Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast sponsored by Divine Mercy University.
My name is Thomas Kronquist.
I'm the cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of DMU.
Father Charles, how are you today?
I'm doing great, Tom.
Looking forward to our next, part here with George.
Well, as you know, we have a very interesting episode again this afternoon with, George Forsyth, who was a policeman for twenty five years, then became a therapist after earning his, counseling degree here at DMU.
And in his practice, he sees only first responders, and he's gonna tell us more about his experience as a police officer and the mental health challenges first first responders face, especially PTSD and and some of the therapies and advice and counseling he he gives them.
So, George, welcome again to the to the Call to Flourish podcast.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here again.
It sounds like so you you know, in your current work, you're seeing police and firefighters and maybe military?
I certainly would see them.
I see I see police, firefighters.
I'll tell you two groups that I don't see enough of, but I see that really need to get more attention.
Correctional officers, I mean, they are the ultimate first responders.
You can't get in there.
You know, the police they can't call the police or the fire department.
They have to let the police or fire department in after they've already gone to whatever they went to.
And they have shootings, rapes, assaults, suicides.
And the other one is, dispatchers.
Dispatchers have to hear this and go right to the next call.
They can hear officers whom they know screaming.
They hear women screaming that they're that somebody's breaking in the house.
They'll hear somebody screaming holding somebody who's dying.
I never thought of that, but that's can you imagine that?
Well, like, I'm not even one operator, but it but the actually, at the police department where you're getting Yeah.
And you're talking I didn't realize until, you know, people who seek therapy in those lines of work are some of the bravest people in the world.
So there were some dispatchers who were brave enough to say, I need to go talk to somebody, get some help.
And I hope I helped them, but I definitely got an education as to their experiences.
So, you know, you're seeing these people in therapy.
You you mentioned you also, get asked from time to time to give talks to different, I guess, groups or offices or different precincts.
I don't know what they would be called.
But so just comes to mind, you know, how many are do most departments have services for this where you would call it I don't know, like, compassion fatigue or or just self care.
And is that to what degree is that lacking?
And, you know, how could more efforts be made to to help officers not just fall into all these these these terrible You're starting to see it more.
The peer support movement is is huge.
Critical incident teams, I can't remember.
They call them different things.
Critical incident you know, so if there's a critical incident, they have peers who will come and check on you at a lot of the especially the bigger departments.
Here in Maryland, Baltimore City, for example, Vernon Herron, who used to be a Maryland state trooper, goes all over the country giving talks on resilience, Gunny and Prince George's County.
They they're working with officers and they have peer support teams in place.
I got a call today from a peer support member of a fire department where a firefighter had a traumatic incident and struggling.
Would I be willing to talk to him?
So you see a lot with the peer support, crisis response teams, that you've seen a lot with them.
One of the problems is, I've heard it before, and I'm not saying this is true.
This is a perception sometimes people have, is that if I go speak to somebody who's part of the agency, well, then the agency's gonna know what I'm talking about.
You know?
But at the end of the day, if I'm a therapist working for the, you know, ABC Police Department, well, the AC ABC Police Department signs my paycheck, and that's a lot of power to tell me what is officer Jones talking about.
We need to do this or that.
So I get quite a few who have been they'll come see me because they don't really wanna talk to the department.
Trust is huge in this population anyways.
This population if there's a population that struggles with trust, this is it.
And in your background, I would imagine that helps the trust.
Like, would they even would most of these folks even consider someone who who hasn't been in the profession?
Some would.
I mean, there's there's plenty of therapists right here in Maryland who who work with first responders, you know, the, who work with an alliance is an alliance.
If you trust somebody and they're willing to listen, you know, for example, dispatchers.
You know, I I was never a dispatcher, but, I know enough about what they do, and now I've been educated by them where I where I can help them.
But there are a lot of people who call me for the only reason is I called you because you were a police officer.
I I don't really even advertise.
It's I'm on Psychology Today like everybody is, but I don't have any advertising, like, other than a website.
I have a Facebook page.
You know, Driftwood Psychotherapy has a Driftwood Facebook page, but it's all word-of-mouth.
Word-of-mouth.
Yeah.
And different well, there's a treatment facility, for example, here in Maryland called Harbor of Grace where that's for addictions, mostly addictions, trauma also, for all first responders.
So everybody in there from all over the country is a first responder, and I have, I've got I've sent a lot of people there, and they send people to me.
So things like that, but mostly word-of-mouth.
Like, I remember there was one point there was a a firefighter and then he must have referred, like, three or four of his of the firefighters.
It was it was a joke.
I used to tell him, I said, man, you know, maybe we should have a group of you and all you and all your friends.
Just do it.
You know, we we talked a little bit at the beginning about first, we have this incredibly stressful occupation and so many different traumatic experiences they go through.
And now, you know, we've seen the last several years and, obviously, we're not saying every police officer is an angel.
Sometimes police do the wrong thing, clearly.
But there's been quite a reaction to, you know, police crimes.
Yep.
And and do you see that?
Is that making it even more stressful?
And, you know, and also, you know, with the body cameras, maybe that's a good thing.
I don't know.
But just this idea of not you're in life and death situations many times.
So you you've got sort of this growing dislike of police, but also maybe feeling like their hands are now tied behind their back.
How do you see that as as as far as morale and stress and and this whole difficulty that they have to do, you know, to do such a thing that which on the other hand, what a noble heroic way to live and to serve the common good and to serve our society.
So have you seen that escalation, I guess, of of some of these problems because of that?
Absolutely.
The the stress level is incredible.
There are you know, I hear all the time, you know, I'm not afraid of getting in trouble.
I'm afraid of getting arrested.
Not even because I did anything wrong, but because there's a riot.
Mhmm.
You know, in Baltimore City, they arrested six officers and had to drop all the charges on all of them because they never should have been arrested in the first place.
But there's a riot, you know, so they they arrested them.
The other there's a fear out there now.
A fear of and most it's a misconception.
The overwhelming majority of police officers like having body cams because it way reduces the false complaints.
It way reduces, this guy made a racial or sexual slur to me because you're mad at him and you wanna punish him.
So well, okay.
Then let's go to the camera.
Camera will say.
Now, but the camera also catches things that aren't necessarily a crime.
You know, the language can get a little rough sometimes.
It it gets a little heated.
There are humans.
You know, if they're being cussed at, they may cuss back.
And so they can get in trouble for that, you know, with the cameras and everything.
But most officers like the body cameras the body camera protects them more than hurts them.
Mhmm.
They they they actually like having them.
But with the climate, now I think it might be changing.
I think the climate is changing.
Oh, no.
There's just a rush to judgment that the police are wrong.
You can show a video clip of three seconds without showing the whole video clip.
You know, Baltimore City had a shooting not too long ago of a a a young male who got shot in the back by a police officer.
I think it was the one of the newspapers or the news, police shoot a black teen in the back.
Well, somebody showed the pic posted the picture of the kid running with clearly a handgun in his hand.
So, yeah, I may be shooting, but the article doesn't say, was my partner coming around the counter corner and was gonna be head first with this guy with a gun?
Was he running to get behind something so he has some cover to shoot back?
Article doesn't go into all that.
It just makes it as inflammatory as it can possibly be without and the police, a police officer, he's not allowed to get on the news and say, woah.
This that's wrong.
Here's what happened.
He can't say nothing.
So, sure, are there horrible things that the problem is when a police officer does something when they do something bad, it's usually really bad.
That's that's really bad.
If a police officer, if he gets drunk, you know, he's smashed, he's crashing into a McDonald's or something.
It's just, everything is big.
And so when those things happen on the news, I always say, if it happened all the time, it wouldn't make the news.
For example, Baltimore City had has about 300 homicides a year.
Name one of them.
You can't.
Name name name one of the situations.
You you really wouldn't be able to you have to really think to come up with one of the shootings.
Why?
Because it happens all the time.
It's second page news.
Man shot another man on such and such street.
But when police, you know, a police officer does it in Utah or something or, you know, Illinois, it's national news all over the place.
And the reason is because it doesn't happen all the time.
It is unusual.
People are still shocked by it.
And also there's a there's a segment of the population that does want to defund the police that that I don't I don't know why.
I think they they get to there's money, get the money from it or something.
Organizations that get money from this kind of thing.
So, yeah, the officers, that is an ex a large part of their stress right now on the police end.
That is a a large part of it.
Across the board, first responders are under a lot of stress.
But police, that's their biggest one.
Oh, that's a major one.
Right.
Wow.
I hear it all I literally hear it all the time.
If a new officer comes in here, if he doesn't tell me the stress of the current climate out there, I'd be amazed.
And just so, for those who might be considering a counseling degree or maybe even our first responders themselves and maybe looking thinking about a second career, what would your what would your advice or what would your and they're trying to discern this.
Would you have any thoughts or words for them?
Please.
I'll help you.
Please do it.
There are there are in Maryland, there are already people who are, were police officers, retired police officers, who are, therapists.
And I hear all the time from police officers or firefighters who are like, yeah, I would really like to do what you do.
And they would be excellent.
They would really be excellent.
Please do it.
You know, I'm I'm gonna be expanding, and I would love I would love to find somebody, who was a first responder at one time who could who could help.
You know, I I'm gonna I I'm just getting so many requests.
I'd like to just expand here, and, you know, I could see more.
So, yeah, I would say definitely do it.
And definitely go to Divine Mercy University, especially if, because, they really do, Divine Mercy University really does, they have, some professors there.
Doctor Keyes comes to mind who is an expert in trauma.
You know?
Yeah.
And I you've mentioned that before, and I know you've gone through his, well, there's a trauma course in the counseling program, but there's also a continuing education unit led by doctor Keyes, which, deals with all kinds of trauma and PTSD.
Yeah.
I suppose that's why you've got interested just seeing all of this, you know, that experience of PTSD.
Yeah.
The Green Cross.
His green the Green Cross classes Mhmm.
That are taught by doctor Keyes.
So first of all, he is an expert, national expert, probably international expert when it comes to trauma and treating trauma.
He's teaching you.
If we you know, you get a weekend of the Friday and a Saturday with with him.
I've learned more from that guy than, you know I I know I drove him crazy through the years, but, like, I drive everybody crazy, but I have really learned a lot from that guy.
And so the Green Cross classes, you can have there's domestic violence classes on working with domestic violence, classes on child sexual trauma.
There's classes on compassion fatigue, classes on PTSD.
It'd be great for some of these peer support organizations to send their guy their their people to that and get some extra training for what's a really reasonable price, even EMDR, eye movement desensitization desensitization reprocessing.
I use that with trauma all the time.
He teaches it there cheaper than you could find it anywhere.
K.
Your training at Divine Mercy University is not not just the best scientific theories, but we also wanna blend faith and, you know, values and virtues and so forth into therapy.
And, you know, do you use any, do you have any special patrons or or people that you'd look to to to inspire that way or to inspire your clients?
I for me personally, who inspires me is I came across a story of, father Solanus Casey.
I believe he died like he was alive when they could take black and white pictures.
I I know that.
So I think in the fifties, nineteen fifties or something he died.
And father Solanus, I liked him.
He was an Irish family, large family.
Family was so large that they'd have to split up mass.
One Sunday, the horse and carriage would take one half of the family.
The next Sunday would take the other half of the family.
And so large Irish family, parents were from Ireland, but he was born in this country.
As a matter of fact, if he's canonized, I think I heard he'd be the first American born, saint.
I believe there's a there there's a female, I think.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
The men have to catch up.
Yeah.
We have of course, we have mother Seaton.
Right?
She Yeah.
That's the that's the one I was thinking of, mother Seaton.
But so Salinas Casey had a lot of different jobs.
I read he was a correctional or jail guard, correctional officer of some form.
He was a trolley operator, security guard, all these different jobs.
And, he decided he was gonna be a his brother was a priest.
His brother became a priest, entered the seminary, became a priest.
He was gonna do the same thing.
And he went to a seminary that was German.
Classes were in German.
It was a German seminary, and he didn't speak German.
So right away, you know, he was in in a way, he was like a cop going to a college that doesn't speak counseling.
You know?
So, the, and in my early days, well, I'll tell you a real quick story with father Sharp.
I mean, professor Sharp was one of the early residencies at Divine Mercy.
We had to role play, and I was role playing with this young woman who was role she was role playing that she was a bullied high school girl, and I had to counsel her.
And they knew we weren't counselors.
They just wanted us to to work with them, to to learn some of the skills.
I was lost in, like, two minutes.
In two minutes, I had not three minutes, I had nothing.
I wanted to solve the problem.
There is no problem solving it.
So 14 year old who's getting bullied in school.
Unless I went and body guarded her, there would be no solution.
And I didn't know what to do.
And so, he asked me, he said, George, it looks like you're stuck.
And I said, yes.
I am stuck.
And he said, weren't you some kind of undercover cop?
And I said, yes.
I guess I was.
So what I want you to do is pretend you're an undercover cop working as a drug count working as a counselor.
Man, it clucked.
I just went into role playing mode and pretended I was I was doing what I thought counselors would do to make you believe I was a counselor, and it helped.
But, anyway, Salinas backed up on this case.
Salinas case, he, so he went to the German seminary.
He doesn't speak German, so his grades were poor, and he barely graduated.
Not that he was unintelligent, it's just there was a language barrier.
And so, he became a monk, and he was at a monastery.
And the rules were he could not hear confession, and he could not preach a homily.
I guess because of his his theology wasn't as up to snuff or wasn't in past the theology portions.
So they didn't want him up there, you know, preaching when he didn't even know the fact that they thought he didn't even know the theology.
So they gave him the job as porter, which the porter, he sits at the front.
And anybody coming to the monastery drop dropping off a package.
I want a prayer.
I need some help with food.
Can you pray for my sick child?
Can I get some advice?
Whatever.
First stop at the monastery is the porter.
And he became so well known for two things, his listening and his advice, that they're pictures of lines, people lining up to come into the monastery to see him, even people of other faiths.
There's there's pictures of orthodox Jewish people coming to him to get advice as a as a holy man, you know, and and, that's what he became known for.
So he's always been a encouragement to me because I'm I'm smart, but not that smart.
I'm smart.
I'm I'm smart enough.
Smart enough.
But I'm not I'm not I'm certainly not the best therapist out there.
I am definitely not the best therapist out there.
And, if you haven't noticed, I I do like to talk, and I do struggle with listening.
I would I could talk more than I listen.
So he became an inspiration to me, as somebody who is just known to be a deep listener.
So I keep his statue next to my clock, which is the client sit here.
There's a clock where I can kinda keep track of the time, and it's not a distraction for them.
I could look right by them and see the clock, and he's right there.
And there's been many times.
I've looked over.
Here's this statue.
I put it over here.
I've looked over and seen that expression looking at me like George, stop talking.
I'm getting that expression actually right now.
I'm actually getting that expression right now.
George, stop talking.
So So well, that was great.
Yeah.
So what I well, actually, an interesting person for maybe maybe a patron of counseling because it all starts with listening and, you know, even in in spiritual counseling or spiritual direction.
I know you help out, you have helped out with our spiritual direction course in teaching doing those role plays.
Yeah.
I supervise them.
Yeah.
Because it sounds like you have a real gift for role plays, given all the different roles you've had to had to play.
Yeah.
I've played a lot of different roles.
Yeah.
Wow.
Very good.
Do you feel like you are, responding to the calling you, you heard?
Are you are you aware you think the Lord has called you?
Do you feel fulfilled now in, in in your vocation as it were?
That is an excellent question.
Really excellent question.
One I think about a lot.
I hope I am.
I feel like I am.
I I feel at peace in what I'm doing.
I really feel like this is a ministry.
I I sometimes wonder, you know, I I like to I'm a visual guy, and I like to visualize, you know, gospel stories and everything else.
And I visualize myself.
Sometimes I'll visualize myself with my picture of what Jesus would look like, talking with him.
And I remember one time, I I was doing it and, the the I was like, you know, what what's next?
I was trying to get, like, what's next out of him.
And it wasn't a calling or anything.
It wasn't a spiritual experience.
And I'm not saying Jesus talked to me, but when I was thinking about this or maybe he did.
I could see him laughing.
And he said and he hit me on the back, and he said, I guess we'll see.
Like, I know, but you don't know.
So Yeah.
That's a great one.
Come follow me.
Where?
Yeah.
I don't know where Come follow me.
Trust me.
Yeah.
I don't I don't know where things will lead.
I'm trying to get out of my own way.
I surrendered my schedule to God.
I work on surrender.
So, you know, where he leads, I'm gonna I'm gonna go.
And, George, I understand you just, you're completing a book about your experiences.
Tell us just a for a moment about that, and when when would that come out?
I'm hoping it'll be out by the time this airs on amazon.com.
It's done.
It's just I'm doing the Amazon administrative stuff.
And that book is called, I am that Centaurian by me, George Forsyth.
My Journey from Cop to Counselor.
And I use that book to go into anything I thought was a big part of what led to this, this call today looking backwards.
Child things that happened in my childhood.
Experiences that I've had.
Law enforcement stories.
Under I put stories in there of undercover.
I have a story in there about when I was in jail undercover.
I have a story about my own trauma where I worked an undercover deal at gunpoint.
I've I've, and then it ends with there's a a part of the gospel where the centurion at the cross was always real powerful for me.
So I identified with that particular that centurion.
And so I kinda tie it all together at the end of the book with that.
But it's called I Am That Centurion, My Journey From Cop to Counselor.
Hopefully, it'll be out by the time this is airs.
You know, and the centurion, I love that name and that image that you're using there, you know, for your book.
Reminds me of, you know, moving to Passion of Christ at the end.
You know, the centurion, when the blood comes out of Christ, it splashes on him and he just gets down on his knees that that that contact with Christ just overwhelmed him and converts him.
And, you know, you know, it's the way I think our lord you never know when he's gonna reach out and splash us with that with that with his love, his grace, and the way, you know, his very being, his blood that helps us to to realize who he is and just can just changes our lives.
That's what happened to the centurion there at the cross.
Can you imagine you just realized that you executed the savior of the world?
Can you imagine how that would hit?
That's a great that's a great thing to think about.
Okay.
In in a certain in a certain sense, we we, we all did.
Yeah.
Your teachers as we did.
Mhmm.
Because of our our sins and our failings, we did.
So, well, George, I wanna thank you so much for joining us in this podcast, and, we're gonna have you back and talk more.
I love that.
Yeah.
And, just, you know, pray for your ministry.
It's a tremendous ministry.
And and, you know, please pray for the success, continued success of Divine Mercy University that we find out.
Do all the time.
Yeah.
More students and more, graduates who can follow in your footsteps.
Yeah.
That would be great.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you, George.
Thank you, father Charles.