So I'm father Charles Sikorsky, president of Divine Mercy University, and we're blessed to be joined here today with bishop Keith Cholinski, who is auxiliary bishop, in the archdiocese of Philadelphia and, a graduate from our master's in clinical psychology program way back in what year was it, Bishop?
2014.
And in between, he worked, at the seminary.
Well, actually became he taught at the seminary and then, became rector.
So tell us a little bit about those experience.
Like, well, first, what what got you interested in psychology and what got you interested in in studying at at IPS at the time?
Well, actually, the reason I went to, into the field was because my bishop told me to.
It was, I I always had a natural interest in it.
I was always, drawn toward the human aspect of formation even as a seminary.
And I I've always enjoyed, I've been parish ministry counseling people and, you know, trying to help them, as as I could.
But, it really was an act of the holy spirit when the bishop, the clergy office, my diocese called me and they basically said they need a priest to to go into this field.
And and so I was asked and, so that's that's how that started.
Okay.
Yeah.
And I guess you just got sent to IPL.
You really that was just the, your only choice?
Or Yeah.
Well, no.
Actually, I have to tell you.
I, I when I left the the clergy office, I came back, and I the they told me they didn't know where they were gonna send me to study.
And so I went back to my office.
I said a prayer of the holy spirit, and I Googled Catholic Graduate School of Psychology.
Mhmm.
And IPS just popped up.
And I saw it, oh, look at this.
And I saw the the faculty, and I saw father Benedict Rochelle's name.
And I said, oh, this is very intriguing.
And something kinda struck me when I saw that.
So I proposed, I looked into it.
I I called the admissions, director, and it kinda was just went from there.
And then and so sounds like you're you put the degree to good work.
I mean, you first you taught in the seminary.
Oh, I have different levels of using yeah.
No.
I mean and and I share that story because I truly I I truly believe the Lord led me to IPS.
It's it's truly and my experience there, really just it it was so refreshing to study psychology within a solid Catholic anthropology because it just gave me, every foundation that I need to to understand the field and the fullness, of the per human person as we scientifically study these different aspects of them.
And that grounding really helped me to go into seminary formation, which is what I was called to do once I got my master's degree.
Yeah.
And, was that a new thing at the seminary?
Or because I it's it's great that, we're teaching in the seminary about psychology.
And, I guess, seminary need to learn it, but they also need to work on themselves as well.
Right?
At only the cost of the formation.
Absolutely.
Especially in this time, human formation is it's the most difficult aspect of seminary formation to define, but it's it's really the most fundamental because you're the the the he the person is the it's incarnation of our faith, and it's the person is the conduit to to Christ's presence in the world.
So he has to he or she, you know, has to function, well and real are called to flourish, in their own humanity.
You know?
Yeah.
And then, so talk a little bit about so you you teach the seminar.
You taught the seminar past, like, skills for their past work, and also how to grow in their own human virtues and so forth.
Absolutely.
I I I was both I was overseeing the counseling services for the guys and was really trying to promote, you know, being attentive to one's own mental health and and not being afraid to speaking to a counselor.
You know, I was really trying to get rid of the whole taboo of of seeing someone, to get rid of that fear.
But I also was teaching a couple of courses on, how a priest can be an an agent of healing and help people in the parish in different ministry settings, Nick.
In, the record, was that another out of the blue coffin?
Yes.
God is full of surprises.
You know?
This whole journey, to to follow the lord.
You never know where he's gonna take you.
You know?
Yeah.
So I became rector, and and I really, grateful for that opportunity because it gave me a broader forum to really, help emphasize the importance of of human formation and mental health and and so forth.
So I felt like I was doing it on a on a broader level.
And I and what do you what do you see in the seminary?
Like, what are some of the biggest challenges that they face these days?
You know, the younger generation, obviously, like, social media is something they've grown up with, something that I think I'm grateful I did not grow up with, and you you might feel the same way.
Yeah.
But I I I don't what are some of the things big big biggest challenges right now that seminaries are facing?
Because, you know, the spirit can be willing, but the flesh is weak.
And, you know, seminarians and priests who were just caught out of the normal families, the normal Catholic world.
Yep.
There there's no magic wand.
Right?
So what what do you see are some of the big bigger challenges?
Yeah.
I agree with you.
The the influence of social media, I think we're still unpacking how, influential it is in a child's development and in adolescence development.
And and I usually see it in negative ways, especially if it's unmonitored.
You know, it's I think there's an increased level of anxiety, depression, particularly if, if they, tend to isolate themselves and just spend so much time on the Internet.
I could the whole COVID time really impacted, I think, their the lack of socialization and so forth.
So so I've seen increased levels of anxiety and depression.
I mean, these are these are young men, you know, who who are a one year gung ho for the Lord and faithful to what the the church is teachings, and we're seeing that really across the board in some areas, which is a very positive thing.
But it's really sad to hear, you know, with that, there's still this anxiety, depression, things like that.
Yep.
Yeah.
It's, a lot of uncertainty out there, and I think a lot of young people are, like, just grasping, looking for something solid to hold on to.
And and and thanks be to god, many do find it that rock, in the church.
You know?
Yeah.
But it's but it doesn't it doesn't, take away their human frailty and the the other struggles that they might have.
You know?
Sure.
So then one day, I guess, you you lost a bet or, got knocked on your door again and said, well, we're gonna make you a bishop.
So I kinda send congratulations and condolences at the time because I father Benedict Rochelle used to tell us you know what the definition of a bishop is, was a priest with bad luck.
So what did you do?
I mean, well, I I'm sure that was a big surprise.
It sure was.
Yeah.
I was, I was just at a meeting with one of my colleagues at the seminary.
He went down to my office, was clearing the desk for the day, and, all of a sudden, you see the phone ring.
And and they we're always warned, be careful if your phone is calling and it has a 202 number.
And lo and behold, there was a the 202, area code, and then and, all of a sudden, I was talking to the papal nuncio.
I get those all the time.
But yeah.
That was not as scary.
That was the nuncio, is it?
Yeah.
The nuncio call.
Yeah.
Yep.
Well, you were surprised.
It doesn't honestly, it doesn't surprise me because you're such a humble, holy man, And, you know, it's it's a real blessing for the church to have you in this new role.
What if you comment you know, one of the things we wanna try and do is with our, students and graduates.
How can, like, lay mental health professionals work with priests and spiritual directions and seminarians?
Because I we have a lot of people who really would like to help in some way.
And, any any any advice or tips for, how we can foster better cooperation between the clergy and the mental health community?
Yeah.
I mean, I'd like to first start by saying that your the DMU is is truly an act of God in the world.
The church needs you.
The church needs, qualified, faith filled, mental health clinicians as part of her saving mission to bring health and healing, into the world.
And I I I have just based on my experience when I was at then in IPS, and, and seeing what's happened over the last ten years, there, is so so much potential, of with collaboration with dioceses, and mental health professionals with vocations offices, and even just parish based ministries.
I I I just, I think there's so much potential, and I think there's a there's a growing, openness and interest from the part of the clergy.
It's very different than it was twenty or thirty years ago.
You know, I think there's I I'm I'm seeing even very courageous witnesses of bishops who are willing to, you know, share their own personal struggles saying, hey.
We're, you know, we're all human beings, and we all you know?
So I I think with that increased openness, among clergy, there's just gonna be an increase of demand.
So we would truly need good faith filled, clinicians.
I mean, a a really good initiative is going on.
The, United States Bishops Conference started a mental health initiative last fall, and we've actually helped a little bit with bishop Baron on a with a podcast and, speaking in one of their committees.
But, you know, you mentioned, but I think a lot of good fruits.
One, bishop Conley recently, bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska wrote a beautiful letter on mental health, going through his own personal struggle, which I think I found very interesting from the mental health perspective, but it was very it almost like spiritual reading toward the end.
I would highly recommend everyone to read that.
We have, an alumnus or actually graduate this year from the doctoral program was hired by the Diocese of South Bend.
To work in Catholic charities, and I think she's going to start a mental health, outreach to parishes there in South Bend.
So many different things.
We're working on a, diocese initiative because every diocese is a little bit different, different needs, different resources.
There's different ways you can do it.
You can have maybe work with Catholic charities or have alumni start their own private practice.
And, you know, some some places they actually have graduates or or counselors, working actually in the parish.
So there's many different ways we can do this.
But, yeah, it it certainly is.
It's a crisis.
And I was thinking with the bishops, and maybe you can choose not to answer this question as a but, I think the, you know, the Bishop Conference has this initiative.
And I think it's great that they're they're building awareness, and we're kinda, like, throwing out the, idea.
Like, hey.
We need to be doing something and trying to figure out ways to better serve that mental health needs, in the parish level and the diocesan level and throughout communities.
But we can't wait for the bishops to do it.
I think that I think that's their they're not gonna be able to execute on all this.
It just doesn't happen that way.
And, like, sometimes too many peep too many of us look to the well, what's the bishop?
But no.
It it's up to us.
And and I think here at DMU, we have so many students who have that attitude, and I just wanna encourage them, you know, don't don't wait for the pastor.
Don't wait for the bishop because they're very busy.
They got many things going on, but that doesn't mean it's not very important to them.
And I guess I think it's a beauty of this initiative they are doing.
You know?
They don't seem to be trying to do too much with this Yeah.
But kinda encouraging people to get involved.
Yep.
Yeah.
I agree with that.
And I think I think this, again, I'm new to the conference, but but I what I see in this initiative is bringing awareness among, the hierarchy and, and I I think fostering a greater openness to receiving help from laypeople to come up, step forward, propose, you know, different, different ways of being of service to the church.
In the seminarians, encourage them to come forward.
I think it's it's a general.
Right?
There's a stigma.
People are afraid to talk about it.
Yep.
Yeah.
Afraid to get help or, they often could be afraid to if there's, someone in their family who's suffering, you know, they don't wanna tell anybody.
You know?
If, someone's rushed to the hospital with a heart attack or they had cancer, horrible situation, but we ask for prayers.
Yep.
And word gets around.
But when someone's struggling with, you know, depression or, you know, my loved one tried to commit suicide, like, we don't want anybody to know about it.
Yeah.
So Yeah.
Trying to create ways pathways for people to bring forward their, Excellent.
Difficulties for a way.
Yeah.
You know?
And I think, and in a way, I think for a lot of faithful Catholics, they're they're afraid to go to mental health professional not knowing, you know, are are they gonna give me counsel that would go against my faith?
You know?
That's why what you're doing at DMU is so important because you're you're creating this whole new generation of of therapists who will actually only help people.
You know?
Okay, best.
Well, hopefully, we'll be able to continue hope we can help more up in the Philadelphia, diocese.
And, thank you so much for your time.
You've been more than generous to come with us, and I didn't spend time with us here this afternoon.
Absolutely.
Thank you, father.
Really appreciate it, father.
You too.