to heaven. 00:11:35.300 --> 00:11:35.700 You know? 00:11:35.700 --> 00:11:38.820 I'm I'm I'm here to help you to get to heaven, and and that makes a lot of sense. 00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:50.335 But would you have advice to, to couples who are struggling, struggling in the area of spirituality, particular advice, for them, how they can improve in their relationship? 00:11:50.715 --> 00:11:58.830 I think what's really important is to not take for granted that you should have a good marriage. 00:11:59.290 --> 00:12:03.950 You're both in the church, so things should just be fine. 00:12:04.650 --> 00:12:14.565 But, you know, we did some, one study in the last couple years on the effects of premarital education and and the teaching and how long does that effect last. 00:12:15.185 --> 00:12:25.550 And what we found is really after three, four years already, there's kind of a need for renewal, for for encouragement, to continue thinking of marriage as vocation. 00:12:25.610 --> 00:12:25.850 Right? 00:12:25.850 --> 00:12:27.710 You you have that premarital education. 00:12:28.010 --> 00:12:32.510 You you have a sense, god has called me to this, and you get married, then life happens. 00:12:32.650 --> 00:12:33.130 Right? 00:12:33.130 --> 00:12:35.150 Jobs, kids, moves, whatever. 00:12:35.965 --> 00:12:46.465 And all of a sudden, that sense of, wow, this is my god god's calling for my life to bless my spouse and to be together, kind of falls out of focus a little bit. 00:12:46.605 --> 00:13:00.930 So and that was really fascinating that, when we did some data collection, we could see, and when we did length of marriage after three, four years ish, all of a sudden, the sense of vocation didn't seem so much predictive anymore. 00:13:01.230 --> 00:13:06.290 So what I would say couples just to take the time to invest in your relationship. 00:13:06.510 --> 00:13:07.010 Right? 00:13:07.125 --> 00:13:15.625 If that is your god given relationship that you're gonna share your whole life in, do do not take for granted that, well, we go to mass every Sunday. 00:13:15.845 --> 00:13:17.305 We're active in the parish. 00:13:17.525 --> 00:13:22.700 But to say, well, to to invest, how can we grow spiritually together? 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:24.540 How can we get support for that? 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:29.500 You know, we're really blessed and excited to have you here at Divine Mercy University. 00:13:30.520 --> 00:13:37.465 As Tom said at the beginning, you're the director of our master's in psychology online, and program. 00:13:37.465 --> 00:13:38.585 It's a master's online. 00:13:38.585 --> 00:13:40.925 It's a, about two year program. 00:13:41.145 --> 00:13:44.505 And, so two two two two parts of that. 00:13:44.505 --> 00:13:45.385 We're really excited. 00:13:45.385 --> 00:13:48.445 A lot of the students are, like, doing a lot of great, research. 00:13:49.090 --> 00:13:59.330 But first, could you see how does the DMU DMU vision of the person, help this kind of, study that you did, number one? 00:13:59.330 --> 00:14:06.325 And number two, are there any other topics that you see that might be good for further research in this area? 00:14:06.785 --> 00:14:12.065 And could a a student at DMU work on some of that kind of research? 00:14:12.065 --> 00:14:14.130 Because I know they do us they do a research project. 00:14:14.130 --> 00:14:15.490 So it's kind of a two part question. 00:14:15.490 --> 00:14:18.690 Like, how does our how does our way of doing this make a difference? 00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:23.430 And secondly, what what would be some other areas that would be very interesting to research? 00:14:24.050 --> 00:14:25.650 So that's a great question. 00:14:25.650 --> 00:14:34.525 So one of the things I have loved in working with our students in the MSB is walking alongside their capstone projects. 00:14:34.905 --> 00:14:42.860 We have a lot of people who are in different ministry settings and who have written on wanting to support couples, wanting to support families. 00:14:43.880 --> 00:14:53.735 So, you know, for them diving into the research literature to to be more effective in those areas has been really, great opportunity to walk alongside that. 00:14:54.115 --> 00:15:01.415 And, actually, one of our research studies that we have done the last couple years is with the one of the MSP graduates and alumni. 00:15:01.555 --> 00:15:02.935 She went through the program. 00:15:03.395 --> 00:15:08.480 She is in charge of, marriage and family issues in her whole diocese. 00:15:09.420 --> 00:15:14.880 And she approached us and says, well, could you help us know if what we're doing is effective or not? 00:15:15.580 --> 00:15:17.920 So, we did some data collection. 00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:22.095 There was a question about would we implement mentor couples across the whole diocese? 00:15:22.955 --> 00:15:24.335 And we're like, what? 00:15:24.955 --> 00:15:26.155 Is there any data on this? 00:15:26.155 --> 00:15:27.775 And we're like she's like, no. 00:15:27.835 --> 00:15:34.335 So we we joined, and we did some research together looking at, how can you make mentor couples more effective. 00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:43.880 And so that collaboration between diocese and parishes and research skills, you know, is is very exciting to me. 00:15:43.880 --> 00:15:50.295 It's it's a very fruitful way of using research, right, That benefits the ministry and the different diocese. 00:15:51.155 --> 00:15:59.155 What can students do if they wanna if they're interested or someone out there who might wanna come here and study in your program, how would they, get in touch with you? 00:15:59.315 --> 00:16:02.055 They can just go, website, admissions. 00:16:02.435 --> 00:16:02.910 Right? 00:16:02.990 --> 00:16:05.070 There's always a chat box that pops up. 00:16:05.070 --> 00:16:07.650 You can email, admissions. 00:16:08.590 --> 00:16:11.970 So there's great people working with people who are interested. 00:16:12.350 --> 00:16:14.450 Divinemercy.edu, the website. 00:16:14.590 --> 00:16:14.910 Right? 00:16:14.910 --> 00:16:15.410 Yes. 00:16:15.725 --> 00:16:19.725 We'd love that anyone who's interested, we'd really love to hear from you. 00:16:19.725 --> 00:16:27.485 And, one of the things we really wanna do is do more research to serve the church and serve, serve society by doing that. 00:16:27.485 --> 00:16:35.760 And, you know, with all the different issues we have out there in the world today, nothing could be more important than the family, I don't think. 00:16:37.180 --> 00:16:39.680 And to have a strong family, we need strong marriages. 00:16:39.820 --> 00:16:42.620 So thank you for doing this study, doctor Klaus. 00:16:42.620 --> 00:16:54.175 Very important work, and, hopefully, more and more people will will start to see marriage as a calling, as a vocation, as something that god has planned for them, and his hand is there. 00:16:54.395 --> 00:16:59.375 Doctor Klausley, thank you so much for this interesting, interesting talk, this interesting podcast. 00:17:00.630 --> 00:17:03.530 We look forward to talking with you again on another topic. 00:17:03.590 --> 00:17:12.550 But, again, thank you for your time and all you do here at Divine Mercy University, and, we look forward to, for the next, next time we can, we can speak with you. 00:17:12.550 --> 00:17:13.430 Have a wonderful day. 00:17:13.430 --> 00:17:13.750 Thank you. 00:17:13.750 --> 00:17:14.790 Looking forward to it. 00:17:14.790 --> 00:17:15.270 Mhmm. 00:17:15.270 --> 00:17:15.430 Bye. 00:17:15.430 --> 00:17:16.095 God bless.