WEBVTT 00:00:07.680 --> 00:00:09.860 Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast. 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:16.185 I'm Thomas Kronquist, your cohost, again with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University. 00:00:16.185 --> 00:00:17.385 Father, how are you today? 00:00:17.385 --> 00:00:18.505 I'm doing fine, Tom. 00:00:18.505 --> 00:00:19.465 Thank you very much. 00:00:19.465 --> 00:00:21.485 I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. 00:00:21.625 --> 00:00:35.130 We're gonna talk a little bit about psychology and faith and religion and why why those two, can really fit together well and why it's so important, I think, for, for our world today. 00:00:35.130 --> 00:00:38.410 So Doctor Vitz is our guest speaker again. 00:00:38.410 --> 00:00:46.885 And, if, if people have listened to his first, two podcasts, they were very, very interesting, the topic of fatherhood and forgiveness. 00:00:46.945 --> 00:00:56.550 And and now we're gonna hear a little bit about his personal journey and how he came to appreciate the the relationship between psychology and faith. 00:00:57.890 --> 00:01:07.410 If anybody missed it, doctor Vitz is a senior scholar of psychology here at the Institute for Psychological Sciences, which is our school of psychology at Divine Mercy University. 00:01:07.410 --> 00:01:11.185 He's also professor emeritus at New York University. 00:01:12.845 --> 00:01:16.145 He has written many books and articles. 00:01:17.165 --> 00:01:35.110 Most notably, he's the co author of the recently published textbook, A Catholic Christian Meta Model of the Person, which has already won a prestigious expanded reason award given by the Vatican Foundation, Joseph Ratzinger, Benedict the sixteenth, and University of Francisco de Vittoria in Spain. 00:01:35.565 --> 00:01:37.345 Doctor Vitts, how are you today? 00:01:37.725 --> 00:01:38.445 I'm fine. 00:01:38.445 --> 00:01:39.185 Thank you. 00:01:39.565 --> 00:01:44.685 I'm enjoying the fall weather and, You're up in New York there today, aren't you? 00:01:44.685 --> 00:01:44.925 Yes. 00:01:44.925 --> 00:01:50.370 I'm in actually, the color is at just about at peak, and it's really gorgeous. 00:01:50.750 --> 00:01:53.410 I will catch up with you here in Virginia in a few weeks. 00:01:53.870 --> 00:01:54.350 Right. 00:01:54.350 --> 00:01:54.670 Yeah. 00:01:54.670 --> 00:01:55.390 So that's great. 00:01:55.390 --> 00:02:01.890 Well, question, you know, doctor Vitz, I think your first book was called psychology as religion. 00:02:02.525 --> 00:02:09.725 And, you know, there seems to be traditionally, there seem to be in some people's minds like a separation of the two. 00:02:09.725 --> 00:02:14.065 And you talked about that in the book that that on one hand, we have the science of psychology. 00:02:14.125 --> 00:02:17.265 Other hand, religion is as if they're not compatible. 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:27.420 And so I guess my my first question would just if you tell us a little bit about what what motivated you to write that book and what got you interested in the, in the topic? 00:02:27.880 --> 00:02:28.360 Alright. 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:35.185 Well, it's complicated, and I'll try to just hit certain simple highlights that I hope will be informative. 00:02:36.445 --> 00:02:41.825 I had converted from atheism, in the early seventies. 00:02:43.005 --> 00:02:46.785 I was an experimental psychologist with an atheist background. 00:02:47.565 --> 00:02:53.100 And in converting, which I won't go into, but I did convert. 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:59.900 And first, it was sort of a, an Anglo Catholic Episcopalian and then became a Catholic. 00:03:01.415 --> 00:03:10.235 But in that conversion, one of the things I discovered was that I had been I thought I was well educated. 00:03:10.295 --> 00:03:14.410 I had a PhD, etcetera, etcetera. 00:03:15.750 --> 00:03:20.970 But I had never been, in fact, exposed to the intellectual tradition of Christianity. 00:03:21.910 --> 00:03:32.155 I'd never even heard of CS Lewis or GK Chesterton, much less many of the other people that had been part of the tradition of the intellectual tradition of the church. 00:03:33.495 --> 00:03:41.450 And when I when I discovered it, I felt all of a sudden, I felt like a kid in a candy store. 00:03:41.510 --> 00:03:44.650 I felt like nobody had you know, I felt, hey. 00:03:44.710 --> 00:03:52.810 This is the richest intellectual material I've ever seen in my life, and it's relevant to and it's been ignored by the secular world. 00:03:53.285 --> 00:03:54.025 My gosh. 00:03:54.165 --> 00:03:55.445 Look what's here. 00:03:55.445 --> 00:03:56.905 It's it's terrific. 00:03:57.925 --> 00:04:11.330 And, and then I was sort of afraid that maybe all that I was gonna do as I became a Christian was become another one of you know, be equally intellectual and all of that and sort of like I was in my secular world. 00:04:11.710 --> 00:04:14.050 So I knew that would be something to worry about. 00:04:15.550 --> 00:04:38.330 But at first I noticed the contrast between psychology and religion And in my book Psychology as Religion, the Cult of Self Worship, I criticized the the humanistic and above all, Rogerian and Maslovian psychology of the time who criticized it very, strongly from a Christian perspective. 00:04:38.870 --> 00:04:42.330 In other words, secular psychology was about the self. 00:04:42.790 --> 00:04:44.470 It was about aggrandizing the self. 00:04:44.470 --> 00:04:46.890 It's about self realization, self actualization. 00:04:47.625 --> 00:04:53.805 It's all about you, number one, not about other people and, of course, not about God. 00:04:54.745 --> 00:04:59.485 And so I criticized it, and it actually, began my intellectual trajectory. 00:05:01.900 --> 00:05:12.240 But then as time went on and I discovered the riches the riches of the church tradition, I saw that the church, that Christianity had a lot to bring to the understanding of the person. 00:05:13.420 --> 00:05:28.785 That psychology was not just the only discipline that could tell you about people, that the church had an understanding of the person that was very rich, that was and very, potentially applicable. 00:05:30.260 --> 00:05:32.280 Now at this time, I was at NYU. 00:05:32.660 --> 00:05:34.520 I was in a very secular environment. 00:05:35.140 --> 00:05:37.140 I couldn't work on this very much. 00:05:37.140 --> 00:05:38.420 I could read about it. 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:43.885 I wrote a few articles and essays and so on, but I couldn't really mine it. 00:05:43.885 --> 00:05:52.945 I couldn't really deal with it in a systematic way because I had obligations to, New York University, to its department. 00:05:53.940 --> 00:05:58.120 I had an absence of students who were interested in it, you might say as well. 00:05:58.660 --> 00:06:15.135 And and so I I it just grew as a desire to find some way in order to express what I thought was there embedded in the Christian tradition of the person and find a way to apply it to psychology. 00:06:17.275 --> 00:06:25.740 Well, then some years later, and this is, you know, now we're hitting about 1995 or 1998. 00:06:25.880 --> 00:06:41.035 I I went oh, 1990, I was down at the John Paul the second Institute for Marriage and Family where I gave a course, and I began to sense some more of the richness of the the relevance of church writers for understanding the person. 00:06:41.335 --> 00:06:50.730 And then around the in 1999, we set up, Gladys Sweeney and, Bill Nordling and I set up. 00:06:50.970 --> 00:06:55.230 We're the first three involved in the setting up of, IPS. 00:06:55.930 --> 00:06:58.170 The first three psychologists, that is. 00:06:58.170 --> 00:07:03.310 We had help from, priests and others too, of course, and donors and benefactors. 00:07:03.690 --> 00:07:20.940 But and that here, finally, I could really study how to integrate, and bring this rich tradition of of the intellectual life of the church to to rounding out and fulfilling the understanding of the person. 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:26.620 And that's what we've been doing here at DMU actively for the last twenty years. 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:38.835 So doctor Vitz, you know, you were trained at Stanford University and then for many, many years taught at New York University, NYU, two of the most elite schools in the country. 00:07:38.835 --> 00:07:48.480 So your your credentials, regarding psychology and the modern version of it are very, are impeccable, really, when you look at it that way. 00:07:50.460 --> 00:07:52.140 What were you talked about in your book. 00:07:52.140 --> 00:07:56.880 You you criticized, the shortcomings of this humanistic approach. 00:07:57.515 --> 00:07:58.475 What were the strengths there? 00:07:58.475 --> 00:08:04.175 Were there what were the good things that you did find, in in that were out there in modern psychology? 00:08:05.035 --> 00:08:24.400 Well, even the humanistic psychologists, which I I saw focused on the isolated individual and being very narcissistic, Nevertheless, they had brought psychology out of the extremely narrow, behaviorist position and out of the relatively narrow psychoanalytic position as well. 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:28.715 So they had brought it into a more reasonable understanding of the person. 00:08:29.095 --> 00:08:36.315 But the person now was still only the isolated individual, and that's what I criticized this narcissistic aspect. 00:08:37.735 --> 00:08:52.995 But much to my surprise, and not because of my criticism, but psychologists themselves began to, discover very important aspects of the person that had been neglected that I had pointed out, but they discovered them on their own. 00:08:53.475 --> 00:08:57.655 And interpersonal relations began to be seen as very important. 00:08:58.355 --> 00:09:01.415 Love between people, bonding, attachment. 00:09:02.035 --> 00:09:12.240 And so with people like Bowlby and the attachment theory, all of a sudden, we saw that people are really created out of their relationships with other people. 00:09:12.780 --> 00:09:15.580 They're not sort of self generated from inside. 00:09:15.580 --> 00:09:18.080 They're created in our relationships. 00:09:18.780 --> 00:09:21.520 That's how we come into existence as a person. 00:09:22.475 --> 00:09:28.015 We are there as two people before I am even there as an isolated individual. 00:09:29.995 --> 00:09:39.150 And so psychology began to see that, and that was a very important contribution that psychology developed, the interpersonal aspect. 00:09:39.450 --> 00:09:45.950 And a number of prominent psychologists are well known for introducing interpersonal aspects into psychotherapy. 00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:54.935 And in addition, they brought in a much bigger emphasis on emotion than had been present previously. 00:09:56.675 --> 00:10:00.295 Motion focused therapy has come along, and that's a major contribution. 00:10:01.555 --> 00:10:06.260 In addition, they the psychologists brought in the cognitive and behavioral approach. 00:10:06.880 --> 00:10:16.260 All of a sudden, how we thought our thinking was seen as an important contributor to our pathology, and changing how to think in a better way was part of recovery. 00:10:17.375 --> 00:10:24.195 That came out of psychology on its own, but not it wasn't there in any strong sense when I wrote my critique. 00:10:24.735 --> 00:10:30.755 So those were all positive developments that occurred in psychology in the last, say, fifty years. 00:10:32.180 --> 00:10:38.200 And then finally, two other big things have happened to psychology that have helped it. 00:10:38.900 --> 00:10:45.515 One, around, the year 2000 or a little earlier, forgiveness was brought into psychology. 00:10:45.655 --> 00:10:58.315 It was officially acknowledged by the American Psychological Association that forgiveness was a helpful relationship between people, that forgiveness could be an intervention in psychotherapy, and would help people. 00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:09.710 And, well, you know, we've we've all known that forgiveness is one of the ways in which relationships between people are healed, but finally psychology has acknowledged it too. 00:11:09.850 --> 00:11:10.990 And that's very important. 00:11:12.525 --> 00:11:23.185 And then the last positive thing that psychology has brought in is that psychology has not discovered but rediscovered. 00:11:23.565 --> 00:11:26.065 Or anyway psychology has discovered the virtues. 00:11:27.085 --> 00:11:38.200 And my Dominican friends, when I would say psychology has discovered the virtues, they would all laugh and say well you know since Aristotle two thousand five hundred years ago it took you a long time. 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:41.560 And I say yeah that's true. 00:11:41.835 --> 00:11:46.895 The virtues were discovered a long time ago by Aristotle and then by Aquinas and many others. 00:11:47.675 --> 00:11:48.735 But you know what? 00:11:49.115 --> 00:11:50.675 You don't know how to apply them. 00:11:50.675 --> 00:11:57.720 We don't psychologists are going to learn about how you can learn them or if you can learn them or when you can learn them or how and whatever. 00:11:58.260 --> 00:12:01.000 And psychology is gonna make a big contri contribution. 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:05.240 So they got a little quieter then in their criticism. 00:12:06.980 --> 00:12:07.220 Okay. 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:15.345 Well But that was developed by a a secular Jewish psychologist, primarily by Martin Seligman and many others now have made major contributions. 00:12:16.125 --> 00:12:25.185 And so psychology has discovered the virtues, and the virtues are now seen as as guideposts to human flourishing. 00:12:27.210 --> 00:12:36.270 Psychology has turned from looking at just our problems and our pathologies to how do we flourish, how do we go forward now in a positive way. 00:12:36.330 --> 00:12:38.090 And that's what the virtues have brought in. 00:12:38.090 --> 00:12:46.095 They've brought in the purpose of life when previously, it was only the determinants of our of our pathologies. 00:12:46.955 --> 00:12:47.275 Okay. 00:12:47.275 --> 00:12:50.255 Well, I'm not a Dominican, but I'm gonna start talking again here. 00:12:51.640 --> 00:12:52.780 You know, it's interesting. 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:54.920 There's different ways we could get to the truth. 00:12:54.920 --> 00:12:55.320 Right? 00:12:55.320 --> 00:13:12.965 Sometimes we got we have God's revelation, which kinda tells us what the truth is, but seems like maybe this the the profession of the discipline of psychology is doing sort of a trial and error, and you're starting to discover more and more, maybe getting to the same truth that we know through the faith and through what's been passed down to us. 00:13:13.185 --> 00:13:36.615 And one of the things that you brought up, they're talking about the importance of relationships and going from this individualistic Paradigm to a more understanding better now the centrality of relationships and one of the things we have in our book the catholic christian meta model of the person one of the critical things we talk about it. 00:13:36.615 --> 00:14:03.990 There's a human beings are relational and Kind of we know that through our families and all of our relationships But probably the perfect relationship is is God the holy trinity God himself is a really it's father son and holy spirit all in one And and I think that the ultimate foundation of that so, so with with the book we have, the Catholic Christian made a model of the person and you and the faculty worked so hard on over the years. 00:14:04.925 --> 00:14:07.805 Could that be something that could actually help be a guide? 00:14:07.805 --> 00:14:25.470 How for a lot of the these good these positive advances, in psychology, how do you see that as maybe even improving these, these good things that are out there in this in in the secular world, and and how do you see that relationship working? 00:14:25.470 --> 00:14:31.425 And why and why would it be important to to know about the CCMMP, which we call it? 00:14:31.825 --> 00:14:32.065 Okay. 00:14:32.065 --> 00:14:37.605 Well, that's a big, a big question to answer, but I I'll I'll I'll try. 00:14:38.305 --> 00:14:49.190 First of all, for for Christians, it means that because we're made in the image of God and God is an interpersonal triune God, We are made for interpersonal relationships. 00:14:50.370 --> 00:14:59.590 Now even if you're not a Christian, the old testament is very clear that we're made the purpose of life is to love God and love others. 00:15:00.275 --> 00:15:04.215 And so what the model points out is the importance of love. 00:15:04.995 --> 00:15:12.215 And if if even for those who are in other real I mean, Jews can see that perfectly, you know. 00:15:13.370 --> 00:15:15.950 After all, that was you know? 00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:21.150 They got it first and and and and and and very clearly. 00:15:21.770 --> 00:15:27.685 And, so loving God and loving others is now seen as the ultimate goal in life life. 00:15:27.685 --> 00:15:39.145 And not and not just self fulfillment, not just that, but we've learned now that the virtues are there, and the virtues are things that have a lot to do with other people. 00:15:39.605 --> 00:15:42.985 The virtue of justice is how we treat other people. 00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:49.160 The virtue of courage is how we deal with the social environment as well as the physical environment. 00:15:49.300 --> 00:15:57.560 The virtue of wisdom, the virtue of of self control, all of these have to do with our relationships with others. 00:15:58.015 --> 00:16:10.915 And as we start moving there into the these purposes for life and psychology is now helping, and I I hope even the world of education will catch up with that pretty quickly on the virtual business. 00:16:11.380 --> 00:16:26.440 In any case, that's moving us towards something that is basically interpersonal and aimed at positive relationships that relate positive relationships with people in our society is now seen as one of the goals of flourishing. 00:16:27.835 --> 00:16:32.415 And of course, we would like to see it finally end in the love of God and love of neighbor. 00:16:33.115 --> 00:16:42.175 And, but those who, you know, that's that's maybe restricted to certain kind to religious people or who knows. 00:16:42.580 --> 00:16:52.840 But even the nonreligious, I think, will see in loving others, they flourish and reach peace and happiness and joyfulness. 00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:54.760 Quick question. 00:16:55.140 --> 00:16:56.520 You're talking about the virtues. 00:16:57.165 --> 00:16:58.685 What about the theological virtues? 00:16:58.685 --> 00:17:01.505 Seems like you're talking about the human virtues, primarily. 00:17:01.805 --> 00:17:05.645 The theological virtues, you certainly talked about charity, but what about faith and hope? 00:17:05.645 --> 00:17:08.225 How does psychology understand faith and hope? 00:17:08.365 --> 00:17:14.060 Well, I think they call hope optimism, and they see it that way. 00:17:14.280 --> 00:17:22.060 And faith, I think they might call it, certain kinds of trust, in another person and so on. 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:26.220 They don't really talk about faith in the usual sense. 00:17:27.135 --> 00:17:32.975 That's more that's truly theological, I think, at its core. 00:17:32.975 --> 00:17:38.975 But, maybe I've missed something there, so I'm I if I'm to be corrected, so be it. 00:17:38.975 --> 00:17:39.695 Maybe in time. 00:17:39.695 --> 00:17:41.075 Maybe in time, though, Rick. 00:17:41.135 --> 00:17:41.940 Maybe in time. 00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:54.680 But, I think they even are beginning to see hope as being hope is related to having a a positive notion toward your life as flourishing. 00:17:56.675 --> 00:18:00.855 I think, for example, it's not just optimism, but hope. 00:18:00.995 --> 00:18:10.055 Every person who goes into psychotherapy has some hope, not just optimism, some hope that this is gonna help them to a better life. 00:18:11.810 --> 00:18:15.110 And therefore, hope is kind of a foundation in therapy. 00:18:15.170 --> 00:18:25.190 If you don't have it, why in the world would you go into therapy and spend time and money and be more hopeful about what it was gonna be for your future life? 00:18:25.655 --> 00:18:32.715 Also, you know, there's this this search for transcendence or meaning, something outside of yourself. 00:18:33.735 --> 00:18:37.835 And so maybe that in a way could be relate related to something we call vocation. 00:18:37.895 --> 00:18:38.055 Right? 00:18:38.055 --> 00:18:42.410 The idea that we've been put here for a purpose, that god has made us for a reason. 00:18:42.410 --> 00:18:45.550 He has a or we have a we have a role to play in this world. 00:18:47.690 --> 00:18:53.850 You know, is it the the psychology try to to go there, more of these days or or not? 00:18:53.850 --> 00:18:56.065 For for They do in some ways. 00:18:56.065 --> 00:19:00.065 They do accept something called spirituality Okay. 00:19:00.305 --> 00:19:03.505 Which is a rather undefined term in many ways. 00:19:03.505 --> 00:19:04.805 It's a little bit vague. 00:19:04.865 --> 00:19:11.500 But it allows the notion that there is a certain purpose in life that's higher and transcendent. 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:12.460 Mhmm. 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:25.275 And, I think psychology has by choosing to accept the virtues, has moved toward has made a major change, as I've said, from determinism to telos. 00:19:26.215 --> 00:19:32.235 And once you start that movement, it's move it's headed toward an understanding of the transcendent. 00:19:32.935 --> 00:19:39.540 And at some point, the transcendent then becomes seen as the ultimate end of flourishing. 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:52.335 You know, and it reminds me as you say that of Saint Paul's address to the Greeks, the Decapolis, when he's talking about this this un unseen God, and he's trying to reveal it to them. 00:19:52.335 --> 00:19:52.735 Yeah. 00:19:52.735 --> 00:20:05.670 I think it's a it's an interesting narrative to kinda to look at the secular world in general, but also this this this development in psychology as little by little, the stuff that's inside of us and really comes from our nature. 00:20:05.670 --> 00:20:07.270 We can't we can't run from it. 00:20:07.270 --> 00:20:15.370 And and so these these bigger questions, I don't think peep you can't avoid it one way or the other whether you're overtly a religious person or not. 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:32.855 And I think that's one of the the things that we try to do here in our programs, and I think it's one of the things that the the CCMMP is trying to address is that, yeah, there is there is there's a common human nature that that has these these characteristics that, that are just just part of human nature. 00:20:33.100 --> 00:20:37.680 It's part of human nature, but right now, a lot of it has been what they call imminentized. 00:20:38.060 --> 00:20:39.600 It's been put into this world. 00:20:39.980 --> 00:20:44.140 There's some people who believe that politics is the whole meaning of life. 00:20:44.140 --> 00:20:47.200 Other people believe self individualization is. 00:20:47.605 --> 00:20:50.985 And there are some people I know, fair number of them, with money. 00:20:51.205 --> 00:20:52.425 Everything's about money. 00:20:52.565 --> 00:20:53.065 Right. 00:20:53.205 --> 00:20:57.065 The culture, I hope, will discover their their inadequacies. 00:20:57.765 --> 00:21:01.865 Not that they don't have positive aspects, but, you know, they're not the ultimate. 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:10.700 A psychologist once told me that the the purpose the task of psychology is to bring people to the doorstep of faith. 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:15.480 Would you, would you see any, truth in that, merit in that? 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:17.000 I do see there's merit in that. 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:22.825 I would say, the patron saint of psychology should be, Saint John the Baptist. 00:21:23.445 --> 00:21:23.945 Mhmm. 00:21:24.325 --> 00:21:27.945 And therefore, that would be the bringing there to the to the edge. 00:21:28.325 --> 00:21:34.820 And at the same time, psychology must decrease and spirituality must and God must increase. 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:36.420 Wow. 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.020 Sounds like a book title. 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:39.700 Who knows? 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.260 I doubt it, but somebody might use it. 00:21:42.320 --> 00:21:43.520 That's a great way to end it. 00:21:43.520 --> 00:21:45.520 I was gonna ask if but that that's great. 00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:45.920 Yeah. 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:55.295 So we have we have the Herald out in the wilderness, right, calling for us to the the voice out there, the precursor, I guess, to Christ in John the Baptist. 00:21:55.435 --> 00:22:02.095 And Psychology can end up becoming, the the Herald, the precursor. 00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:09.040 One of the things in the Catholic teaching that's very consistent with that is your grace builds on nature. 00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:24.765 And, that's, in other words, god says chosen through the incarnation, and there's something about our nature that is good and that's here, and it we we need to have a solid, nature so that God can do fully, completely, or or more completely his work within us. 00:22:24.765 --> 00:22:25.985 And so Yeah. 00:22:26.685 --> 00:22:28.545 Psychology helps us to heal. 00:22:29.020 --> 00:22:35.660 It helps us to better understand, you know, to develop virtues and things which give God a better opportunity to work within us. 00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:39.420 And I think that's very exciting for, for that. 00:22:39.420 --> 00:22:45.615 And also can you might also say it can help us take away barriers that prevent us from loving as we should. 00:22:45.915 --> 00:22:52.015 Doctor Vitts, thank you again for, being our guest on the Cult Flourish podcast. 00:22:52.555 --> 00:23:02.070 If anybody wants more information about Divine Mercy University and this podcast, they can go to our website, divinemercy.edu, and click on the podcast web page. 00:23:02.070 --> 00:23:05.370 And you could also look at episodes on YouTube. 00:23:06.150 --> 00:23:10.275 You can download them from iTunes, Spotify, and Google Podcasts. 00:23:10.575 --> 00:23:12.995 So, father, any last words before we end? 00:23:13.535 --> 00:23:15.055 Well, I'll just thank you, doctor Bitts. 00:23:15.055 --> 00:23:22.255 It was a very fascinating discussion, and we're really, grateful for your time and, really for your witness out there. 00:23:23.090 --> 00:23:27.750 Joining with John the Baptist to kinda be a precursor for the field. 00:23:27.810 --> 00:23:31.490 Are you wearing a hair shirt and eating, locusts, Paul? 00:23:31.490 --> 00:23:31.730 No. 00:23:31.730 --> 00:23:34.470 I am I I am not worthy of them at all. 00:23:35.535 --> 00:23:37.235 I am not worthy of him. 00:23:37.375 --> 00:23:39.315 I'm wearing a tie and a jacket. 00:23:39.695 --> 00:23:45.235 I wish you the best, and, enjoy your time up in New York, and we look forward to seeing you back here soon. 00:23:45.695 --> 00:23:46.175 Very good. 00:23:46.175 --> 00:23:47.235 I'll be back shortly. 00:23:48.430 --> 00:23:49.090 God bless. 00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:49.890 God bless.