WEBVTT 00:00:07.680 --> 00:00:09.860 Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast. 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:16.225 I'm Thomas Kronquist, your cohost, again with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University. 00:00:16.285 --> 00:00:17.325 Father, how are you today? 00:00:17.325 --> 00:00:18.445 I'm doing fine, Tom. 00:00:18.445 --> 00:00:19.325 I'm really excited. 00:00:19.325 --> 00:00:28.065 I think we have a great topic today, and we have, one of the one of the all time greats with us today, so that's why I'm really, excited about that. 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:36.700 Well, today we will discuss a very important topic, the importance of fatherhood and family structure for mental health and happiness. 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:39.400 Our guest is doctor Paul Vitz. 00:00:39.400 --> 00:00:47.215 Doctor Vitz is a senior scholar of psychology here at the Institute for Psychological Sciences, which is our school of psychology at Divine Mercy University. 00:00:47.215 --> 00:00:51.075 He's also professor emeritus at New York University. 00:00:52.735 --> 00:00:55.955 He has written many books and articles. 00:00:57.055 --> 00:01:14.905 Most notably, he's the coauthor of the recently published textbook, A Catholic Christian Meta Model of the Person, which has already won a prestigious expanded reason award given by the Vatican Foundation, Joseph Ratzinger, Benedict sixteenth, and University of Francisco de Vittoria in Spain. 00:01:15.365 --> 00:01:17.145 Doctor Vitts, how are you today? 00:01:17.525 --> 00:01:18.165 I'm fine. 00:01:18.165 --> 00:01:19.065 Thank you, Tom. 00:01:19.365 --> 00:01:20.825 Looking forward to all this. 00:01:21.285 --> 00:01:29.870 Well, that's an impressive resume, doctor Vitts, and, we're looking very much, very much looking forward to hearing you talk about this topic today. 00:01:30.490 --> 00:01:33.290 So, we have a number of questions for you, father. 00:01:33.290 --> 00:01:35.790 I don't know if you'd like to, to start. 00:01:36.570 --> 00:01:37.050 Sure, Tom. 00:01:37.050 --> 00:01:42.955 Well, you know, today's topic is gonna be on the importance of fatherhood, the importance of good fathers, which is so important in our society. 00:01:44.375 --> 00:01:46.135 So I'd just like maybe start off doctor. 00:01:46.135 --> 00:01:54.075 Bitz, could you just give us an overview of why you think, what is, what is the importance of fatherhood is, and why it's so critical today for our society? 00:01:55.190 --> 00:01:55.930 An overview. 00:01:55.990 --> 00:01:56.310 Okay. 00:01:56.310 --> 00:01:58.710 I guess that but I'll try to make it short. 00:01:58.710 --> 00:01:58.950 Right? 00:01:58.950 --> 00:02:00.730 Make it a five minute overview. 00:02:01.350 --> 00:02:11.655 Well, the importance of fathers for, the family, particularly for the children, is now it's been well established now for seventy years. 00:02:12.435 --> 00:02:23.095 The first big study came out in 1950 that showed that when fathers were absent from the family, juvenile delinquency was very, very much more probable amongst the children, particularly the boys. 00:02:23.610 --> 00:02:32.350 And so that has held up over seventy years and not just studies in this country, but in all over the world, England, South America, Asia. 00:02:33.050 --> 00:02:48.895 Many studies have shown that the absence of the father in the family makes the boys especially very prone to criminal behavior, very prone to criminal behavior and also to drug use, and this shows up in studies all over the world. 00:02:51.195 --> 00:02:55.400 Let's take a look at that, what that means just for this country. 00:02:55.540 --> 00:03:03.880 The United States has, I think, the largest prison population per capita of any country in the world. 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:11.605 And the most of those prisoners, the great majority of them, are basically young men who didn't have fathers. 00:03:12.545 --> 00:03:14.245 And the cost of that's enormous. 00:03:16.065 --> 00:03:19.125 First, there's the cost of the crime that got them in there. 00:03:19.345 --> 00:03:24.810 Second, there's the cost of the police enforcement in order to arrest them and take care of it. 00:03:25.110 --> 00:03:35.610 There's the cost of the the legal system that deals with it, and then there's the cost of housing them in these dormitories called prisons for fatherless boys. 00:03:36.475 --> 00:03:42.895 And that the cost of housing them is probably as much as a tuition to a private school would be. 00:03:43.995 --> 00:03:45.995 And finally, there's the big cost. 00:03:45.995 --> 00:03:52.350 And the big cost is the loss of years in the lives of millions of young men in this country. 00:03:53.290 --> 00:04:02.430 And so until we can deal with that problem, we've got an enormous cost in all of these areas, not just money, but socially. 00:04:03.255 --> 00:04:11.835 And the absence of fathers or of substitute fathers, which can be very helpful, is really the basic cause of that. 00:04:12.455 --> 00:04:14.615 Let me let me ask a follow-up question, doctor. 00:04:14.615 --> 00:04:18.795 So what what do you think it is about fatherhood that leads to crime? 00:04:19.070 --> 00:04:25.870 So the lack of a father figure, what about, you know, we hear so much today. 00:04:25.870 --> 00:04:34.205 Well, the the mother you have a good mother and a single mother and how how much how difficult that is, but it sounds like she can't make up for what the father brings? 00:04:34.985 --> 00:04:43.085 Especially with boys, but fathers bring self control and discipline to, particularly to the boys. 00:04:43.465 --> 00:04:46.740 You know, you can just you you don't have to be a a psychologist. 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:53.740 You can be the ordinary truck driver, and and the boy makes a smart remark to his mother, and the father says, shut up. 00:04:53.740 --> 00:04:55.340 That's my wife you're talking to. 00:04:55.340 --> 00:04:57.920 And, oh, you know, that doesn't. 00:04:57.980 --> 00:05:05.915 The older man sets up the discipline that boys begin to learn, and they learn it from their father. 00:05:06.615 --> 00:05:10.155 And I'll give you a funny example here. 00:05:11.095 --> 00:05:17.180 This was a study that was done with elephants in South Africa. 00:05:17.320 --> 00:05:17.820 Elephants. 00:05:17.880 --> 00:05:23.980 There was a there's a big, natural history park there, and they had a lot of elephants. 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:32.635 And they, for some reason, decided to take all the young male elephants, the young bull elephants, and put them together and take them away from the herd. 00:05:33.095 --> 00:05:40.475 So they had about, I think about 50 or a 100 of these young bull elephants all by themselves in another part of the park. 00:05:41.175 --> 00:05:45.915 And those bull elephants, those young ones started being wild beyond belief. 00:05:46.430 --> 00:05:48.590 They started, fighting with each other. 00:05:48.590 --> 00:05:50.530 They started attacking other animals. 00:05:50.670 --> 00:05:53.250 Then they began killing, rhinos. 00:05:54.030 --> 00:05:55.570 They've never seen this before. 00:05:56.190 --> 00:05:59.630 And the rhinos are protected too just like the elephants, so they said, my god. 00:05:59.630 --> 00:06:00.750 We've got a problem here. 00:06:00.750 --> 00:06:02.415 And they said, what should we do? 00:06:03.035 --> 00:06:10.255 Well, one smart, park ranger said, let's bring a bunch of old bull elephants down and put them in with these young male elephants. 00:06:10.875 --> 00:06:12.175 Well, that's what they did. 00:06:12.315 --> 00:06:18.910 They brought down a bunch of the old bulls, and somehow or other, they controlled the aggression of these young males. 00:06:19.130 --> 00:06:20.590 I don't know how they did it. 00:06:20.650 --> 00:06:23.230 You know, elephants don't spank each other. 00:06:23.770 --> 00:06:35.285 I don't know what the communication was, but the presence of the old bulls calm down the overexcited aggressiveness of the young bulls, and the problem went away. 00:06:36.065 --> 00:06:36.865 That's amazing. 00:06:36.865 --> 00:06:37.365 Wow. 00:06:37.825 --> 00:06:41.845 So but this is what fathers do with especially with their sons. 00:06:42.465 --> 00:06:43.605 And they're very helpful. 00:06:44.145 --> 00:06:50.050 You know, they they provide other things too besides self control, which is so important for men. 00:06:50.350 --> 00:06:53.010 They have to control both aggression and sexuality. 00:06:54.510 --> 00:06:56.670 But they provide other things for the family too. 00:06:56.670 --> 00:07:04.185 One of the things they provide is help with the daughters to separate and, you know, distinguish themselves from the mother. 00:07:05.045 --> 00:07:08.985 Separation and individuation is very important for every child. 00:07:09.525 --> 00:07:16.165 But somehow other boys find this a little easier than girls, and the girls get help from their dad on this. 00:07:16.165 --> 00:07:27.400 They have another adult to go to who can serve to help them separate in a positive way toward natural independence from the, over involvement with the mother. 00:07:28.420 --> 00:07:36.755 In addition, the boy the the fathers provide a, they provide a a model, a gender identity model for the boys. 00:07:37.775 --> 00:08:01.445 So if girls find separation and individuation a little more difficult than boys, boys find gender identity a little more difficult than girls And the presence of the father or a father substitute provides that gender identity model In a very good way in a natural way And so that's one of the things that those are three of the things that fathers provide. 00:08:01.585 --> 00:08:04.885 They provide self control and discipline. 00:08:05.345 --> 00:08:10.305 They provide, gender identity for both the boy and the girl, but particularly the boy. 00:08:10.305 --> 00:08:15.960 They provide separation and individuation for the girl, especially, and also for the boy. 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:18.980 And, all of these are very positive things. 00:08:18.980 --> 00:08:22.280 They also provide a kind of social identity to the child. 00:08:22.820 --> 00:08:25.080 Children wanna know who their father was. 00:08:25.780 --> 00:08:33.915 You know, even these, you know, even these, children, sperm donor fathers now wanna find out who their father was. 00:08:33.915 --> 00:08:36.975 So they all meet meet their sort of relatives. 00:08:37.035 --> 00:08:41.435 They get together, and they they they have half siblings when they meet. 00:08:41.435 --> 00:08:41.835 You know? 00:08:41.835 --> 00:08:48.550 And they wanna find out who their father was and who their for their other family members are. 00:08:49.250 --> 00:08:53.030 So those are things that fathers provide, and they're very important. 00:08:54.690 --> 00:08:55.730 So yeah. 00:08:55.730 --> 00:08:56.050 Yeah. 00:08:56.050 --> 00:08:58.790 So they provide self weakened when the father's absent. 00:08:59.250 --> 00:08:59.750 Mhmm. 00:08:59.865 --> 00:09:00.105 Yeah. 00:09:00.105 --> 00:09:01.545 So they provide self control. 00:09:01.545 --> 00:09:08.525 They provide, identity, gender identity, and also, just separation, separation, individuation. 00:09:08.745 --> 00:09:09.065 Yeah. 00:09:09.065 --> 00:09:09.565 Yeah. 00:09:11.225 --> 00:09:24.100 Now we, we, why do it seems like there's not much recognition or appreciation of how important the father's role is because we see the one example you gave of, of crime being a problem. 00:09:25.680 --> 00:09:32.165 And I think rightfully so, you know, a lot of mothers take on a lot of responsibilities today and they get a lot of attention to single mother. 00:09:32.165 --> 00:09:33.045 We hear a lot about that. 00:09:33.045 --> 00:09:36.425 And I think, I think that needs to be recognized and acknowledged. 00:09:37.205 --> 00:09:42.665 What makes you think, why don't we hear more about the importance of the father's role? 00:09:42.920 --> 00:10:10.075 Because maybe if more men were kind of aware of how important they are to their child's development, they might take more of an interest Any of yes, they would that one there are a variety of reasons why this has happened before the last two or three generations, the tradition and then the traditional culture, made fathers important, and it was part of the natural role of a father to be there, and they were understood as important just by tradition. 00:10:10.980 --> 00:10:19.320 Now we've lost all that in the last twenty, well, fifty, sixty years with the media and all of the other changes. 00:10:20.340 --> 00:10:24.255 So we need to reeducate young men to the importance of being a father. 00:10:24.335 --> 00:10:25.855 That's one thing. 00:10:25.855 --> 00:10:31.075 But there are also characteristics in our society that are very hostile to fathers. 00:10:32.415 --> 00:10:34.275 They don't want fathers to be important. 00:10:34.655 --> 00:10:38.195 The feminist movement doesn't want fathers to be seen as important. 00:10:39.930 --> 00:10:49.390 The, alphabet soup people, you know, the LBGT, whatever type people, they don't want fathers to be important. 00:10:50.010 --> 00:10:57.065 After all, that would imply that there are sexual differences in the roles of men and women. 00:10:57.065 --> 00:11:00.345 It would imply that people should have a father. 00:11:00.345 --> 00:11:04.285 They don't want that if they if they can have that avoided. 00:11:05.145 --> 00:11:27.725 So, Their cultures, there are people who are there's a huge divorce culture doesn't want to admit that the father who left who isn't there was is important and for a while, they they thought that the absent father was was sort of a problem for black Americans, and therefore, it was an implicit racist issue to bring bring up. 00:11:27.725 --> 00:11:29.725 But that's just not the case. 00:11:29.725 --> 00:11:46.370 This is all over the world that fathers are important, and we're now seeing in The United States the the absence of fathers in in a lot of the rural white communities, small town communities where the where the opioid crisis is bad. 00:11:47.230 --> 00:11:52.765 We're seeing plenty of, of young white, boys having the same problem. 00:11:53.145 --> 00:11:54.905 So this is not a racial issue. 00:11:54.905 --> 00:12:02.365 It's a worldwide problem, but and we have to recognize that fathers are important. 00:12:03.145 --> 00:12:08.910 And it's not just natural fathers, but we could find ways perhaps to bring in substitute fathers. 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:21.845 What, you know, a lot of dads out there it sort of is a mindset in some people, like, the dad is out to be the breadwinner, and he provides them the the the money and the house and and so forth and pays for the education. 00:12:22.385 --> 00:12:24.405 And mom's the one who nurtures the kids. 00:12:25.585 --> 00:12:39.860 Is there something in that relationship maybe we miss that, that maybe distracts us from the father's, the father needs to do more than just provide material things, and and and how how can fathers, better serve their family? 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.220 There is, and it's interesting about the literature on fathers. 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:56.255 The crucial aspect of the father that's important is his important is his warmth, his positive, love or expression of warmth to the children. 00:12:57.275 --> 00:13:01.535 It he doesn't have to be a macho man to be a model of of a good father. 00:13:02.270 --> 00:13:06.130 He does have to show his love and warmth to the children. 00:13:06.670 --> 00:13:17.205 He isn't going to be as nurturing, of course, as as mother, but he has to show that he he respects, admires, and loves his children, and that shows up in warmth. 00:13:17.925 --> 00:13:23.785 And if the warmth is there, all of these other problems go away. 00:13:25.285 --> 00:13:26.825 So it's not just providing. 00:13:27.125 --> 00:13:32.940 It's not just, you know, protecting your family. 00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:34.240 It's not just providing. 00:13:35.420 --> 00:13:47.665 It's warmth and support for your children along with, also probably, helping your children to learn how to cope with the future. 00:13:48.365 --> 00:13:48.865 Right. 00:13:49.005 --> 00:13:49.505 Interested. 00:13:50.445 --> 00:14:02.660 Is I was wondering, is there a connection between the experience of fatherhood in families and, children's ability to relate to god the father, their faith, their ability to embrace the faith? 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:04.800 Well, yes. 00:14:04.800 --> 00:14:05.540 There is. 00:14:07.280 --> 00:14:10.980 First of all, it has to do with the issue of atheism, and let me explain. 00:14:11.855 --> 00:14:13.475 There are two kinds of atheists. 00:14:14.175 --> 00:14:17.615 The most common atheist doesn't even know he's an atheist. 00:14:17.615 --> 00:14:19.055 He just doesn't believe in God. 00:14:19.055 --> 00:14:22.335 He's not very educated, and he behaves as though there isn't a God. 00:14:22.335 --> 00:14:26.035 So he's a behavioral atheist without thinking about it intellectually. 00:14:26.750 --> 00:14:46.585 And your average atheist truck driver is this, and there are plenty of them out there that your average atheist, typical, young man who's perhaps not at all interested in being an atheist intellectually, but he's a functional atheist. 00:14:47.045 --> 00:14:51.065 And they're often the result of not have growing up in a family without a father. 00:14:51.845 --> 00:15:03.250 But even the intellectual atheist, and I've done a lot of research on this, your major intellectual atheists are almost always had no father or a dysfunctional father. 00:15:03.550 --> 00:15:29.870 You know, an abusive or a weak and hard to both the Catholic world, the Protestant world, and the Jewish world is filled with atheists, in each of those traditions who had absent or bad or abusive fathers. 00:15:30.650 --> 00:15:37.765 And what it means is the father is the first representation psychologically of god the father for his own children. 00:15:38.785 --> 00:15:42.965 This is just simple psychological, understanding. 00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:57.860 He didn't follow it up, but Sigmund Freud said nothing is more common than for an adult, young for a a young teenage child to lose his faith in God when he loses respect for his father. 00:15:58.725 --> 00:15:59.865 Freud said that. 00:15:59.925 --> 00:16:03.765 He didn't bottle it up in his own life because he didn't respect his own father. 00:16:03.765 --> 00:16:10.185 But, the father is a model of god the father for his children. 00:16:10.965 --> 00:16:20.180 And, if they can't see that model, they can't get through that model because their father was away or rejecting or abusive. 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.740 How can they approach god the father? 00:16:23.040 --> 00:16:33.205 To them, the very word father means rejection, means abandonment, means hostility, or whatever those things were in their own father. 00:16:33.505 --> 00:16:36.245 You know, I've heard that there are studies regarding faith. 00:16:37.185 --> 00:16:45.380 When dads go to church regularly, there seems to be a connection that the children will practice their faith throughout their lives. 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:50.960 I don't know if you've you've heard anything about that research, but it would sort of be the, the counter to that. 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:51.120 Right? 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:58.595 On one hand, if if the dad is is is absent or abusive, it could cause him to not believe. 00:16:59.055 --> 00:17:17.130 On the other hand, if the dad, you know, doesn't need to be you know, nobody's gonna be perfect, but the dad who who is a religious leader in the family and goes to mass or goes to church on Sunday or whatever the religion might be, I would imagine, does that help the children become more faithful to their religious faith? 00:17:17.350 --> 00:17:17.670 Yes. 00:17:17.670 --> 00:17:18.310 It does. 00:17:18.310 --> 00:17:31.715 There's a a a book out that shows that not only is the mother important in in the, passing on of the religious tradition, but the father is even more important. 00:17:32.655 --> 00:17:39.860 Somehow or other, if the father makes religion significant, the children recognize that it's an important thing. 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:48.340 And if the father disses religion or ignores it or has nothing to do with it, the children pick up that attitude. 00:17:50.495 --> 00:17:57.235 Children pick up a father's attitude toward the outside world and toward concepts like that very, very easily. 00:17:58.175 --> 00:18:12.950 And, so there is evidence that says that if a father is a reliable believer and goes to church, that his children are even more, likely to follow in his footsteps than if only the mother is. 00:18:13.330 --> 00:18:32.655 We've talked about, recommendations for fathers who are in difficult situations, but how about for all the moms out there who maybe, their, their husband or their father, the father of their children isn't around, and they're struggling, they really, they see the need for male influence, with their children. 00:18:33.110 --> 00:18:33.350 Doctor. 00:18:33.350 --> 00:18:36.010 Vitz, what would you, what could you recommend to those mothers? 00:18:36.630 --> 00:18:40.010 The best thing is to, if you can, find a substitute father. 00:18:40.550 --> 00:18:41.670 And who might that be? 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:43.770 That could be, an uncle. 00:18:44.150 --> 00:18:45.450 It could be a coach. 00:18:45.670 --> 00:19:06.000 It could be, a grandfather, someone in it could be a priest, it could be a pastor, it could be any male figure in your life that would be willing to come in and help at times with the family. 00:19:06.380 --> 00:19:14.480 Not on a daily basis necessarily, but, you know, coaches are really important substitute fathers for for many young men. 00:19:15.655 --> 00:19:19.035 The same thing is true of relatives like uncles and grandfathers. 00:19:20.375 --> 00:19:41.640 A lot of older men who are really solid should recognize that they could mentor lots of younger people and that that mentoring, as a father figure would be extremely, helpful and very positive and would be a very important sacrifice of time that they made for the other. 00:19:42.100 --> 00:19:43.400 So a surrogate father. 00:19:44.095 --> 00:19:44.595 Okay. 00:19:44.975 --> 00:19:48.015 Any recommendations for those who are really interested in this topic? 00:19:48.015 --> 00:19:53.395 Anywhere they could get, research or different information, on some of the things you've mentioned? 00:19:54.175 --> 00:20:04.390 Well, I have a paper not published yet, but about 35 or 40 pages with lots of references, substantiating what I said in my earlier comments. 00:20:04.390 --> 00:20:09.430 And, they can contact DMU to get a copy of it. 00:20:09.430 --> 00:20:10.230 Well, that'll be great. 00:20:10.230 --> 00:20:14.595 We'll see if we can maybe put that on our website We'll we'll make it available. 00:20:15.055 --> 00:20:20.755 And we'll, those who are interested, please send us, you can email us, after the podcast. 00:20:21.375 --> 00:20:22.595 Well, thank you very much. 00:20:23.775 --> 00:20:24.275 Okay. 00:20:24.415 --> 00:20:29.460 Well, just, you know, one final one final question here. 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:45.735 So if there are any fathers out there who kind of regret that maybe they haven't been doing a good job or or there's some tension with their children, maybe are grown up a little bit or older and and and then there could be some friction and break. 00:20:45.735 --> 00:20:51.515 Is there anything how can reconciliation be made or are there any recommendations? 00:20:51.575 --> 00:21:04.890 I've seen some touching movies where we've probably all seen them where there's a, an issue with a dad, and in the end, there's a conversion or there's some kind of reconciliation, and you see tears from grown men, in that situation. 00:21:05.670 --> 00:21:11.875 What is there a hope for, say, if there's a dad listening today who who may have that on his heart? 00:21:13.295 --> 00:21:15.395 What would you suggest to that father? 00:21:16.975 --> 00:21:20.880 It's up to you to take the initiative as the father. 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:29.120 Not only because you're the father, but because perhaps you're responsible for some of these problems in your children's lives. 00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:38.735 And so you have to honestly recognize, that you've perhaps harmed them and and not been as good as you should have been as a father. 00:21:39.755 --> 00:21:48.420 It would help to ask for your children's forgiveness and, pray and hope that they would give it to you. 00:21:50.020 --> 00:22:09.595 And in any case, it is time it's never too late to step up to the plate and show that you're concerned with your children, to show that you care for them, to show you to show that you have truly come to love and respect them. 00:22:10.055 --> 00:22:11.595 It's never too late for that. 00:22:12.375 --> 00:22:13.735 Doctor Vitz, thank you again. 00:22:13.735 --> 00:22:19.560 So we're very thankful you were able to, to join us, and like to thank, everybody who was able to listen. 00:22:21.140 --> 00:22:27.240 You can find, you can get more information about Divine Mercy University on our website. 00:22:27.300 --> 00:22:29.560 That's divinemercy.edu. 00:22:30.020 --> 00:22:35.435 And to see our podcast, click on the podcast web web page. 00:22:35.895 --> 00:22:43.675 You can also, view the episodes on YouTube or download them from iTunes, Spotify, and Google Podcasts. 00:22:44.790 --> 00:22:49.530 So, father, if there's anything you'd like to say here, here to to finish. 00:22:49.750 --> 00:22:54.950 I'd like to thank doctor Vitz for for his time for being with us today and Tom for your your help with this. 00:22:54.950 --> 00:22:59.215 And for our listeners out there, I think we ended on on another very important, right? 00:22:59.215 --> 00:23:00.355 There's always hope. 00:23:01.055 --> 00:23:03.055 God is always there for us. 00:23:03.055 --> 00:23:10.720 He never gives up on us and he has ways of of of, you know, erasing our failures. 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:11.040 Right? 00:23:11.040 --> 00:23:13.120 His mercy and his love, and that's what we're all about. 00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:16.800 Divine Mercy University, is is spreading that. 00:23:16.800 --> 00:23:22.755 And so there's hope for all of us, and hopefully this, this podcast has been a help for that. 00:23:23.155 --> 00:23:25.315 And We want to have strong families. 00:23:25.315 --> 00:23:45.870 We want to have strong relationships and so I just pray for our listeners and especially if any of who are struggling right now with their families and be praying for them that, our Lord will step in and I just would encourage them to to invite the lord invite the lord to step into their lives and to to put put their difficulties and struggles and worries into his hands.