Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast.
My name is Thomas Kronquist.
I'm your cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father, how are you doing today?
I'm doing just great, Tom.
How about you?
Very good.
We are going to, speak with Ian Masson, who is the director of our, IPS center, the clinic here on campus.
And, this will be the second part of a discussion that, we began, regarding anxiety, in children, a very interesting topic.
And, so we're gonna continue, speaking with, Ian.
Ian, welcome again to the Call to Flourish podcast.
How are you today?
Doing well, Tom.
Yeah.
Thank you so much, and it's great being back.
Ian, so, what would be symptoms or or signs that maybe you need to seek professional help with with with a, you know, a younger child, especially, where it might be we might not perceive it.
Right?
And I think I would imagine we'd wanna, you know, get them help as soon as we can.
Absolutely.
Could you maybe walk us through different ages levels?
Like, what, you know, what what kind of things are are are signs?
Hey.
This isn't really just normal adjustments issues, but this is something more serious, and we need to contact someone.
There are some signs that are kind of more general across kind of developmental stages, and then there's some that are more specific.
You know, I would say, in general, if you notice your child, if there's maybe changes in eating, sleeping habits, so, you know, you can kind of notice, like, changes in their functioning.
So eating, sleeping, is there maybe a drop in their performance in school?
Those are some things that can kinda you can look at almost across ages in a way.
For younger kids, sometimes anxiety can actually manifest as irritability.
So are they crying more?
Do they engage in more kind of what, quote, temper tantrums or outbursts, sort of things like that.
Also, you can have younger children who engage in regression.
So do they start, you know, thumb sucking or bedwetting or things like that when maybe it's something that had already been resolved?
So those can kinda be signs in younger children.
In older kids, now this is unfortunately getting old or, you know, this is happening at younger and younger ages.
Do you notice maybe your child or teen start to talk about or engage in self harm?
You know, are they talking about suicide?
Like, that's definitely an indication that indication that more help is needed.
In general, you know, do your kids seem to be more easily upset, kind of overly tense, maybe more withdrawn, kind of isolated?
Is your child maybe complaining about school or other activities?
Maybe they maybe there's a change in how your child talks about him or herself.
And, that can be kind of an indication of, oh, if they're kind of talking about themselves more negatively, maybe that's a a clue.
There's something kind of going on.
Two things to keep in mind, I think, with a lot of these is, except for the suicide part, I would always recommend reaching out if you're noticing suicide or self harm.
But in terms of some of the things I just mentioned, parents can look for intensity.
So how intense kind of or or strong is the behavior?
Is it, you know, a little bit, is there a little bit of stress or anxiety that comes with it, or does it, again, seem to interfere with functioning?
And then duration, how long does the behavior last?
You know, does it seem to does it seem to kind of resolve itself after a a few weeks or a month, or does it persist over, you know, like, a couple months, three you know, you're you're kind of stretching into the three month mark.
That might be a sign of, okay.
Maybe we need to do something different and look at getting help for our child.
You hear a lot of about bullying today.
What are what what are the indications, in a child, that they might be experiencing bullying at school or among their friends?
And, I mean, we all growing up experienced bullies in one way or another and, you know, to a larger or lesser extent and, you know, dealt with it in one way or another.
But, what are some of the indications that a child is really, being traumatized or being stressed by a bullying situation?
So a great question because I think even in the online world that this bullying actually has become more of an issue.
It's easier to be very cruel in an online setting, because there's a certain anonymity that occurs.
And so, you know, kids can just kind of blast off this, like, really cruel, vicious statement about somebody, and they don't really worry about the ramifications.
So and kids aren't always necessarily going to come right out and say, I'm worried about bullying or there's bullying going on.
So a couple things I can kind of, look for is is my child or teen, if they're in school, are they becoming more kind of, like, avoidant?
You know, are they saying they don't wanna go to school, they don't wanna go to class?
Maybe there's physical symptoms then that they kind of complain of where it seems like they're trying to get out of, you know, going to those situations.
Sometimes, actually, if we notice our kids or teens being aggressive themselves, you know, oftentimes, what has been found is bullying kind of can beget bullying in a way.
And so do we notice more kind of, like, just emotional reactivity in our children?
Now it's not to say that bullying could be the only thing that's going on there, but, you know, I'm curious if I notice kind of, like, my child say or do something that I know hasn't happened in our home.
It's like, oh, well, I wonder where that kind of came from or wonder or I wonder what's going on that maybe is contributing to that.
Another worry I, you know, I have as a parent, I know all parents do is, is my child or are my children being exposed to some type of sexual, harassment or sexual jeopardy danger?
You know?
There there there is pornography in the Internet.
There's there's, you know, a lot of activity out there that I wasn't aware of or wasn't happening when I was when I was young.
Sure.
What are the warning signs that your children are being exposed to that kind of thing in either virtually or, in school or wherever.
So yeah.
And that's another, I think, difficult one because there can be shame and embarrassment on the part of the child.
So it's not necessarily something, that they're going to come out and just share right away that, hey.
I experienced this or I saw this.
You know, somebody sent me this picture or something like that.
So this is, I think, where as parents well, first off, again, we can maybe kind of look for some of the typical signs of are they are they isolating themselves?
Do they seem a little more closed off or withdrawn?
Because if that's the case, they're kind of like if they're isolated, that might mean that there's something kind of, like, weighing on them.
So first, I think we as parents can just kind of ask what experiences have been like, and I think it's also important then to have conversations with them about about those areas.
And so, again, in an age appropriate fashion, but, like, for example, when, when our daughter goes over to, like, a sleepover, we have a a frank conversation about, like, okay.
So no devices.
You're not you know, even if a friend says getting on, like, there's no devices unless it's in the presence of an adult.
And we'll have a conversation with her about and here's the reasons why we don't want you to be we don't want you to be exposed to others, you know, certain things on the Internet that we we don't want you to be exposed to.
And then also opening the doorway of saying, if that ever does happen, know that you can always come and talk to us about it.
I guess it's so important now, maybe even more important.
It's always important for parents to be close with their their children, have that trusting relationship between parent and child where there's communication and sharing, and you can pick up on these things, at early stage.
So that's, that's Yeah.
I think that's really important.
It is.
And, I mean, you know, sometimes it can be a little discouraging as parents, you know, because I think our our child or teen, maybe they kinda, like, push back on it a little.
You know?
You got you know, they they don't want mom and dad's not cool.
They don't wanna be spending time around them, but that's more on a surface level.
When you actually look at I mean, the number of people that I've seen who carry wounds from their parents shows just the important role that having a involved parent has in a child's life.
Like, they notice.
They they pick up on those efforts.
And so much of parenting is the long game.
You know?
Okay.
You you reach out to your teen and they're still, you know, they don't wanna engage with you, but you are just consistently extending that invitation, consistently making that effort so that they that it shows.
Like, look.
This isn't I don't have, like, an agenda.
I just want to be with you and connect with you as a person.
You said something was really important, I think, not just limiting exposure to social media, but to replace that time.
A conversation with dad on the on the patio about heavy topic is not as exciting as playing Fortnite with all your friends.
So Sure.
You you gotta have something exciting as an alternative.
Like, let's go let's go, ride your go kart around, or let's, let's go let's go to the driving range and hit some golf balls, or, hey.
You wanna go to McDonald's or, you know, something like that.
You know?
It it's very important to have an appealing alternative to that virtual world that's actually amazing to look at.
I I mean, how real are these these characters?
It's it's it's it's kinda scary and and and worrisome how realistic some of this stuff is.
It is.
And in a certain to a certain degree, I I mean, I I equate kind of the the social media or the online world with junk food in a way.
Right?
It, like, it gives that kind of it's got a good taste to it, you know, right away, and, you get that maybe kind of, like, immediate immediate gratification by the number of likes you get or, like you said, on Fortnite, you've got all sorts of it's kind of scary, actually.
You know?
You've you've got all sorts of, like, reinforcers to keep you playing and kind of, like, keep you motivated.
So it's the junk food, right, that it has that kind of good taste right away, but it doesn't fill you up.
It actually leaves you craving more.
Whereas and that's not to say that we have to sit down, like you said, and have heavy conversations with our children, but we provide them more meaningful kind of, like, interactions.
And especially if you can kind of engage with them as you were highlighting around areas that they're interested in, that can be a great kind of doorway, I think, for us as parents.
One question I had, Ian, just to follow, I think that maybe the next step.
I I love the the, conceptualization of junk food, and obviously spending time.
But, to what degree can praying with your children help in this area?
Because you're putting all of our uncertainty and all the fears into the hands of our lord and, seeing mommy and daddy do that or doing it with them too.
Is that a good idea, bad idea?
How would that work?
Anecdotally, at least from my own experience, has been a a great idea.
And, again, it's you you can actually then help your children in terms of what we talked about last time, starting to bring emotions to God.
Now that can happen in family prayer, which I think is very important.
But then also talking with your children maybe about how we as parents handle our anxiety.
You know, when I get really kind of, like, frightened or upset, here's here's some things that I do.
You know, would you like to try them with me?
And that can help our children kind of, like, start to learn, oh, okay.
Like, it's okay to feel stressed.
It's okay to feel anxious, but there is a there is a God as well who cares about us and who we can turn to.
One thing we've done with our our family, is, you know, looking for things we can do together as a family.
And father mentioned prayer on, Saturday evenings.
We we have a yard.
It's it's it's fairly big, and we have a a bonfire in the backyard on Saturday evenings.
We invite families and their children over, and there's a lot of playing.
We have a trampoline and a swing set, and kids are running around, and they bring their dogs, and it's, you know, kind of pandemonium.
But then we we we pray together when when they when they've, you know, played for a while.
And and then after we finish our our prayers, we, the kids continue to play with the flashlights in the dark.
And it's just something that, you know, is work it's worked pretty well with us.
Just a suggestion, you know, like, prayer with more families, bring other kids involved, and it becomes something that, hey.
I see my my friends are doing it.
My other families are doing it.
I see hey.
This is a pretty cool thing.
It's a multi family, event, and so that's that works fairly well.
And that does a number of different things.
First off, that kind of again ties into the long game.
Right?
Like, you're through this kind of repeated act of praying together in this large group.
That's kind of your kids' teens notice that, and it's kind of, like, reinforces as normal or kind of, like, what to do.
And I think also then with, like you said, with with if they're looking at their friends, as they get older and maybe friends start to have more influence, it's actually important then to consider what kind of friends are we going to be around.
So tapping into communities like that where those shared values, that shared faith, people striving towards the same goal are present is also very important because they can see, alright.
I'm not the only one like this, and I can also see that this is what people this is what we do when we're experiencing maybe stress or anxiety.
We kind of it's okay to acknowledge that I'm stressed or anxious, and we can turn to the Lord in that as well.
And we roast a lot of marshmallows and make a lot of s'mores, and the kids that that's that's an attraction.
You know?
We So there you've got the junk food element too.
Right?
Pot.
You know?
So Right.
We're very excited about doing that.
So go through a lot of mush a lot of, marshmallows, you know, around the campfire.
Absolutely.
Another thing we've tried at times and has worked is, board games.
I grew up with board games, you know, chess and and monopoly and risk and those kind of things.
And it doesn't seem that glamorous when when you mention it, but when you get into the game and there are people around the table and and and we're interacting, there's a lot of lot of laughing and a lot of lot of competition enters in, and and that that can be a be attractive alternative at times.
So, now, can you tell me about about the clinic?
You know, you you said you're seeing children there.
What what kind of things are, are you seeing with the children who come in who need professional help?
What kind of things are they struggling with, and how do you how do you respond to that?
It was very exciting because it was just this past year that we were able to open up, for in person services, which meant we were able to bring back, child services.
So one of the the big things oftentimes where it goes back to an earlier point in the podcast.
You can kind of look at a child's school performance, you know, and as an indicator for what's kind of, like, going on emotionally.
So we we definitely see quite a few children who are maybe having difficulty, kind of, like, engaging in the class, maybe paying attention in class.
And, you know, that those can be kind of, like, behavioral issues or something more along the lines of, like, ADHD, but those can also be kind of, like, a source well, first off, it can kind of cover anxiety, and it can also be a source of anxiety for the children as well as, like, they don't wanna go to school because they're worried about getting in trouble again.
So one of the things that we we do in the clinic is, you know, as as I mentioned, child centered play therapy, which helps children to kind of in a face of or in an interaction with a counselor, or with a clinical extern, experience acceptance of their emotions, whatever those emotions might be.
And they start then learning to how kind of navigate, maybe kind of come to terms with their emotions and start learning ways of communicating them and kind of responding to them in a in a more healthy fashion.
So the more that the anxiety might be addressed, the fewer issues then, obviously, that you would see, in a school setting or home setting.
And you use play therapy.
I've I've heard this spoken of.
Yeah.
Can you can you explain what play therapy is and how it works?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Because I I mean, the play therapy, I mean, the child therapy class that I was in taught play therapy, and, again, it just resonated with me and and touched me so much that I went on and got certified then in play therapy after I had graduated, from DMU.
In play therapy, there's many different kinds of play therapy.
We specifically do child center play therapy here at the clinic, but it kind of recognizes that whereas if I had an adult in the therapy session, we, you know, we would probably sit down and we would talk through, you know, things that are going on in their life, and recurrent problems or issues would come up.
So if I have an adult who struggles with perfectionism, that's probably gonna come out over multiple sessions.
Play therapy acknowledges that children do the same thing when they play, and that play is actually the natural language through which children communicate.
So the children that I've worked with who have experienced significant traumas in their life, abuse, they've been removed from their home at a young age, they don't necessarily have the verbal capacity to, put those experiences into words, but it comes out in their play.
So oftentimes, what play therapy will look for is specific themes that a child kinda revisits, like maybe a a sense of loss of control, trying to maybe gain a sense of control over aggressive you know, through aggressive behaviors or over frightening experiences that they've had.
These sorts of things can come out in play therapy.
And then as a therapist kind of there acknowledging the child's experience and emotions, the child is able to progress through play therapy to more of a sense of integration of their emotions, you know, an ability to accept and receive their own emotions and choose to respond to them in a healthier, more prosocial fashion.
Are there other, types of therapy like play therapy?
I mean, this, I don't think most people are familiar with play therapy.
Thank you for explaining that.
Are there types of therapy that are very effective with children who are struggling with anxiety and stress, etcetera?
Yeah.
I mean, there there's a wide there's a wide variety, not just of play therapies, but of therapeutic approaches, for children.
I mean, there's, you know, there's cognitive behavioral therapies that are specifically for children.
I learned trauma focused, cognitive behavioral therapy, which is, a therapy, again, focused specifically on children who have experienced traumas.
I've had therapist friends who are art therapists, music therapists, other kind of, like, modalities that help children kind of, like, connect with and, work through maybe emotional difficulties.
So, yeah, there there's a wide variety of modalities when it comes to working with kids.
I've seen some very creative responses from therapists.
Are there, places parents can go to develop the skills they need to, to handle, like, classes or seminars or, you know, maybe things resources they can go to to improve their parenting skills, in light of what we've been discussing?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And I guess, I I'll I'll promote this a little because it's not my own work.
But, one of the biggest one of the biggest resources that I found when I first became a parent was a book by doctor Luis Gurney.
It was actually did a lot of work in play therapy and, really developed filial family therapy, which is teaching parents how to do special playtime with their kids.
But, she actually has a book called parenting skills, and it's a training manual.
And reading that book, there's no frills.
It's, you know, there's five basic skills, very kind of basic structure, but it's a very rich book.
And that helped me immensely in terms of how I approach my own kids in terms of parenting.
So I'd say that's been my number one resource, I think as a parent.
And then I would also, you know, I would if they're struggling maybe with, issues related to parenting, it's like, man, I I just don't know, you know, I don't really know what to do in this situation that therapy actually for ourselves and reaching out to maybe, a therapist who specializes in issues related to parenting can help.
Because oftentimes, we might not know how to respond, and it's okay to seek help.
And then also, sometimes just getting our own therapy can kind of help us to be better parents as well.
You know?
Our our kids are sponges in a way.
And so if we are in a kind of rough place ourselves, that can lead over to them as well.
So I think that's another important thing to address for ourselves as parents.
If somebody were, wanted information about the clinic, the IPS center, and they wanted to contact the clinic, somebody in Virginia here, what is your contact information?
How would they get in touch with you or the clinic?
The clinic has, we have an intake phone number and an intake email.
So the intake number would be 7034182111Extension1.
And then the email for inquiries is ipscenter@divinemercy.edu.
And then if there were kind of more general inquiries or things like that, you know, my own email is I masson, so my first initial and last name, .ips@divinemercy.edu.
I think that would be very helpful, and I would expect you're gonna get some questions.
We've, covered a lot of material here.
And, again, Ian, thank you so much for your time.
This was, I think, a very important, topic to discuss.
And, maybe in the future, we can dive deeper into some of these things we touched on.
So, just wanna thank you for being a a guest on our podcast, and, look forward to speaking with you again soon.
I appreciate the opportunity.
It was, something that's near and dear to my heart as a dad and as a therapist who works with kids.
So thank you.
Have a great day.
Yeah.
You too.