Welcome.
My name is Arthur Charles Zdorska.
I'm president of Divine Mercy University, and I'm joined here today with, two representatives of at a a great house that they call Life Giving Wounds.
As you know, there's a crisis in in in the family and marriage today, And Life Giving Wounds, I think, is doing something extremely important, and we're gonna learn more about that, in helping children, of divorced family older children of divorced families.
So that's Alexander Wolf from, Lake Michigan Rotis is here with us.
Welcome.
Yes.
Thank you, father.
It's good to be here.
And then we have a member, here in Indianapolis at the University of Commerce, a member from the Indianapolis chapter.
She's involved.
Her name is Amanda.
Amanda, great.
Nice to meet you.
Hi there.
Great to be here.
So I was can you tell us a little bit about what what the ministry is and how it got started so far?
Yeah.
Sure.
So Life Giving Wounds is a a nonprofit that, serves, adult children without divorced parents.
Ten years ago, there was no such ministry, like this.
It did not exist.
At the John Paul II Institute in about 2012, there was a conference that compiled a lot of research about marriage, divorce, the effect on the kids.
And so a classmate of mine and I were at this conference at that time, and, my friend Dan Meola, his name Dan Meola, decided to offer a retreat, very grassroots, very informal in DC in 2015.
He didn't take out any money to to advertise.
It was all just word-of-mouth.
And so those first couple of retreats were just very local, but, I I come from this background as well.
And I hesitated a few years before I went to on it before I was ready.
But then by 2018, I went on the retreat, and I loved it.
That was also the time when I was starting a job at the Diocese of Arlington, and I decided, let's try to form a chapter and do an annual retreat, a support group, a book club, all kinds of things.
And so that was the first diocesan chapter.
Now there's 26, including Indianapolis.
What do you know?
Sorry.
When you say, adult children of divorce, you said these are children who are adults when their parents got divorced or are they younger or pretty good age group?
Any and all.
This could be someone whose parents divorced one that when he himself was one year old, or it could be people more like myself.
My parents divorced when I was a senior in college, and so I didn't do the back and forth dance in in between mom's house, dad's house, but I was still affected in terms of my sense of identity, relating to God as our father, Mary as our mother.
A lot of these things became an issue for me.
And so it can affect anyone no matter when it happens.
Yeah.
And, Amanda, how how did you get involved?
Yeah.
I was actually right at the start of COVID.
I had my first breakup, and I said, I think my parents' situation might have had impact on my ability to be successful in a relationship, and I really wanted to explore that.
And I was starting spiritual direction, which was a great gift of my parish in that time.
And then, bam, in my inbox from my diocese, the online retreat for COVID during the COVID time hit my inbox, and I said, wow.
Grace to God.
Join that.
And it was transformative and really helpful to me to opening up that wound and the need to get support and beauty and to also bond with, other people at the church who had been that experience as well.
Yeah.
This problem is so so common.
Right?
Yeah.
And people could think the the thing that strikes my interest when you talk about adult children because they were kids, but now they're grown up.
They should be over it or whatever, you know, or, well, they were grown up as in your case.
They were in college when it happens.
So it's probably not that big of a deal.
Yeah.
But, yeah, I think because we are relational beings.
Oh, yeah.
It's it's it's a core of who we are.
I you know, it it's it's I did whatever.
Abe, it's gotta be just gut wrenching and just heartbreaking.
Yeah.
And what kind of complicates the matter is that we call it the wound of silence.
A lot of times children of diverse are spoken for by the parents or the culture.
The culture says, oh, children are resilient.
They'll be fine.
They'll bounce back.
Oh, look, he does fine at school.
He he has a job.
He's fine.
It's all fine.
And so we don't have that that place to really speak.
And so one thing that we address on the retreat is there's other children of divorce there.
We're out.
We're able to kind of gather in small groups and share our experiences and really break that silence.
Oh, that's sad.
It was a beautiful thing on the retreat recently where how it's such a peer based ministry because you walk in, you see names on the door, and you said, oh, you're here too.
I don't want you to have to be here.
But the fact that you're here and we can bond in this and share in this builds incredible community because it's it's the club you didn't know you needed, but you don't wanna be in, and you find so many peers that are kind of afraid to talk about it.
Just this morning, I met a girl that said, oh, did you know we're meeting up later?
I said, yeah.
I'm in charge of that, but I never would have known it.
It's awkward of, oh, you're in this boat too, but you don't feel free to talk about it, especially around our church communities.
Wow.
So, yeah, but I think there's a tendency.
Well, we don't wanna make the the the couple feel bad.
We don't wanna be, you know, harsh towards people who've gotten divorced.
And yet and it's but at the same time and and we don't wanna do that, but at the same time, we tend to by doing that, it seems like we tend to minimize the pain and and the wounds that the children experience.
Yeah.
That's right.
There's a lot of different kinds of wounds.
I mentioned identity is one thing.
We look like our parents together, and now they're not together.
And so that becomes really confusing to bear their image and likeness together.
Love and relationships is another huge struggle because a lot of there's a lot of confusions, a lot of wounds in in that area as well.
But then also emotions, anger, anxiety, all kinds of things.
And so you mentioned the retreats and the, I guess, support groups to get together.
What what are some of the, what are some of the key things that so if someone's listening to this, maybe feels alone at first, how could they get in touch with you for a retreat, but also just things things they can do to help with their cross.
Yeah.
So, there's a lot of we really, push the in person retreats first and foremost because there's a certain grace that you receive by going away away from it all on a retreat, that you can't exactly replicate fully online.
But to reach everyone in every corner, we make a lot of the online programs available, which are, I mean, obviously, very good because that's why we continue to do them.
But, online support groups and online book clubs.
I've done a book club the past four years.
We read Between Two Worlds by Elizabeth Markowitz.
She's a sociologist.
We read Primal Loss by Leila Miller, which she got a lot of fire for from parents who are divorced because they didn't they didn't wanna hear it.
They didn't wanna feel bad, you know.
We read Torn Asunder, which was, a lot of the essays that were given at the JP2 Institute, as well as Dan and Bethany's new book, Life Giving Wounds.
All of these have reached hundreds of adult turnover across The United States.
Yeah.
I found both the online and the in person to be helpful.
I I almost appreciate starting the online because it gave me time to weeks in between to pray and process, but then I got to reinforce it in a live retreat with community and people and prayer.
Obviously, that's more important, and the best way to have it is in person, but then you're you're supplemented as you go through your journey.
And if you something comes with prayer and said, hey.
I need to work through that.
Look for a blog post.
Look for an article.
Reach out to the community.
Say, who has struggled with that as well?
So the the both online and in person has been really fruitful.
Shane.
Some of the people who'd be listening to us are priests or spiritual directors who may not have a lot of direct experience.
What maybe you could did you get some pointers for how should a priest approach this with someone who they know is going through that or or maybe experience that you had that were I'm so glad this is a great thing to really help you or something.
Are there things that are unhelpful that a priest or a spiritual director might do or say?
Because I think it's a sometimes there's just a great desire to help someone.
But some of the great capacity to say the wrong thing at the wrong time.
So I I don't know if any any advice you give.
Yeah.
I I, witnessed something really incredible.
Just like a couple of months ago, I I met this deacon in the diocese of Arlington, and he I was talking to him about these retreats.
He himself is not a child of divorce, but his friend is going through his parents' divorce.
And so this the seminary the seminarian, the deacon, decided to get Dan and Bethany's book and read it along with his friend who's going through all of it so that he could understand from the inside, as it were, what his friend was going through.
And so that I mean, I I realized priests are busy, especially pastors and, you know, educators.
And so I know not everyone can just walk through that whole process with, here's one of our retreat alumni.
Not every priest can can take the time to to read the the full book, but that was just an incredible thing I saw.
My tips are fairly simple.
I I think any good priest would know this, but I think empathy and always remembering that not everyone has the, quote, unquote, perfect tongue.
We know no one does, and there's brokenness everywhere.
But one of the wounds and challenges you see is either you sometimes have been judged for your family situation.
I know my family was judged, and we were treated differently even though I was not that person and I wasn't making that decision, so I felt ostracized by people in my parish.
Or, also, you see that big Catholic family with 10 kids in the front row.
A lot of people didn't have that.
And remember that you bring gifts, your family brings gifts, your divorced parents bring gifts.
And so just remember that we all know that that's not picture perfect and most people don't, and any good priest knows that, but just always remembering that that you don't know someone's story, even if they are in that front view as well themselves, bring a great witness.
They might have come from a past that was unclear to you even as a priest and learn about them in their home.
Yeah.
So empathy ends up a nonjudgmental attitude.
Right?
Yeah.
Two out of three children of divorce report that when their parents were getting divorced, nobody reached out.
Not a friend.
No one from the parish.
Not the priest.
And so I think as a first response, when a family is breaking down to rush in and make sure that the the kids know there's somewhere to go, that God if no one else, God is always there for them.
Great.
I think a common misunderstanding is divorce is forever for everyone.
So even if it is resolved to a degree or at a healthy place with your family, it it never goes away.
There's always two Christmases.
There's always family challenges.
So helping, just be that the parental support, even the almost a father figure in your church, knowing that they might have to be dealing with things that you don't see, even if they are an adult and had a past, quote, unquote, past it in time.
Yeah.
So okay.
So empathy, non judgment, I'll intervene, like Yeah.
Because that it that could be a very difficult, what do we do?
You know?
And Yeah.
Just show you care.
Yeah.
Show you care and that yeah.
Yeah.
And two two other, new projects, I'll say, that are kind of coming down the pike for life giving wounds is, a marriage prep module, supplement, I would I should say, called Perfect Love Cast Out Fear.
This will be for anyone, you know, any couple where one or both come from the background of divorced parents.
And so they'll be able to go through the the regular marriage prep, but then kinda supplement it with, oh, we had these anxieties going into marriage because of our parents, but we worked through them and here's how.
But then we're also going to make a, an inroad into college campus ministry.
That'll be less in a form of retreats and more in the form of small groups so that these, young people with the help of their campus ministers will be able to to start the groundwork early before they go off and get married.
Now you're gonna think this is an unfair question.
Okay?
But you both seem to be very passionate about this industry.
What what is it you know, what is it for you that makes you so passionate?
Why do you think this is so important?
Yeah.
I I'll say, you know, when I first went on the retreat, I was still very hesitant.
I had heard about it.
I had put it off for a couple of years.
And still when I was going on it, I I thought, oh, you know, this retreat, is it just gonna be sad the whole time?
Is it gonna be lame?
Is it gonna be tough?
But I went and as soon as I came as soon as we got to Sunday, I felt this joy, this peace.
I still knew that I had work to do, work with this or that parent, and I had relationships to mend and stuff there.
But, I came off that last day with such a joy and kind of, yeah, a fire lit in my belly.
And I I remember thinking because I was starting to work at the Diocese of Arlington at the time, I thought, how can I keep this life giving bread to myself?
I've got to share it with others.
I got to tell people where to find this.
And so I was just impelled to to go and and and start and get involved.
Yeah.
Wait.
I would say I've been so grateful for the way they set it up.
I think it's very psychologically driven and very, I'm not I'm blanking the right word.
It's it's driven on real science psychology in addition to theology.
So the combination of that makes it a wonderful resource that you can't get one or the you might get one or you might get the other, but getting them together.
And so for me, I realized there were patterns in my life and things that I realized, oh, that that might have come from that.
And it gave me both the identification and also the tools to start working towards it and then coming, of course, back to the peer ministry of for example, I'm in a small small group with some lovely women, and five of seven of us have divorced parents.
And we said, oh, we all have this in common, but we don't know what to do with it.
So it's both helping you identify those challenges, but also help give you tools so you kinda open up this world of there's ways to grow and heal and really impact real change in my life, and I'm getting real tools and support to do that work.
Just a question now.
So, at Glen Mercy University, we formed performing the next generation of counselors and psychologists.
And, you know, what what would you say to them?
Maybe we're starting with whether they should continue or it's getting too hard.
A lot of it we we one of the things we have in our program that's not necessarily our program is we do have mandatory courses on marriage and family of therapy, but also, the theology of it.
We have two courses.
So one is the therapeutic part.
The other is what what's what's what's the Christian meaning of marriage?
And how do you see a need for professionals who are prepared that way?
And any any tips or encouragement you might wanna give to them?
Yeah.
I would say, you know, a lot of us who work with or for Life Giving Wounds with Life Giving Wounds, we're first and foremost peers of those who are going on the on the retreat.
Some of us have some education that are focused on theology, marriage and family, this kind of thing.
But, most people are not so clinically prepared.
And so on every retreat team, we have a counselor, and we make a lot of referrals at the end of our retreats to counselors in in the area, in Indianapolis and Arlington and DC.
Wherever there's a chapter, there's a counselor on the retreat and people who are plugged in.
And so, yeah, I mean, there's things that you can get into with the psychologist that you can't with just a peer.
But the small groups that we have on the retreat, you won't necessarily be able to find that through a clinic.
And so I think it's important to have kind of both camps working with a counselor and or spiritual director and then a kind of community ministry.
I'd say awareness is a great first step where even though this ministry exists, they can direct people to it.
If they can have the chance to read the book from Dan and Bethany, it's a great overview of of the biggest topics we cover.
And I think so when they get to a retreat, they get the tools.
And there are really tangible things in there that you can even take into counseling then and work through that with your counselor.
For example, self protective behaviors is a big one for me, and it's it's vice and virtue.
And I can say this by counselor and say, work through this with me.
Here's a template we can start guiding our conversation and use that as a tool while we work together in one on one.
Well, you know, we're we're incarnational beings.
Right?
There's the human part and the spiritual part.
And we can distinguish, but you can't separate those two parts.
And so working together is so critically important.
And it's, it's just wonderful to learn about this ministry that you are offering these kinds of retreats.
How can people get in touch with you?
Do they wanna get involved or start a chapter?
Or Yeah.
So the website, I think, is the easiest way, lifegivingwounds.org.
There's no dashes or anything there.
Just the three words, lifegivingwounds.org.
And there you can find the, retreats in person, online, the support groups, the book clubs, the social events, the chapter nearest to you, projects, the book that we've been mentioning.
It's all there's a blog that's full of experiences, stories of healing shared by people who have gone on the retreat.
There's a whole resource.
There's podcasts.
There's lists of recommended readings.
There's just a whole bunch of resources there.
And I have a challenge as listening.
If you don't if you find online there's nothing for you in your city, take advantage of the online.
Take advantage of the resources.
Maybe travel.
We had a retreat here in Indiana.
People came from four states.
It was wonderful.
And then once you can be introduced to it, take it to your diocese and your family offices and say, hey.
This is a really need a need in the church.
Can we find a way to have it in our ministry and support it and fund it and bring it into our city so it can be can grow fruit?
Okay.
Well, thank you, Amanda.
Thank you, Alexander.
And I think, you know, if you're suffering with this word, this pain, this cross, when your children a child is divorced, I think it's great news.
You're not alone.
I have many great resources for you, and it's a whole theme as well, of course, of this University of Congress where we are.
We are not alone.
The Christ is with us each and every step of the way.
So, thank you for being with us, and God bless you.
God bless your ministry.
Thank you, father.