WEBVTT 00:00:09.920 --> 00:00:13.860 Welcome to the call to flourish podcast sponsored by Divine Mercy University. 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:15.300 My name is Thomas Kronquist. 00:00:15.765 --> 00:00:18.985 I'm your host with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of DMU. 00:00:19.525 --> 00:00:20.985 Father Charles, how are you today? 00:00:21.205 --> 00:00:22.165 Good day, Tom. 00:00:22.165 --> 00:00:22.725 All good. 00:00:22.725 --> 00:00:26.825 Looking forward to today's, show and topic and interview with doctor Ewing. 00:00:26.965 --> 00:00:28.345 It's gonna be very interesting. 00:00:29.045 --> 00:00:31.385 Our guest is, doctor Chris Ewing. 00:00:31.410 --> 00:00:35.510 He's a professor at DMU and an expert in the psychology of leadership. 00:00:36.210 --> 00:00:39.510 You'll talk with us about his work and his book, Living Your Leadership. 00:00:39.970 --> 00:00:42.870 Doctor Ewing, welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast. 00:00:42.930 --> 00:00:48.345 Please tell us about your work and how you became interested in the psychology of leadership. 00:00:48.805 --> 00:00:49.365 Thanks, Tom. 00:00:49.365 --> 00:00:50.485 Thanks for having me. 00:00:50.965 --> 00:00:54.405 It's a it's a great honor especially to talk to father Charles again. 00:00:54.405 --> 00:00:55.305 It's been a while. 00:00:57.045 --> 00:01:00.630 So, you know, my background is, initially air force. 00:01:01.270 --> 00:01:02.790 I joined in 2004. 00:01:02.790 --> 00:01:07.290 I was in ICBM operations, in lovely Minot, North Dakota. 00:01:08.070 --> 00:01:17.575 Spent, about eight years in the Air Force launching rockets and monitoring ICBMs before I transitioned over to, work in the medical field. 00:01:17.635 --> 00:01:23.575 I was in operations and call center, and I've done quite a bit of that over time. 00:01:25.075 --> 00:01:28.935 While I was in the Air Force, I did get my doctorate in educational psychology. 00:01:29.600 --> 00:01:49.715 I crossed over a little bit into the, the leadership field, which is typically reserved for our industrial organizational psychology folks, but, it really suited my interests, especially after my time in Iraq and the time that I've spent working in the civilian field watching great and poor leadership happen. 00:01:52.095 --> 00:02:01.610 I got my Lean Six Sigma black belt oil was out along with, PMP and a couple other certifications that are relevant to some of the jobs that I've had. 00:02:01.830 --> 00:02:06.330 And I've taught at a half dozen universities or more, in the last ten years. 00:02:07.270 --> 00:02:11.690 My favorite, and don't tell any of the other universities this, is DMU. 00:02:12.390 --> 00:02:24.285 DMU aligns with my my Catholic faith, and the ability to be able to teach leadership and psychology at the same time is almost unique, to DMU. 00:02:25.465 --> 00:02:29.700 So kind of that's that's, where my background is. 00:02:31.140 --> 00:02:34.500 Psychology and leadership, I I wrote a book several years ago. 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:36.180 It's in its second edition now. 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:40.520 It's been used to develop courses, both formally and informally. 00:02:41.505 --> 00:02:48.405 And, it's it's been it was a real work, you know, a labor of love to get that out there. 00:02:48.945 --> 00:02:53.765 Tell us a little bit about what you mean by so what is meant by psychology of leadership. 00:02:54.670 --> 00:02:56.130 So psychology of leadership. 00:02:56.590 --> 00:03:04.370 Leadership has a a lot of, kind of a lot of interdisciplinary folks looking at it. 00:03:05.310 --> 00:03:25.620 Leadership in particular is, I believe, rooted deeply in the experience of self, the understanding of self, and that has so much to do with awareness and authenticity, the sort of things that, Bass, Avolio, some of our other great thinkers have talked about. 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:29.940 A leader really should understand themselves first. 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:33.460 I was just explaining this to a group of of young men and women. 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:42.475 But you it's your god given traits, virtues, and strengths that inform the type of leadership that you may or may not be best at. 00:03:43.175 --> 00:04:04.020 In psychology, you want to ensure that you have alignment interiorly and in your external leadership practice, that authenticity authenticity, the emotional intelligence, and then the ability to to to shift your focus from that self growth to caring for others. 00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:11.455 As Saint Augustine said, the, the measure of love, you know, is to will consciously will the good of the other. 00:04:12.075 --> 00:04:22.050 And that is the essence of servant leadership, which is what I tend to espouse as the greatest, or the pinnacle of leadership competencies. 00:04:24.110 --> 00:04:24.350 Yeah. 00:04:24.350 --> 00:04:30.850 You mentioned, something along the lines, you could be leader leaders in different situations or different kinds of leaders. 00:04:31.565 --> 00:04:33.485 Some people say, well, leaders leaders aren't made. 00:04:33.485 --> 00:04:34.225 They're born. 00:04:34.525 --> 00:04:46.865 And I'm wondering what you think about that and what you think about, like, could could someone be a good leader in one kind of activity or or one kind of, organization and not in another? 00:04:47.620 --> 00:04:48.360 Oh, absolutely. 00:04:48.420 --> 00:04:50.740 I mean, you make a couple good points there. 00:04:50.740 --> 00:04:54.840 So I completely disagree that leaders are are born. 00:04:55.940 --> 00:05:00.040 If that were true, then every Roman emperor would have been an excellent leader. 00:05:02.185 --> 00:05:05.405 Not almost none of them had any leadership training per se. 00:05:05.625 --> 00:05:23.080 Every that's one of the reasons that royalty, even though it was successful probably the longest in civilized human history, one of the reasons that it failed so often, our training, especially if you look at military, institutions, training is what builds good leaders. 00:05:24.900 --> 00:05:35.845 Training and education, self awareness, which is one of the reasons that military leadership doesn't necessarily translate perfectly into the civilian sphere because it's a lot more directive in nature. 00:05:37.505 --> 00:05:42.965 And I believe you asked also about whether somebody can be a good leader in one situation versus another. 00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:51.180 And the answer to that is basically the same, along the same vein as military leadership. 00:05:51.880 --> 00:05:54.540 There are different skills required in different scenarios. 00:05:54.760 --> 00:06:06.915 I know some outstanding bureaucrat leaders who could manage a spreadsheet better than anyone, who could also ensure that government employees had everything that they need. 00:06:07.135 --> 00:06:26.960 But if you put that person in a situation that requires a great deal of empathy, or if you put them in a training scenario where they have to lead a training group, or a professor who has never had any leadership experience, that person might or might not be able to lead in a in a classroom. 00:06:27.795 --> 00:06:30.695 You hear a lot about, leaders and leadership today. 00:06:31.235 --> 00:06:32.855 Who's a good leader, who isn't? 00:06:33.155 --> 00:06:40.215 Are there any theories of leadership that are really antithetical to our understanding, your understanding of good leadership? 00:06:41.170 --> 00:06:41.410 No. 00:06:41.410 --> 00:06:41.910 Absolutely. 00:06:43.170 --> 00:06:55.155 I would say that any authoritarian style leadership, any bureaucratic style leadership, is antithetical to the Catholic Christian worldview and, the psychological worldview. 00:06:55.455 --> 00:07:13.850 So if we're talking about, the the value of authenticity, of, of emotional intelligence, of understanding and serving others, then that's not something you see in authoritarian leadership styles. 00:07:14.390 --> 00:07:23.365 Also, laissez faire leadership, where it's essentially management by exception or, just completely laid back and letting things happen. 00:07:23.665 --> 00:07:30.805 We can't allow that sort of lackluster or dictatorial leadership to stand. 00:07:31.585 --> 00:07:40.420 So, yes, there are certainly leadership styles that I would say more closely align with, the negative aspects of humanity. 00:07:41.200 --> 00:07:43.200 What so what are the what is a good leader? 00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:46.500 And what are the what are the essential characteristics to be a good leader? 00:07:47.775 --> 00:07:52.115 You know, a good leader, a good leader establishes trust. 00:07:52.415 --> 00:07:54.035 First of all, trust is foundational. 00:07:54.895 --> 00:08:00.675 They demonstrate that they care about their people in a tangible way. 00:08:02.150 --> 00:08:12.490 And they practice, in in my estimation, servant leadership, where there are self sacrificial behaviors, where humility and authenticity are at the forefront. 00:08:12.710 --> 00:08:15.290 They're practiced daily by that leader. 00:08:17.505 --> 00:08:34.510 In addition to exhibiting self leadership where you have excellent emotional control and, the ability to use your own strengths and weaknesses use your strengths and improve your weaknesses on a daily basis is something that we're looking for. 00:08:34.890 --> 00:08:42.510 Obviously, integrity is incredibly important, which aligns both with Judeo Christian morals and with good leadership practice. 00:08:43.565 --> 00:08:47.105 And we also like to see people inspire and empower their followers. 00:08:48.045 --> 00:08:59.010 There there's nothing wrong with transformational leadership, for example, but I believe that it lacks in that self sacrificial behavior and in the emphasis in leader humility. 00:08:59.710 --> 00:08:59.950 K. 00:08:59.950 --> 00:09:02.770 So sacrifice, humility, trust, inspiration. 00:09:03.470 --> 00:09:12.135 Could you give a few examples that may we may be familiar with, who you think is is a really good leader from business or world or, you know, history? 00:09:12.355 --> 00:09:12.595 No. 00:09:12.595 --> 00:09:13.095 Absolutely. 00:09:13.155 --> 00:09:16.755 And I I would point to the leaders that Jim Collins points out in his book. 00:09:17.155 --> 00:09:19.415 If you're talking about business, for example. 00:09:20.275 --> 00:09:25.510 But one of the one of the first ones that immediately comes to mind for me is general Colin Powell. 00:09:27.090 --> 00:09:33.750 Rarely in the last thirty years have we seen a a leader who is so universally liked and respected. 00:09:35.015 --> 00:09:43.195 He was always willing to go to the front line to ask for advice, to incorporate that that feedback into his daily practice. 00:09:45.495 --> 00:09:46.475 Mother Teresa. 00:09:46.900 --> 00:10:04.815 Obviously, Saint Mother Teresa is a is a fabulous example of someone who was, always willing to to lead from the front, to lead authentically, to tell people, sometimes in very blunt but always very true way, what she meant and what God intends. 00:10:05.755 --> 00:10:09.275 So there's there's two examples off the top of my head for sure. 00:10:09.275 --> 00:10:14.735 You've touched on humility, and I think about our Lord as being a great leader, obviously. 00:10:14.795 --> 00:10:17.700 But he said, I am meek and humble of heart. 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:19.540 And I'm wondering, does that work today? 00:10:19.540 --> 00:10:21.380 Do those, characteristics work today? 00:10:21.380 --> 00:10:24.680 Can you be meek and humble of heart and be a good leader? 00:10:26.020 --> 00:10:26.900 You must be. 00:10:27.300 --> 00:10:29.640 You must be meek and humble to be a good leader. 00:10:31.995 --> 00:10:41.695 So I believe it was Saint John Klinakis, one of the fathers of the church, who said, humility is the only virtue a devil cannot imitate. 00:10:43.755 --> 00:10:46.335 Pride made demons out of angels. 00:10:47.910 --> 00:10:49.910 And I'm missing a little bit of text. 00:10:49.910 --> 00:10:52.810 I apologize, but memory is doesn't necessarily serve. 00:10:53.110 --> 00:10:55.690 But humility could make angels out of demons. 00:10:56.550 --> 00:10:58.870 That is more true than anything else. 00:10:58.870 --> 00:11:12.005 And if we look at Philippians, one of my favorite overall verses, do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, ensure that others are more significant, more important than yourself. 00:11:13.425 --> 00:11:17.125 Christ is the perfect example, in all things. 00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:33.815 And his his example of self self sacrifice and suffering for our sins, washing of the apostles' feet even when he had to kick Peter a little bit to make sure he did it, that that sort of example is something that we as Christians can't overlook. 00:11:34.915 --> 00:11:40.355 You know, we talk about leadership here and, sometimes I get confused. 00:11:40.355 --> 00:11:45.895 You know, there's leader what what what are the, like, the behaviors of a leader as opposed to, say, a manager. 00:11:45.955 --> 00:11:46.275 Right? 00:11:46.275 --> 00:11:48.500 Some some things are more sort of practical. 00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:50.260 Other things are more inspirational. 00:11:50.800 --> 00:11:53.860 How would you distinguish between a leader and a manager? 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.500 And and to what degree does a leader need to be a manager and so forth? 00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:06.695 That's a great question and one that I get in every class that I teach, because management you can be a manager and not be a leader all the time. 00:12:06.855 --> 00:12:09.835 You know, our favorite our favorite Venn diagram. 00:12:11.575 --> 00:12:19.460 Not all managers are leaders, but all leaders should be equipped in management skills. 00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:25.700 The the real difference between a leader and a manager is that leaders define vision. 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:27.380 They inspire. 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:28.580 They guide. 00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:35.035 They they typically, hopefully, are humble and self sacrificing. 00:12:35.415 --> 00:12:37.595 They care about their people first. 00:12:38.055 --> 00:12:41.275 Whereas managers, they design. 00:12:41.495 --> 00:12:43.675 They execute processes and procedures. 00:12:44.375 --> 00:12:51.810 They, they focus on efficiency, which is, of course, fantastic and something that is necessary. 00:12:52.270 --> 00:13:09.575 They control complexity through process and procedure, whereas while managers are focused on execution in fact, Ram Charan and Larry Boss if you wrote a fantastic book called execution, and it's one of the things that Jack Welch was was known for. 00:13:10.275 --> 00:13:13.230 But would we call those folks leaders per se? 00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:14.670 I'm really not sure. 00:13:14.670 --> 00:13:19.570 I think the, we're it's not something that I'd be willing to comment on. 00:13:19.630 --> 00:13:23.170 Whereas leaders empower people, and they create change. 00:13:23.390 --> 00:13:25.090 That's that's what leaders do. 00:13:26.405 --> 00:13:30.505 Empowering people, creating change, painting a vision or leading with a vision. 00:13:30.645 --> 00:13:31.145 Absolutely. 00:13:31.205 --> 00:13:32.665 Is that what we mean by leader? 00:13:34.405 --> 00:13:40.900 Whereas manager is sort of, yeah, efficiencies and both important roles, but very different roles. 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:41.520 Yeah. 00:13:41.520 --> 00:13:42.000 They are. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:42.960 They certainly are. 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:47.540 And there there are certain positions and organizations that require both. 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.620 Some that require only one of the two. 00:13:51.385 --> 00:13:56.685 I'd like to ask, how does one improve one's leadership skills? 00:13:56.745 --> 00:14:03.885 Let's say, you know you need to be a better leader in overall or in particular areas. 00:14:04.550 --> 00:14:06.810 How do you how do you improve your leadership skills? 00:14:06.950 --> 00:14:09.450 Do do we read your book or are there other ways? 00:14:09.910 --> 00:14:11.530 What suggestions might you have? 00:14:11.990 --> 00:14:15.610 So reading is always, always a great place to start. 00:14:16.310 --> 00:14:18.650 I think that actually that's a great place to improve. 00:14:18.735 --> 00:14:22.835 I'd say a great place to start is finding out more information about yourself. 00:14:23.215 --> 00:14:29.875 Jordan Peterson is famous for saying that you don't know yourself, that you have to watch what you do in order to know who you are. 00:14:32.270 --> 00:14:42.990 I would recommend that people start with well validated, psychometric assessments or personality assessments, to see where their strengths and weaknesses may lie. 00:14:42.990 --> 00:14:44.990 There there are wonderful ones out there. 00:14:44.990 --> 00:14:46.270 DISC is one of them. 00:14:46.270 --> 00:14:47.730 I think that's very powerful. 00:14:48.065 --> 00:14:49.825 Jordan Peterson has one out there as well. 00:14:49.825 --> 00:14:51.765 It's more about your personality and proclivities. 00:14:53.665 --> 00:15:05.250 But there are a lot of tips that a couple of which I I wrote down in preparation for this particular podcast that I could recommend, and engagement and self reflection that I've already talked about is one of them. 00:15:06.190 --> 00:15:07.090 Seeking mentorship. 00:15:08.350 --> 00:15:15.650 I think that, it was Einstein who said something along the lines of the only way that people learn is by example. 00:15:16.595 --> 00:15:17.975 Mentors are invaluable. 00:15:19.315 --> 00:15:23.015 You can really practice servant leadership, focusing on others first. 00:15:23.395 --> 00:15:25.415 Being other centered is super important. 00:15:25.955 --> 00:15:39.470 And, learning from your failures, which is part of engagement and self reflection, that builds resilience, something Carol Dweck talked about a lot, in her, in her growth mindset, work. 00:15:39.690 --> 00:15:49.245 And then talking about improving communication skills, and that can be both written and oral, taking class, attending Toastmasters, that sort of thing. 00:15:51.065 --> 00:15:55.725 And, you know, self awareness you mentioned in, seems like we all have blind spots. 00:15:56.265 --> 00:16:07.430 But I'm wondering, it seems how rare is it to find a person who has a really or common has a really, really good amount of self awareness. 00:16:07.490 --> 00:16:09.110 Is this something that you see? 00:16:09.650 --> 00:16:17.885 Are there obstacles to that that that we we need to to think about, in our own lives, but also when, you know, working with others? 00:16:17.885 --> 00:16:21.245 Like, what what are sort of impediments to self awareness? 00:16:21.245 --> 00:16:35.620 And you mentioned you could do the, you know, take one of the the diagnostic tests, which is helpful, but to just comment on that, is it is it what are what are the main obstacles to it and and maybe some other ways outside of those tests that we could could work on? 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.500 Absolutely. 00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:43.985 So you can tell a self aware person pretty pretty quickly. 00:16:43.985 --> 00:16:47.285 I think most people can see through people who are inauthentic. 00:16:48.065 --> 00:16:52.485 It's pretty well known that that that facade is easily easy to penetrate. 00:16:53.825 --> 00:17:05.010 They're they're unwilling to talk about others, and focus on others, as opposed to and when you when you ask them questions about themselves, it's typically fairly surface level. 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:19.105 The arriving at a better understanding of yourself, developing self awareness is something that people who have time or make time for self reflection, that's that's a necessary step. 00:17:19.885 --> 00:17:39.725 One of the reasons that we see, for instance, priests and religious, even deacons as people who are often very self aware is because they're forced through their education, training, and schedules in a lot of ways to have developed that level of self awareness. 00:17:39.865 --> 00:17:44.525 They're in a profession, in a calling, in a vocation that values self awareness. 00:17:46.505 --> 00:17:59.340 The way to develop that outside of taking classes at DMU, for example, in counseling, in psychology, to develop better self understanding is to do things like, empathy exercises. 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:01.080 They're they're online. 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:02.600 You can look those up. 00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:04.220 Any of them really would do. 00:18:04.865 --> 00:18:05.925 Reflective journaling. 00:18:06.625 --> 00:18:12.085 A gratitude journal is a great way to get yourself started, or a journal on reflections on leadership. 00:18:13.905 --> 00:18:18.725 You know, writing things down is a great way to externalize some of those internal feelings. 00:18:21.050 --> 00:18:24.810 Engaging with a spiritual director is also a great way to to get that done. 00:18:24.810 --> 00:18:32.555 I know the spiritual direction certificate program is invaluable, but, you know, I'm not here to That's great. 00:18:32.555 --> 00:18:32.875 Yeah. 00:18:32.875 --> 00:18:33.195 Yeah. 00:18:33.195 --> 00:18:34.795 And, Ian, you we we're we're we're yes. 00:18:34.795 --> 00:18:38.655 We're very happy to help whoever, wants to come and study with their self awareness. 00:18:40.075 --> 00:18:44.955 Seems also like humility would have to be you mentioned it before, but, like, that's how it would tie in here. 00:18:44.955 --> 00:18:55.990 I think if if you're not humble, you might not wanna really reflect deeply on, you know, who you are and how you impact people and, you know, what are your weaknesses. 00:18:56.850 --> 00:19:01.670 You know, it takes humility to to even encourage, really, to do that exercise. 00:19:03.265 --> 00:19:03.765 Absolutely. 00:19:04.865 --> 00:19:13.605 You know, humility is something that it's actually, I think, fairly difficult to build because it has to be practiced on a daily, almost constant basis. 00:19:15.390 --> 00:19:19.250 If I'm not totally mistaken, it was Leary and Banker. 00:19:19.550 --> 00:19:38.055 They talked about hypoechoic nonentitlement, which is of course, the, I needed to get published fancy way of saying that, despite any success a person has, the the most important thing is that they're no more inherently valuable than anyone else. 00:19:40.050 --> 00:19:53.830 And then practicing leaders practicing humility in leadership really is not about devaluing yourself, but having, authentic confidence in yourself, in your abilities. 00:19:54.355 --> 00:19:57.415 And that is pretty rare to see. 00:19:58.035 --> 00:19:58.275 Yeah. 00:19:58.275 --> 00:20:00.995 People there there is a misguided notion of what humility is. 00:20:00.995 --> 00:20:10.810 Humility does I mean, if it's, you know so certainly, it involves recognizing our weaknesses, but it's also a humble person who can recognize his own strengths. 00:20:10.810 --> 00:20:11.130 Like, hey. 00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:12.650 I do have I can do this. 00:20:12.650 --> 00:20:13.790 I am good at this. 00:20:14.090 --> 00:20:15.130 You know, you go to the extreme. 00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:19.230 You know, Babe Ruth supposedly once said, you know, he ain't bragging if you can do it. 00:20:20.725 --> 00:20:28.345 But I think too often we think of humility as sort of beating up on ourselves and just kinda look, oh, I'm no good and I could do this wrong and that wrong. 00:20:28.885 --> 00:20:44.030 And, you know, certainly, we we shouldn't be afraid to talk about our weaknesses and failures, but at the same time, you know, in a healthy way, understand what we're good at and what what gifts we do have and what things we we could we could do. 00:20:44.030 --> 00:20:52.355 And you have and you say much more confidence and especially when you're talking about leadership to somebody who wants to follow the person who, I don't know what I'm doing. 00:20:52.355 --> 00:20:53.255 I'm no good. 00:20:54.435 --> 00:20:59.575 At DMU, some people do that a lot because of me, but anyway, it's it's interesting. 00:21:00.675 --> 00:21:04.055 You know, you mentioned some different theories out there and you like servant leadership. 00:21:05.850 --> 00:21:08.570 My guess is there's a lot of good in the different theories as well. 00:21:08.570 --> 00:21:13.690 There's probably some, you know, continuity among the different ones. 00:21:13.690 --> 00:21:16.110 What are what are some of the biggest ones that are out there? 00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:17.690 I see. 00:21:17.690 --> 00:21:20.515 So a lot of people have heard of some of them. 00:21:21.235 --> 00:21:30.535 I know the the one that I was trained on in the military was the full range leadership model, f FLRD, I think, or FRLD. 00:21:31.100 --> 00:21:34.620 So that that essentially just was a a a grab bag. 00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:40.240 They actually referred to it as a toolkit, which included several different styles of leadership in it. 00:21:41.180 --> 00:22:07.790 The most famous ones that are still in vogue are transformational leadership, servant leadership, transactional leadership, laissez faire leadership, autocratic leadership, participative leadership, which is also called democratic leadership, situational leadership, which is the full range model, and then, of course, charismatic leadership, which is probably one of the most dangerous of of the ones out there. 00:22:10.010 --> 00:22:10.810 So Yeah. 00:22:10.810 --> 00:22:11.950 What makes that dangerous? 00:22:13.345 --> 00:22:14.305 Father, come on. 00:22:14.705 --> 00:22:16.805 We can just look at our politicians. 00:22:16.945 --> 00:22:20.885 Charisma is the dark side of narcissistic tendencies. 00:22:22.225 --> 00:22:23.525 It it has that potential. 00:22:23.985 --> 00:22:30.260 Charisma is also a very beautiful thing and something that, we respect a lot of people for their charisma. 00:22:33.120 --> 00:22:33.840 Oh my goodness. 00:22:33.840 --> 00:22:35.620 I'm I'm losing the name. 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:37.760 It'll come back to me. 00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:42.825 But there there are a lot of people that were fantastically charismatic that that, that we still look up to. 00:22:42.825 --> 00:22:58.820 Nelson Mandela, Flannery O'Connor, you know, but there are also people who have vast amounts of charisma that were exceptionally dangerous and used that kind of authoritarian charismatic leadership style to throw the world into chaos. 00:23:00.080 --> 00:23:01.060 I have a question. 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:07.680 We, in our lives, we deal with all kinds of people, good leaders and bad leaders. 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:15.945 And, how do you deal with somebody who, is maybe not a very good leader? 00:23:16.185 --> 00:23:24.265 I know people who actually lose their jobs because they can't deal with a superior in a workplace because that person is not a good leader. 00:23:24.265 --> 00:23:30.720 Do you have any recommendations for people to to deal with somebody who might not be the be the best leader? 00:23:31.180 --> 00:23:32.560 It's all very situational. 00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:40.960 You know, there there are times in your life where you do have to knuckle under to take what you can, do the best with it. 00:23:42.145 --> 00:23:48.965 But there are also times where you have to take a step back and ask yourself, is this person my direct supervisor? 00:23:49.105 --> 00:23:50.645 Are they actually toxic? 00:23:50.785 --> 00:24:02.160 Am I going to value the the amount of energy that this pulls from my life more than I am my, my family and my and my mental, health. 00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:03.180 You know? 00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:07.440 Because I had left a position based on a a a manager. 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:13.785 And I can tell you right now that that is, according to most research, the main reason that people do leave jobs. 00:24:14.245 --> 00:24:18.645 It's not it's not because there aren't enough pizza parties or the pay is too low. 00:24:18.645 --> 00:24:20.585 It's because of their leadership. 00:24:22.290 --> 00:24:22.530 Yeah. 00:24:22.530 --> 00:24:24.850 I've also stuck with it through bad leaders. 00:24:24.850 --> 00:24:28.870 I tried to influence them and their decisions and the impact that they could have. 00:24:29.570 --> 00:24:32.070 Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 00:24:32.770 --> 00:24:37.890 Well, fortunately, we have a wonderful leader in father Charles at Divine Mercy University, so we don't have that problem. 00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:47.325 But I've heard oftentimes about people who, who struggle with, in their jobs and and, it's hard to give advice. 00:24:47.945 --> 00:24:51.305 As you say, I guess you have to it's on a case by case basis. 00:24:51.305 --> 00:24:54.205 What's the best thing to do in in a situation like that? 00:24:54.560 --> 00:24:55.060 Absolutely. 00:24:55.360 --> 00:24:59.700 I mean and and really, it is about prioritizing what you what you have in your life. 00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:02.660 Sometimes sometimes it just isn't worth it. 00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:04.560 Two part question here. 00:25:04.560 --> 00:25:08.740 So I think this can happen sometimes in in businesses, even in the church. 00:25:08.825 --> 00:25:15.065 We wanna give you a promotion and put you in a job in a position right now that was gonna require much more leadership from you. 00:25:15.065 --> 00:25:17.965 You know, you're you identify with the mission of the organization. 00:25:18.185 --> 00:25:19.565 You're doing great work. 00:25:19.865 --> 00:25:23.930 Let's say the person feels like, well, I that's just I've never done this before. 00:25:23.930 --> 00:25:27.790 This is this is something new for me and I'm I'm afraid I don't know what to do. 00:25:28.170 --> 00:25:33.390 I guess the two parts would be like, what should they think about to discern whether or not they would accept such a position? 00:25:33.930 --> 00:25:37.470 And then secondly, what could they do to develop their leadership skills? 00:25:37.905 --> 00:25:40.385 Discernment is a, you know, it's a it's an important process. 00:25:40.385 --> 00:25:46.405 I know I just I read a book by, Gallagher on the discernment of spirits, and it was a great read. 00:25:46.465 --> 00:25:51.745 But it's also a continuous kind of process, a conversation between you and the holy spirit. 00:25:51.745 --> 00:26:00.680 And there are a lot of different factors that come into play when you're talking about something as potentially life changing as going from an individual contributor to a leader. 00:26:01.300 --> 00:26:04.580 The leader's role is very different, than an individual contributor. 00:26:04.580 --> 00:26:11.455 You have people that look up to you as as mentor, as leader, as someone who's making decisions that affect their daily lives. 00:26:12.235 --> 00:26:18.780 One of the things that I would I would definitely consider is what what's my time commitment going to look like? 00:26:18.860 --> 00:26:24.880 Am I capable of dedicating the time that I need to get my job done as well as lead effectively? 00:26:26.780 --> 00:26:34.640 Do I have do I believe internally that I'm capable of doing, what's necessary to be a good leader? 00:26:35.575 --> 00:26:37.815 If you feel that you can grow into the role, that's one thing. 00:26:37.815 --> 00:26:46.555 But if you feel like you're going to stumble and fall on your face and you you have serious dread about it, then that's probably, something to consider. 00:26:46.890 --> 00:26:52.890 I know that we talk a lot about imposter syndrome, and that's that's also something that we should consider. 00:26:52.890 --> 00:27:11.805 But in the in the in the short term and in the long term, if you feel that you you aren't capable of or or desirous, if you if you have a decent level of self knowledge, and you think that that's not a strong suit or something that you desire to develop, then it's probably something you should avoid. 00:27:14.025 --> 00:27:24.340 But I always tell my my my people, my my my subordinates that I think that anyone can be a leader if that's something that they desire. 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:38.965 And if if they're interested in doing that, to answer the second part of your question, there are a lot of great ways to positive, easy, ways that they can they can kind of broach the topic. 00:27:38.965 --> 00:27:45.285 We've already talked about, authentic self assessment and so forth, leadership reflection journals. 00:27:45.525 --> 00:27:47.305 That's a it's a practical practice. 00:27:48.140 --> 00:27:50.240 Just the the basic writing of things. 00:27:50.300 --> 00:28:03.885 If you can just put a a pro and con list, a list together of the types of duties that you expect to be doing and compare that, hopefully, in dialogue with the person that would be hiring you, that would be a a great start. 00:28:04.585 --> 00:28:07.645 I forgot to mention that you should also assess who you're working for. 00:28:07.785 --> 00:28:10.665 If you're being promoted, are you still gonna be working for the same person? 00:28:10.665 --> 00:28:12.585 Do you will you be working with someone new? 00:28:12.585 --> 00:28:18.940 Do you know them well enough to know if you're going to mesh well with them if your leadership priorities align? 00:28:19.800 --> 00:28:27.500 I know that I have been promoted and worked in in areas where my leadership didn't align with the other person's leadership. 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:36.375 Our mission certainly did, but the way that I lead is much more participative and, and self sacrificial. 00:28:36.595 --> 00:28:48.460 And I tend to model a lot, which is it took a lot more time, and it was not as, authoritative and directive directive as that person expected. 00:28:50.840 --> 00:28:58.595 So I would also recommend, looking up so when you practice for an interview, for instance, you look up behavioral interview questions. 00:28:58.895 --> 00:29:02.835 If you're practicing to be a leader, you can look up scenario based decision making. 00:29:04.175 --> 00:29:09.950 You can, any any PHR, HR site will have very great very good questions. 00:29:09.950 --> 00:29:15.810 Say, in this scenario, this is what's happening, and then you can answer it and see what the appropriate response would be. 00:29:16.430 --> 00:29:20.685 And then, of course, public speaking, always useful for leaders. 00:29:20.765 --> 00:29:25.665 Getting in front of even two or three people and having a conversation where they ask you some difficult questions. 00:29:26.925 --> 00:29:39.050 But Going back to the, the virtue of humility, I think that must be one of the one one of the most difficult virtues to develop all virtues, you know, need effort. 00:29:39.050 --> 00:29:43.850 But, how important is prayer in developing that virtue? 00:29:43.850 --> 00:29:48.125 And and have you seen it seems to me that would be essential. 00:29:48.345 --> 00:29:57.245 How how, have you seen people who have grown in their spiritual life also grow in, virtue, the virtue of humility and their leadership skills? 00:29:58.185 --> 00:30:02.205 I don't think that you can grow in your spiritual life and not grow in virtue. 00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:05.620 I I hope that that's true. 00:30:06.560 --> 00:30:12.260 I do know that prayer is is integral to developing any of your any of the the Catholic Christian virtues. 00:30:12.560 --> 00:30:24.575 And I know that doctor Gross would be, hopefully applauding me at this point because I did read his very difficult book that he's he assigned me, about developing, virtue. 00:30:25.675 --> 00:30:29.375 Humility in it in itself is very difficult. 00:30:30.840 --> 00:30:53.435 Among the virtues, I would say that because of the amount of sustained cognitive effort it takes to not only know yourself, but know your your strengths and weaknesses, to be able to work on those and to be able to put others first in a on a daily basis, minute to minute, is very draining. 00:30:55.095 --> 00:31:00.670 And I already mentioned Flannery O'Connor as someone who was charismatic, but she also had a a really good quote. 00:31:00.990 --> 00:31:07.330 It's lengthier than this, but I remember the the the back half, and it's the first product of self knowledge is humility. 00:31:09.070 --> 00:31:18.365 And so knowing yourself, understanding your strengths and weaknesses, working on those is is absolutely crucial to the development of humility. 00:31:19.465 --> 00:31:29.210 But how can you know yourself without exploring, we'll say, the inner the, the the interior castle, if you will, going back to Saint Teresa of Avila. 00:31:31.750 --> 00:31:34.650 God is at the center of any Christian. 00:31:34.870 --> 00:31:36.390 We've invited him in. 00:31:36.390 --> 00:31:47.455 We're made in his image, understanding where he sees our greatest weaknesses and our greatest strengths, I think, is crucial as well to developing humility. 00:31:48.875 --> 00:31:55.215 So we're looking at leadership here in, you were teaching a master's of psychology program. 00:31:55.780 --> 00:32:02.740 And, so someone's out there wondering, man, you know, I I usually, these leadership or many times leadership programs are in in business schools and so forth. 00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:22.885 What what did what, from your point of view, what what does psychology or taking in in conjunction with other psychology courses to what degree is that an advantage, over, say, doing it in a in a business school, and then doing it with DMU with our with our Catholic anthropology? 00:32:22.945 --> 00:32:24.245 How does that make a difference? 00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:25.980 Great question. 00:32:26.120 --> 00:32:36.540 And I, you know, I wasn't being facetious earlier when I said that teaching in the psychology program in in leadership is my favorite course to teach. 00:32:37.205 --> 00:32:52.270 You know, not selfishly because I wrote the course, but because this course from a psychological perspective is probably the best way to learn about servant style leadership. 00:32:52.650 --> 00:33:00.510 I've taught leadership at other universities, in masters, in doctoral settings, and they're always in the school of business. 00:33:01.450 --> 00:33:10.335 One time, I taught in IO psychology, and it was a leadership course, but it was focused solely on transformational leadership, which is also useful. 00:33:11.355 --> 00:33:26.930 But the great thing about teaching from psych from a psychological perspective, especially a Catholic Christian psychological perspective, is that leadership is integrally tied to self knowledge, to emotional intelligence, and positive psychology. 00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:33.410 It's tied to coaching, helping people develop self awareness, resilience, and the ability to lead. 00:33:35.805 --> 00:33:40.945 So emotional regulation is not something that you're taught in business schools. 00:33:41.005 --> 00:33:43.025 You're not taught EQ. 00:33:43.485 --> 00:33:57.880 And I know that there's a lot of literature out there, about the effectiveness and so forth and measurement of EQ, but, essentially, emotional intelligence is even in its component structure is exceptionally valuable. 00:33:59.780 --> 00:34:22.910 Authenticity is talked about elsewhere, but understanding what psychological masks are, and how that how those look in in yourself and in others, understanding what narcissism is and how that ties to things like, self confidence and charisma. 00:34:23.370 --> 00:34:26.110 That's not something that you're going to get in a business program. 00:34:27.210 --> 00:34:41.815 And, of course, there there there's the aspect of ethical decision making that you can get in a business program, and you probably do, but not in the leadership program, and not something that's informed by Catholic Christian values. 00:34:42.540 --> 00:34:44.380 Can you tell us a little bit about your book? 00:34:44.380 --> 00:34:46.220 What prompted you to write your book? 00:34:46.220 --> 00:34:51.520 And, I'm sure there are a lot of books out there about leadership, things of that that sort. 00:34:52.060 --> 00:34:53.980 What what distinguishes your book? 00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:56.715 What brought you to to to write it? 00:34:56.715 --> 00:34:58.975 Tell us a little bit about Living Your Leadership. 00:35:00.315 --> 00:35:03.295 When I started writing that book, it was an article. 00:35:04.395 --> 00:35:07.835 I thought to myself, you know, I've read a lot of leadership books now. 00:35:07.835 --> 00:35:21.780 A lot of starting in in about the seventies, with servant leadership when Robert Greenleaf started that theory, and then moving on, and I realized there was such a thing as self leadership, which isn't really taught very, very many places. 00:35:22.865 --> 00:35:49.550 And it really struck me that the development of self, the self knowledge and the ability to move internally to externally, and kind of the social cognitive theory that Albert Bandura embraced, was one of the main problems with leadership theory in general because we we hop right into in in just about every theory, including servant leadership, you should just start leading. 00:35:49.895 --> 00:35:50.715 Well, no. 00:35:50.775 --> 00:35:51.015 No. 00:35:51.015 --> 00:35:51.675 You shouldn't. 00:35:51.895 --> 00:35:53.915 You should know yourself first. 00:35:54.055 --> 00:35:55.915 You should lead yourself first. 00:35:57.015 --> 00:36:14.330 And there are very few books out there, I think, that that delve deeply into self leadership as as a a structural piece, that underlies the transformational and servant leadership style. 00:36:15.125 --> 00:36:20.985 Kevin Cashman wrote a great book about it, Leadership from the Inside Out, but it's more of a textbook. 00:36:21.045 --> 00:36:22.745 It doesn't include a lot of anecdotes. 00:36:24.485 --> 00:36:27.205 So when I when I wrote my book, I thought to myself, you know what? 00:36:27.205 --> 00:36:33.970 This this is going to be useful for teaching, for explaining my my particular theory. 00:36:35.550 --> 00:36:50.905 And, you know, my my best friend and I, both both Catholic Christians, and we we kind of run a little company together where we we enjoy meeting with, local government and private companies, and we we talk to them about why why is our HR department so universally despised? 00:36:51.205 --> 00:36:52.185 Let me tell you. 00:36:53.445 --> 00:37:01.060 And that that that was the impetus behind writing the book, and I have not since found very many books that are much like it. 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:30.090 I I believe that one of the things that many books lack is an interdisciplinary focus, bringing in psychology, business, the study of leadership, and in, you know, in the second edition, especially, a lot of the Catholic Christian values, quotes from Augustine in the Bible, have really do open it up to a broader audience and make it more relevant, I think, in day people's daily lives. 00:37:30.870 --> 00:37:38.170 Well, this has been a very interesting podcast and a topic that I think is, is very, very important today. 00:37:38.995 --> 00:37:43.255 We're coming down the home stretch regarding time for this particular podcast. 00:37:43.395 --> 00:37:54.530 I was wondering, is there a particular website that people can go to for more information about your work, or maybe, an email you might have that people could send you questions? 00:37:56.190 --> 00:37:58.610 You know, I don't I don't maintain a website anymore. 00:37:59.390 --> 00:38:05.650 That was, it was just too much effort, but you can feel free to use my DMU email. 00:38:05.950 --> 00:38:13.695 It's cewing@divinemercy.edu, and I'm always happy to, to discuss. 00:38:13.915 --> 00:38:16.175 You can find my author profile on Amazon. 00:38:16.715 --> 00:38:19.855 There are a lot of Chris Ewings out there, but it's Chris j Ewing. 00:38:20.850 --> 00:38:26.790 And I'm also available on social media, LinkedIn, especially for things that are professional related. 00:38:27.330 --> 00:38:31.270 Well, doctor Ewing, I'd like to thank you so much for this, very interesting podcast. 00:38:31.330 --> 00:38:35.110 I don't know if, father, you have any final questions or comments you'd like to make. 00:38:35.225 --> 00:38:38.825 I think it was really interesting conversation, doctor Ewing, and learned a lot. 00:38:38.825 --> 00:38:41.465 And, you know, putting in self knowledge is so important. 00:38:41.465 --> 00:38:42.925 I think that's one of the big takeaways. 00:38:44.745 --> 00:38:49.720 And then just a need for virtues, humility, and and the ability to inspire. 00:38:50.100 --> 00:38:51.080 So thank you. 00:38:51.620 --> 00:38:52.260 Thank you. 00:38:52.260 --> 00:38:59.720 And, you know, sucking up to the boss, I have really appreciated your version your style of leadership over the years. 00:39:00.740 --> 00:39:06.095 My main interactions are with doctor Clousey, and Julia is a fantastic leader as well. 00:39:06.095 --> 00:39:10.595 So I see what you're what you're doing at TMU, and it's always a pleasure. 00:39:10.975 --> 00:39:11.615 Thank you. 00:39:11.615 --> 00:39:13.135 I appreciate that coming from you. 00:39:13.135 --> 00:39:14.255 That that means a lot. 00:39:14.255 --> 00:39:14.995 Thank you. 00:39:15.410 --> 00:39:17.350 Thank you for being with us, doctor Ewing.