WEBVTT 00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:10.020 It is right to see all you here, and I know so many have joined us virtually. 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:15.305 And it's a real pleasure for me to introduce, doctor David Entwistle. 00:00:16.805 --> 00:00:29.225 We got to know each other back in the mid to late eighties, and, we both attended the same small church in New England. 00:00:29.930 --> 00:00:35.710 And I was in the process of earning my clinical doctorate in psychology. 00:00:36.570 --> 00:00:41.550 And David was at his first, postdoc job. 00:00:42.595 --> 00:00:58.190 And, one of the things I learned very early about David was never to tell him the food that you didn't like because then you knew that you were gonna get invited to his house for him to prepare that food that you didn't like. 00:00:58.490 --> 00:01:06.350 And fortunately, he's a great cook, at least with ham loaf, which might be known or unknown to many of you. 00:01:07.370 --> 00:01:08.990 But, delicious meal. 00:01:09.585 --> 00:01:17.605 And, he's currently, in faculty at North Greenville University as a distinguished professor of psychology. 00:01:18.545 --> 00:01:30.830 His BA is from Taylor University in psychology and his master's and doctoral degree in clinical psychology from Rosemead School of Psychology at Loyola University. 00:01:32.010 --> 00:01:33.710 He's a licensed psychologist. 00:01:33.930 --> 00:01:48.225 He's provided type of therapy in residential and outpatient settings, and most recently has provided clinical services to residents of long term care facility who suffer from chronic medical and psychological conditions. 00:01:49.565 --> 00:02:04.590 Probably of note for our audience this evening, his first post doc job was working as a psycho psychologist at the House of Affirmation in Massachusetts, where he worked with Catholic, priest, and religious who had psychological difficulties. 00:02:05.610 --> 00:02:14.165 He knows that it was during this time with them that it really gave him an enormous respect for the dedication of brothers, sisters, and priests. 00:02:14.945 --> 00:02:35.000 A memory that he has shared with me was talking about faith issues with an older priest, A dear memory in which at the conclusion of that talk, if older priest looked at him and said, David, I honestly think I'm going to see you in heaven. 00:02:36.115 --> 00:02:41.495 And David said, father, I honestly think I'm going to see you there too. 00:02:43.155 --> 00:02:57.540 And so part of our dialogue and discussion tonight is to look much at the commonalities that evangelical Protestants have with Roman Catholic thought in this area of psychology and theology. 00:02:58.320 --> 00:03:10.655 He's also Emeritus professor of psychology at Malone, where he taught undergraduate psychology, graduate counseling, and graduate Christian ministries from 1996 to 2020. 00:03:11.275 --> 00:03:13.935 He's been a visiting professor in Poland. 00:03:14.395 --> 00:03:27.510 He's led learning teams to Poland, Albania, Hong Kong, spent several summers as a child in Africa, with, mission stations with his family. 00:03:28.130 --> 00:03:31.750 He's published a number of books and chapters and articles. 00:03:31.810 --> 00:03:47.925 I won't go through the whole list, but the book that you'll be talking about tonight is the integrative approaches to psychology and Christianity, an introduction to worldview issues, philosophical foundations, and models of integration. 00:03:48.990 --> 00:03:56.610 And I just heard today that the fourth edition is almost going to be soon published. 00:03:58.590 --> 00:04:12.235 And, I can remember still the call that we had when I first came to, the DMU, back in the mid, probably 2014, 2015. 00:04:12.375 --> 00:04:14.555 And David was saying, hey. 00:04:15.170 --> 00:04:24.550 I'm thinking about adding a Catholic model to my book and, was kind enough to send us the draft. 00:04:24.690 --> 00:04:28.950 And I know doctor Titus was involved in looking at it, giving feedback. 00:04:29.010 --> 00:04:32.905 So we've actually had quite a long interaction back and forth. 00:04:33.765 --> 00:04:39.785 And, just delighted that you can be with us, like your lovely wife can be with us too tonight. 00:04:40.085 --> 00:04:51.380 And after the lecture, doctor Nordling and doctor Goodes, will have a panel discussion and to talk about the lecture and information of psychology and Christianity. 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:53.460 So welcome, David. 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:55.280 So glad you could be with us. 00:04:55.280 --> 00:04:56.020 Thank you. 00:05:00.235 --> 00:05:02.815 Thank you for your gracious introduction, Harvey. 00:05:03.515 --> 00:05:08.975 It's always dangerous when someone introduces you who knows you well enough that they know where the bodies are buried. 00:05:10.980 --> 00:05:26.360 I deeply appreciate the work of divine mercy in developing its Catholic Christian meta model of the person because it is a contribution not only to Catholic scholarship, but to Christian faith learning integration more broadly. 00:05:27.245 --> 00:05:35.105 So whatever small degree I may be engaged in the same divine service, I'm happy to walk on this road with you as a fellow traveler. 00:05:36.125 --> 00:05:41.985 As I prepared for this lecture, I sought to learn more about the person for whom this lecture series is named. 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:45.460 And I discovered maybe. 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:54.525 There we go. 00:05:55.485 --> 00:06:02.945 And I discovered that John Henry Newman and I have several things in common despite vast differences in time and place. 00:06:03.805 --> 00:06:11.410 Newman's spiritual journey meandered down several roads from non religious to evangelical to Anglican to Catholic. 00:06:12.270 --> 00:06:19.330 He was raised by an anti religious father and a religious mother of the Huguenot Calvinist tradition that emerged in France. 00:06:20.175 --> 00:06:26.195 While at boarding school, he had an evangelical Christian religious conversion at the age of 15. 00:06:26.895 --> 00:06:30.755 He later embarked on the Canterbury Road becoming an Anglican. 00:06:31.375 --> 00:06:38.770 Later still, he converted to Catholicism and is remembered for his influence on Catholic theology and higher education. 00:06:39.710 --> 00:06:45.410 I resonate with many of the themes that I see in Newman's life as I will discuss momentarily. 00:06:47.225 --> 00:06:57.085 As we begin a discussion about the journey to integrate Christian faith and psychology, it may be helpful to talk about, excuse me, who we are as travelers. 00:06:58.825 --> 00:07:09.590 In Gregory Schoesser's Canterbury Tales, the characters take turns telling stories as they embark on a pilgrimage to Canterbury, the center of Anglican religious life. 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:16.630 Each of the characters' stories reveals something about the disposition and outlook of the tower Of Storytellers. 00:07:18.135 --> 00:07:24.955 Most of you are walking this journey not as generic Christians, but as Roman Catholic Christians. 00:07:25.575 --> 00:07:30.635 And that gives you unique insights into faith learning integration from a Catholic perspective. 00:07:31.640 --> 00:07:38.780 And, of course, your personal life experiences and traits shape how you see the world and how you engage psychology. 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:51.795 I am traveling this road as a reformed evangelical Christian, though one who has worked in the evangelical and Catholic institutions and who currently worships in an Anglican church. 00:07:52.415 --> 00:08:01.270 So one of the things I need to do is to spend a moment explaining how my own religious background influences me on this journey. 00:08:02.290 --> 00:08:12.565 I have been raised and educated in the evangelical tradition, and a reformed theological framework has deeply influenced my life and my approach to integration. 00:08:13.745 --> 00:08:26.070 However, I generally avoid the term evangelical today unless I have the opportunity to describe what an evangelical is and what an evangelical is not. 00:08:27.270 --> 00:08:34.650 The necessity of doing so has come about because of the emergence of what is often called the white evangelical voter. 00:08:35.430 --> 00:08:43.545 Furthermore, recent research shows that many self described evangelicals do not actually hold evangelical theological positions. 00:08:44.725 --> 00:08:57.170 For our purposes, we will describe evangelicalism as as a as a diverse collection of Christians around the world who subscribe to a handful of theological positions. 00:08:58.270 --> 00:09:19.125 A high view of the authority of scripture, the belief in salvation through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the importance of personal conversion and sharing the good news of the gospel with others, and an emphasis on individual sanctification or becoming more Christ like. 00:09:24.250 --> 00:09:29.950 These propositions are fairly broad and characterize Christian belief across many denominations. 00:09:30.730 --> 00:09:41.795 So when I use the term evangelical from here on out, this is what I have in mind rather than the sorts of definitions used by pollsters, journalists, and political pundits. 00:09:43.215 --> 00:09:54.100 I've also been shared by several specific evangelical streams of thought, in particular, the reformed tradition, which has had a major influence on Protestant Christian higher education. 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:14.145 Abraham Kuyper, a leader of the nineteenth and twentieth century Dutch Reformed Church in The Netherlands, has had an outsized influence on Protestant Christian higher education in The United States even among universities that are not affiliated with the Calvinist tradition. 00:10:15.020 --> 00:10:26.880 In fact, most of the universities I have been affiliated with are more Wesleyan than Calvinist, but the imprint of the reformed tradition on Christian higher education is remarkable. 00:10:27.965 --> 00:10:40.785 The reformed tradition emphasizes the importance of developing a Christian worldview framed around the themes of creation, fall, redemption, and consummation. 00:10:41.710 --> 00:10:45.810 As a context for understanding our place in the world. 00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:51.090 However, this context is not simply an intellectual framework. 00:10:51.870 --> 00:10:59.845 As one reformed writer cautions, the Christian life is not just a matter of getting one's worldview straight. 00:11:00.385 --> 00:11:11.590 The Christian life is characterized by sanctification expressed in daily conduct that shows the fruit of our core commitments and belongings. 00:11:13.010 --> 00:11:30.455 While much of my thinking has been influenced by this intellectual tradition, I have also been influenced by sojourning with Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Mennonites, Quakers, Wesleyans, Baptists, Presbyterians, and a host of other Christian traditions. 00:11:31.635 --> 00:11:35.895 In fact, I sometimes borrow Robert Roberts' ecclesiastical description. 00:11:36.950 --> 00:11:42.650 I am denominationally promiscuous, at least in the best sense of the word. 00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:51.395 The story of integration that I would like to discuss today does not begin with the evangelicals or reformed theologians. 00:11:52.975 --> 00:11:56.595 The conversation begins much earlier in church history. 00:11:57.295 --> 00:12:12.510 It begins with disagreements in the first centuries after Christ's life, death, and resurrection as the church grappled with how to reconcile apostolic teaching with teaching that came from non Christian philosophers. 00:12:13.770 --> 00:12:23.745 Saint Augustine is, of course, one of the church fathers that influenced how the church interacted with the wisdom and the folly of non Christian philosophers. 00:12:24.845 --> 00:12:28.145 But our story begins even earlier. 00:12:28.690 --> 00:12:29.010 Excuse me. 00:12:29.010 --> 00:12:30.550 I'm just getting over some laryngitis. 00:12:34.370 --> 00:12:45.535 Nearly two hundred years before the birth of Saint Augustine, another influential or another influential early Christian theologian, Tertullian, was born. 00:12:46.715 --> 00:12:55.055 Tertullian is best known for his rhetorical question, what indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:06.580 Tertullian prompted us to reflect on what Athens representing Greek philosophy had to do with Jerusalem representing Christian theology. 00:13:08.175 --> 00:13:22.515 Dutch reforms philosopher Nicholas Wolterstorff characterizes this as Tertullian's enduring question because it is a question with which we must continue to struggle. 00:13:24.510 --> 00:13:32.530 What kind of dialogue should be held between the secular academy and the teachings of the church? 00:13:33.390 --> 00:13:55.710 In my lecture notes, secular is written in quotation marks Because part of my assumption is that all knowledge is inextricably bound to God's grace, whether or would not we acknowledge that truth, and regardless of the religiosity or irreligiosity of those who discover truth. 00:13:56.890 --> 00:14:07.470 So in one sense, there is no such thing as secular knowledge because all truth is sacred in its reflection of God's revelation. 00:14:08.995 --> 00:14:11.415 Still, Tertullian's question remains. 00:14:12.195 --> 00:14:18.055 For those of us in this room today, however, we might want to focus on a variation of that question. 00:14:19.555 --> 00:14:23.015 What do Vienna and Leipzig have to do with Jerusalem? 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:30.220 Or perhaps today, we should specifically say, what does Vienna and Leipzig have to do with Rome? 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:37.180 But since I'm a Protestant, I think we'll stick with the metaphor of Jerusalem, the origin of the Christian faith. 00:14:37.805 --> 00:14:47.185 While acknowledging that most of you in this room were approaching this question from the eyes of Jerusalem and from your specific Roman Catholic tradition. 00:14:50.150 --> 00:14:54.890 So why might we refer in this talk to Vienna and Leipzig rather than Athens? 00:14:55.750 --> 00:14:59.290 Vienna, of course, represents the emergence of modern psychotherapy. 00:15:00.390 --> 00:15:07.745 Three major schools of psychotherapy emerged for Indiana in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds. 00:15:08.605 --> 00:15:15.345 Freud's psychoanalysis, Adler's individual psychology, and Frunkle's logotherapy. 00:15:17.050 --> 00:15:28.750 While these three psychotherapies do not encapsulate every therapeutic approach, they do represent emphasis that continue to be important to modern psychotherapy. 00:15:30.375 --> 00:15:35.435 What is the nature of the unconscious mind and its relationship to psychopathology? 00:15:37.015 --> 00:15:45.960 What roles do our individual assumptions about the nature of the world and our social context play in psychological and family adjustment? 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:48.920 What gives meaning to life? 00:15:49.540 --> 00:15:56.840 And how do we face issues of existential anxiety and existential guilt of freedom and responsibility? 00:15:58.505 --> 00:16:08.925 There are many theories of psychopathology and many models of psychotherapy, and Vienna stands as a metaphorical representation for these concerns. 00:16:10.380 --> 00:16:16.000 Leipzig, on the other hand, is the place identified with modern empirical psychological science. 00:16:16.780 --> 00:16:28.615 When Wilhelm Wundt established his psychological laboratory in 1879 at the University of Leipzig, we embarked on the empirical study of human behavior. 00:16:29.955 --> 00:16:33.415 Prior to this, psychology had been part of philosophy. 00:16:36.540 --> 00:16:52.985 But when Voigt demonstrated that we could study many psychological phenomena using the scientific method, psychology largely shifted from being a metaphysical discipline to being a physical discipline. 00:16:53.845 --> 00:17:05.865 Today, we have all kinds of quantitative and qualitative methods that Flint did not have, as well as complex neuroimaging techniques and the other ways of studying the brain and behavior. 00:17:06.810 --> 00:17:10.910 But for our purposes, Leipzig can represent empirical psychology. 00:17:12.570 --> 00:17:16.110 So what does Jerusalem have to do with Vienna and Leipzig? 00:17:16.890 --> 00:17:25.655 How should Christians today think about the field of psychology in both its psychotherapeutic and its empirical expressions? 00:17:26.515 --> 00:17:29.255 That is what I hope that we can address today. 00:17:30.035 --> 00:17:36.215 To do so, however, we must recognize that we are entering a dialogue that precedes the emergence of modern psychology. 00:17:37.490 --> 00:17:49.030 Long before Christians wondered how to engage the work of Freud and Phones, they were asking broader questions about how to engage secular learning in general. 00:17:50.925 --> 00:17:56.785 Why was the relationship of Athens and Jerusalem a burning question for Tertullian? 00:17:58.125 --> 00:18:05.830 Tertullian wanted to show that our allegiance is to the faith as revealed in Christ and in apostolic teaching. 00:18:06.690 --> 00:18:09.830 Secular teaching can lead us astray. 00:18:11.490 --> 00:18:20.025 Tertullian believed that the apostle Paul had singled out philosophy, the secular learning of Athens, as a threat to Christian faith. 00:18:20.745 --> 00:18:27.965 If you have ever visited Mars Hill on the Acropolis in Athens, it is not hard to get this picture. 00:18:29.065 --> 00:18:37.430 Everywhere you look, idols and temples compete for our affections, our attention, and our worship. 00:18:38.290 --> 00:18:50.885 Yet even here, the apostle Paul saw an inroad for the gospel as he preached the famous Mars Hill sermon, beginning with a reference to an unknown god. 00:18:51.905 --> 00:18:56.085 Paul bought brought Jerusalem to Athens. 00:18:57.905 --> 00:19:05.540 A contemporary of Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, held a position that was quite different from that of Tertullian. 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:12.020 Clement believed that truth can be found through the grace given to all humankind by God. 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:19.335 In Clement's view, there was clearly truth in Greek philosophy because all that is true comes from God. 00:19:19.955 --> 00:19:28.615 Thus, Christians could learn from Athenian philosophy, and philosophy could, in fact, pave the way for conversion. 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:43.780 In his words, philosophy, quote, was given to the Greeks as a covenant peculiar to them, being as it is, a stepping stone to the philosophy which is according to Christ. 00:19:46.765 --> 00:19:54.545 By the time we get to Saint Augustine, we have a working arrangement where philosophy and theology exist in continuous dialogue. 00:19:55.485 --> 00:20:08.900 In fact, the path to August Augustine's conversion ran through Cicero, a pagan philosopher from whom he learned that rhetoric was not principally about winning arguments. 00:20:10.335 --> 00:20:14.595 It is about a means of seeking truth. 00:20:15.455 --> 00:20:21.075 It remained, though, for Bishop Ambrose to introduce Augustine to truth with a capital t. 00:20:22.350 --> 00:20:31.730 Following in Augustine's lineage, one cannot read Thomas Aquinas without recognizing that philosophy is useful in constructing theology. 00:20:32.750 --> 00:20:41.185 The nineteenth century Christian existential philosopher, Nikolai Beriev, was even more explicit about the necessity of philosophy for theology. 00:20:41.885 --> 00:20:45.985 In his view, quote, theology is not revelation. 00:20:46.845 --> 00:21:00.840 It is a collective socially organized perceptual reaction to revelation that is organized along categories that are supplied by some form of philosophy. 00:21:02.340 --> 00:21:07.320 Nonetheless, tensions still remain between Athens and Jerusalem. 00:21:12.845 --> 00:21:23.265 Pope John Paul the second alluded to the tensions between Athens and Jerusalem, though not by name, in a papal encyclical addressed to Catholic universities. 00:21:24.840 --> 00:21:44.525 Quoting himself, John Paul the second said, a Catholic university's privileged task is to unite existentially by intellectual effort to orders of reality that too frequently tend to be placed in opposition as though they were antithetical. 00:21:45.625 --> 00:21:52.130 The search for truth and the certainty of already knowing the felt of truth. 00:21:53.310 --> 00:22:09.285 John Paul the second reminds us that we are extending a dialogue that stretches back from Tertullian, Clement, Augustine, Aquinas, and theologians throughout the past two thousand years to address contemporary issues. 00:22:11.105 --> 00:22:29.310 As Christians who are engaged in psychology, whether clinical psychology as represented by Vienna or any of the academic subfields of psychology represented by Leipzig, we need to ask ourselves how our faith is lived out in our professions. 00:22:30.605 --> 00:22:37.025 In my textbook on integration, I essentially look at six possible ways that we can answer this question. 00:22:38.605 --> 00:22:44.945 First, there are those who see Christianity and psychology as moral enemies. 00:22:46.230 --> 00:22:51.610 John Paul the second remarks on the commonality of this approach in the quotation that I just mentioned. 00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:57.290 Some people see sacred and secular learning in opposition to one another. 00:22:58.115 --> 00:23:04.135 In the Protestant tradition, this is a view commonly found among Christians from fundamentalist backgrounds. 00:23:05.475 --> 00:23:10.295 One influential Protestant preacher who died this past year put it bluntly. 00:23:11.155 --> 00:23:18.580 In his view, the psychiatrist has usurped the work of the physician, but mostly the work of the preacher. 00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:27.060 And he engages in this work without warrant from God, without the aid of the scriptures, and without regard to the Holy Spirit. 00:23:27.665 --> 00:23:33.525 Thus, he seeks to change the behavior and values of people in an ungodly manner. 00:23:34.225 --> 00:23:37.685 In so far as he succeeds, the results may be feared. 00:23:38.545 --> 00:23:52.230 The work of changing men's lives belongs to the Christian ministry in particular and to Christian people in general, not to some self appointed cast of humanistic priests that has moved into the church's territory. 00:23:53.615 --> 00:23:58.815 Never fighting words. 00:23:58.815 --> 00:24:01.635 Another contemporary pastor put it this way. 00:24:02.095 --> 00:24:05.875 The rush to embrace psychology within the church is frankly mystifying. 00:24:06.870 --> 00:24:11.370 Psychology and Christianity have been enemies since the beginning. 00:24:12.630 --> 00:24:16.170 He further asserted that only the Christian can study the soul. 00:24:16.790 --> 00:24:19.515 Only the Christian can see our deepest spiritual needs. 00:24:20.075 --> 00:24:27.935 In his view, relying on secular psychology is denying what he calls the sufficiency of Christ to meet our needs. 00:24:29.035 --> 00:24:40.540 Such individuals are in part reacting to hostility towards religion by secular psychologists and to an ardent defense of their view of the faith. 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.060 They follow what I call the enemy's moral. 00:24:45.560 --> 00:25:03.055 While I believe that there's a great deal to critique in this view, including a gross misunderstanding of psychology and some questionable theological assumptions, I think one can be gracious in seeing some elements of Tertullian's view in the approach. 00:25:04.270 --> 00:25:07.810 They fear that psychology can lead people astray. 00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:12.210 They fear that pastors can lose their proper place in the confessional. 00:25:13.390 --> 00:25:24.255 They fear that the church can lose its moral authority in dealing with deep questions of how we should live, of our origins, and of our tell us. 00:25:25.035 --> 00:25:31.770 They perceive that we might exchange sanctification for self realization and self aggrandizement. 00:25:33.110 --> 00:25:40.570 And much as I disagree with your overall model, I believe that in these points, they are right. 00:25:41.350 --> 00:25:46.485 There are dangers, and we ignore these dangers to our peril. 00:25:47.265 --> 00:25:51.125 But I do not think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 00:25:56.145 --> 00:26:11.520 A second way of engaging psychology and religion is to simply be interested in the potential benefits of religious belief or for that matter, just studying why people hold one religious belief for another or no religious belief at all. 00:26:12.365 --> 00:26:14.145 I call this the spies model. 00:26:14.765 --> 00:26:17.905 This is not meant to be a disparaging title. 00:26:18.525 --> 00:26:33.970 I'm sure that in our day to day lives, we have all learned a lot by eavesdropping on conversations, investigating opportunities, doing due diligence, and inspecting opportunities. 00:26:35.310 --> 00:26:39.330 We can learn a lot about religious life without being religious. 00:26:40.635 --> 00:26:49.295 William James offers many penetrating insights into religious experience in his classic work, the varieties of religious experience. 00:26:50.475 --> 00:26:57.550 The psychology of religion is a venerable and useful approach to understanding religiosity. 00:26:59.850 --> 00:27:14.215 While the enemies model was found mostly among fundamentalists in the Protestant tradition, this model was more commonly found among those from liberal religious backgrounds and it is the approach that is taken in the psychology of religion. 00:27:15.315 --> 00:27:21.415 It is fascinating to think about the psychological factors that influence psychological belief. 00:27:22.115 --> 00:27:28.430 After all, grace is perfected in nature as Thomas Aquinas told us. 00:27:29.850 --> 00:27:35.950 We are not disembodied souls or individuals devoid of personal experiences and culture. 00:27:36.810 --> 00:27:44.405 There is a lot of value in studying things like positive and negative religious scoping and many other religious phenomena. 00:27:45.665 --> 00:27:52.245 But a problem in this way of thinking about psychology and religion is that it tends towards reductionism. 00:27:53.750 --> 00:28:12.045 If by studying Christian faith and practice as an object, you remove the reality of sin and salvation and sanctification as genuine existential concerns, you have lost the essence of religious experience and religious faith. 00:28:12.985 --> 00:28:24.240 Moreover, if we see religion as valuable only for its tangible benefits, we have fallen into what sociologist Chris Smith calls moralistic therapeutic theism. 00:28:25.100 --> 00:28:30.720 So, again, there are benefits in this model, but there are problems as well. 00:28:32.860 --> 00:28:39.145 A third approach for relating psychology and Christianity is what I call the colonialist model. 00:28:41.605 --> 00:28:45.865 People who follow this model want to preserve orthodoxy. 00:28:46.800 --> 00:28:56.180 They see in psychology certain benefits that they are willing to borrow, but without deeply engaging the discipline of psychology. 00:28:57.600 --> 00:29:03.065 Pop psychology can make interesting sermon, illustrations after all. 00:29:03.925 --> 00:29:10.505 But these people never really get around to reading psychological journal articles. 00:29:11.365 --> 00:29:13.385 Again, there are good things in this model. 00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:15.620 They see value in orthodoxy. 00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:17.860 They see value in psychology. 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:31.305 But rather than engaging the field with diligence and deep Christian thought, they are content to plunder the Egyptians and keep psychology at a safe distance. 00:29:31.305 --> 00:29:35.645 So that brings us to a fourth model, which I call the neutral parties model. 00:29:36.185 --> 00:29:43.710 There are those who think that psychology and Christianity are both fine things to engage in, but they need to be kept in their own corners. 00:29:44.410 --> 00:29:50.910 When in Rome do as the Romans, and so in Athens or Jerusalem or Leipzig or Vienna. 00:29:51.690 --> 00:30:04.615 Their concern is that we do not contaminate our sign objective scientific psychology with Christian presuppositions and that we do not reduce our faith to a psychological phenomena. 00:30:05.810 --> 00:30:12.710 This model is common among psychologists who were trained with a modernist conception of science and who engage in research. 00:30:13.330 --> 00:30:23.705 The two most prominent figures here would be Malcolm Jeeves, who studied cognitive psychology and neuropsychology, and David Myers, a social psychologist. 00:30:25.205 --> 00:30:28.505 I have enormous respect for these two men. 00:30:28.965 --> 00:30:34.105 They are deeply committed Christians, and they are first rate scholars. 00:30:35.350 --> 00:30:46.250 But I am not convinced that the modernist conception of scientific objective objectivity is at all possible or even desirable. 00:30:47.350 --> 00:30:50.570 We all begin with certain assumptions that are foundational. 00:30:52.045 --> 00:30:56.705 Metaphysical assumptions are not generally available to empirical scrutiny. 00:30:57.725 --> 00:31:00.785 I do not go to Athens as a blank slate. 00:31:01.245 --> 00:31:04.785 I go there as someone who is already committed to the city of God. 00:31:05.810 --> 00:31:19.750 As such, that will introduce into the equation what Nicholas Woltersdorf calls control beliefs and which I believe are at least partly expressed in a Christian worldview, which we will discuss later. 00:31:21.185 --> 00:31:43.780 The supposed commitment to objectivity in this model seems to me to be a mirage, and I do not think that the attempt to segregate faith from psychology is either possible or desirable except to the degree the unique methods of each discipline are clearly confined to their respective concerns. 00:31:44.320 --> 00:31:53.255 In other words, one uses rationality and empiricism in psychology, and one uses rationality and hermeneutics in doing theology. 00:31:55.075 --> 00:32:14.560 I describe a fifth model, which is characteristic of those who think that psychology is redeemable, but only by creating an entirely new type of psychology built on Christian foundations and drawing heavily on scripture and wisdom drawn from Christian tradition. 00:32:18.125 --> 00:32:24.465 Eric Johnson is the person who is most associated with this approach, and I think that it has much value. 00:32:25.645 --> 00:32:34.320 The Society for Christian Psychology, which Eric founded, exists to promote the development of a distinctly Christian psychology. 00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:47.845 This model is extremely valuable in that it takes Christian scripture and Christian tradition seriously, and it desires to engage in dialogue with modern psychology. 00:32:49.185 --> 00:32:59.240 In practice, however, this is primarily a counseling approach, and I am not convinced that it works well as a way of engaging all of psychology. 00:33:00.820 --> 00:33:07.080 Finally, there is a sixth model, which I call allies as subjects of one sovereign. 00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:18.225 This approach is held by people who think their robust dialogue can be held between Christian faith and secular, again in quotation marks, psychology. 00:33:19.725 --> 00:33:30.150 Like Clement, people who follow this model see the so called secular disciplines as means through which God's grace allows us to learn about God's world. 00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:40.310 But it also takes seriously Tertullian's concern that the assumptions held in Athens can be wrong and can lead us astray. 00:33:41.345 --> 00:33:52.965 This model acknowledges and even celebrates the fact that Jerusalem or Rome, in your case, makes serious demands on what we believe. 00:33:53.870 --> 00:34:04.850 It grounds our understanding in a sacred framework which begins not with us, but with the God who created us, who formed us with dust. 00:34:06.205 --> 00:34:09.025 We are also given a unique role in creation. 00:34:09.485 --> 00:34:37.335 In fact, we participate with God in the unfolding of creation to the degree that we worship God, form societies based on justice, tend to the garden by learning about and caring for the created world, and participate in God's redemptive work as we strive to bring peace, reconciliation, and shalom to the brokenness of the lives of ourselves and our relationships. 00:34:38.675 --> 00:34:45.575 Unless we understand that we are created by God and for God, we are utterly lost. 00:34:46.700 --> 00:34:52.400 We are, as Mary Stewart Van Lewin said, characters in search of an author. 00:34:53.100 --> 00:35:01.040 Or as Pope Benedict said, without God, man neither knows which way to go nor even understands who he is. 00:35:02.915 --> 00:35:13.815 The controlled beliefs, which I mentioned earlier, are at least partly reflected in a reformed evangelical view of creation, fall, redemption, and consummation. 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:22.780 These concepts are not unique to the reform perspective, and they can also be found in other Christian traditions. 00:35:23.080 --> 00:35:26.220 And they're certainly evident in Augustine's thinking. 00:35:27.160 --> 00:35:34.185 To the degree that we air in understanding these concepts, we will misunderstand who we are. 00:35:35.205 --> 00:35:41.705 While these concepts come from Jerusalem, note that they are formed through logical categories. 00:35:42.725 --> 00:35:50.690 As my college professor or, philosophy professor argued, systematic theology requires philosophical prolegomena. 00:35:51.950 --> 00:35:54.610 Clear thinking is learned in Athens. 00:35:55.310 --> 00:36:01.650 And as Saint Thomas Aquinas demonstrates, clear thinking is invaluable in constructing theology. 00:36:02.725 --> 00:36:12.825 For the purposes of understanding human behavior and treating interpersonal and intrapersonal problems, we must go further though, the theology alone. 00:36:13.445 --> 00:36:19.880 We can also learn by exploring human beings through philosophical and scientific categories. 00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:25.240 Jerusalem teaches us who we are in the context of God's unfolding story. 00:36:26.020 --> 00:36:32.120 Vienna can help us understand things about human brokenness that we cannot learn from Jerusalem. 00:36:33.185 --> 00:36:40.005 And Leipzig may help us learn things about human neurology that we do not find in the pages of holy scripture. 00:36:45.265 --> 00:36:52.890 I think that each of these six models that I described embody a way of trying to answer enduring question. 00:36:53.830 --> 00:36:57.610 I think that each of these models has important things to teach us. 00:36:58.310 --> 00:37:07.825 I do not, however, think that each of these models are of equal quality, which is why I embrace the sixth approach to integrating psychology and Christianity. 00:37:09.725 --> 00:37:17.025 I think we can also gain some insight from Flannery O'Connor in her reflections on being a Christian writer. 00:37:19.070 --> 00:37:31.250 In an essay about writing, O'Connor Flannery O'Connor asserted that writers must deal with reality, and then an honest author must begin with deformed characters. 00:37:32.285 --> 00:37:35.985 I think that this is true for us as Christian psychologists as well. 00:37:36.285 --> 00:37:47.425 Our subject matter as human beings made in the very image of God placed in a world full of blessings, but our subjects and the world they inhabit are also broken. 00:37:48.580 --> 00:37:51.400 Not irredeemably broken, but broken nonetheless. 00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:59.720 O'Connor goes on to say that Christian belief shapes what we see, how we write, and how we live. 00:38:01.235 --> 00:38:06.375 I am no disbeliever in spiritual purpose and no vague believer. 00:38:07.235 --> 00:38:09.975 I see from the standpoint of Christian orthodoxy. 00:38:11.075 --> 00:38:16.375 This means that for me, the meaning of life is centered in our redemption by Christ. 00:38:16.490 --> 00:38:20.750 And what I see in the world, I see in relation to that. 00:38:21.690 --> 00:38:25.150 I don't think this is a position that can be taken halfway. 00:38:26.410 --> 00:38:32.525 Redemption is meaningless unless there is cause for it in the actual life we live. 00:38:33.225 --> 00:38:42.685 And for the last few centuries, there has been operating in our culture the secular belief that there is no such cause. 00:38:45.440 --> 00:39:02.745 Christians who study psychology in any of its subdisciplines are confronted with the same tension between creation and fall, between the fallen beings that we are and the redemption of all things in Christ in the now and the not yet of history. 00:39:03.685 --> 00:39:09.705 We must constantly hold intention that we are created in the image of God and follow. 00:39:10.565 --> 00:39:18.270 It is said that a Polish rabbi from the eighteen hundreds instructed people to carry two pieces of paper, one in each pocket. 00:39:19.130 --> 00:39:28.670 The paper in one pocket says, for my sake was the world created, while the other says, I am but dust and ashes. 00:39:29.735 --> 00:39:34.155 The two pieces of paper emphasize our divine origin and our finitude. 00:39:35.015 --> 00:39:39.675 To this, we must add that we are not just finite, we are following. 00:39:40.775 --> 00:39:52.340 When we emphasize the Imago Dei at the expense of the fact that we are finite and following or vice versa, we end up with a distorted view of who we are. 00:39:53.680 --> 00:39:59.465 Just as in the Roman Catholic view, a reformed evangelical view holds these truths intention. 00:40:00.725 --> 00:40:06.825 Allow me to illustrate part of the story of how I embrace the reformed evangelical approach to integration. 00:40:08.245 --> 00:40:22.940 As an undergraduate at a Christian college, sitting in a theories of personality class, I remember confronting a contradiction between my theological belief in human depravity and the psychological view of human goodness. 00:40:25.485 --> 00:40:32.305 In the class, we were studying Carl Rogers' concept of the organismic valuing process. 00:40:35.965 --> 00:40:46.900 Raised in the Presbyterian church, Rogers somehow managed to reject the idea of total depravity and replace it with a view of autonomous and innate good. 00:40:47.600 --> 00:40:53.860 To be fair, the Christian historian would tell us that this view of human potential wasn't original to Rogers. 00:40:54.555 --> 00:40:59.695 It emerged over hundreds of years flowing from the enlightenment into the modern era. 00:41:00.475 --> 00:41:09.695 Rogers was, of course, a product of his time, but he also shaped the direction of psychology for decades to come. 00:41:10.580 --> 00:41:15.880 It still surprises me how many of my students walk away enamored with Rogers. 00:41:16.820 --> 00:41:19.400 But then what's not to like? 00:41:20.660 --> 00:41:25.525 The mantra of our day is, I'm okay, and you're okay. 00:41:26.465 --> 00:41:28.405 Let me just be who I am. 00:41:29.345 --> 00:41:30.645 What's not to like? 00:41:31.425 --> 00:41:32.325 It's a lie. 00:41:33.905 --> 00:41:38.245 I am not okay, and you are not okay. 00:41:38.780 --> 00:41:42.720 And god forbid that you should leave me as I am. 00:41:44.220 --> 00:41:47.760 But it is such an appealing lie. 00:41:50.060 --> 00:41:55.985 I think perhaps that it was in studying Rogers that I first began to form my nascent ideas about integration. 00:41:57.405 --> 00:42:08.630 Certainly, I could critique Rogers to a theological viewpoint, but I can also see that his conception of humankind was truncated rather than completely wrong. 00:42:09.490 --> 00:42:12.070 We are made a little lower than the angels. 00:42:13.170 --> 00:42:23.125 We are made in the very image of god, but we are also fallen in sin, self deceived, and deceivers of others. 00:42:23.905 --> 00:42:28.085 Some of my inner pulse inner impulses are good and godly. 00:42:28.785 --> 00:42:30.725 Some of them are corrupt and evil. 00:42:31.580 --> 00:42:35.200 Yet it is not good enough to critique Rogers theologically. 00:42:36.220 --> 00:42:39.760 For the psychologist, the research mantra is clear. 00:42:40.220 --> 00:42:42.240 Show me the data. 00:42:43.195 --> 00:42:45.055 And what did the data tell us? 00:42:45.675 --> 00:42:52.095 That some of our impulses aren't good, though the secular psychologists wouldn't use the word godly. 00:42:52.955 --> 00:42:55.295 And some of our impulses are what? 00:42:56.430 --> 00:43:07.090 Prejudiced, self serving, biased, shaped by cognitive distortions and faulty learning histories and unconscious impulses. 00:43:08.755 --> 00:43:08.995 True. 00:43:08.995 --> 00:43:17.095 The psychologist will not likely use the word sinful, but the message is clear that Rogers gives us only part of the picture. 00:43:18.275 --> 00:43:28.270 Few clinical psychologists challenged this view, although Carl Menninger had the temerity to ask the question, whatever became of sin? 00:43:29.050 --> 00:43:33.950 And Paul Vitz pointed out that psychology easily morphs into self worship. 00:43:36.565 --> 00:43:42.985 Let me share a story of a student who is recently struggling through these issues in one of my classes. 00:43:44.005 --> 00:43:54.840 In my integration class, each of my students is asked to write an extensive paper in which they reflect on their own emerging views of the relationship of religion and psychology. 00:43:56.020 --> 00:44:03.640 For nonreligious students, I expect that they will think about what religion might provide as a source of human wisdom and folly. 00:44:04.485 --> 00:44:09.385 And I want to see them grapple with the implications of positive and negative religious coping. 00:44:10.325 --> 00:44:22.400 Even if they do not consider themselves to be religious people, they need to recognize that religion is an important framework for how many people understand the world and how they attempt to live their lives. 00:44:23.740 --> 00:44:29.200 For Christian students, however, I want them to grapple with the issues that we have been discussing. 00:44:30.220 --> 00:44:34.320 I tell them that I want them to be honest in their papers. 00:44:34.445 --> 00:44:42.465 I do not want them to just regurgitate what I believe, and I encourage them to come up with their own models. 00:44:43.485 --> 00:44:46.545 This past year, a student did come up with her own model. 00:44:47.100 --> 00:44:51.760 She desperately wanted to keep psychology and religion segregated. 00:44:54.140 --> 00:45:05.335 Rather than adapt adopt the neutral party's model, though, her idea was that there are two different trains and two railroad tracks that deliver goods to a station. 00:45:06.435 --> 00:45:10.455 If a religious need is found, you call for the religious train. 00:45:10.995 --> 00:45:14.775 If a need is psychological, you call for the psychology train. 00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:21.860 I found myself thinking about her model for days after reading her paper. 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:26.880 It's supposed to be on a blank screen. 00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.380 Oh. 00:45:34.415 --> 00:45:35.395 Where was it? 00:45:38.495 --> 00:45:39.055 A trade. 00:45:39.055 --> 00:45:43.235 I found myself thinking about her model for days after reading her paper. 00:45:43.830 --> 00:45:52.090 In attempting to keep psychology and religion separate, all she really did was change the nature of questions, but she hadn't noticed this. 00:45:53.190 --> 00:45:57.785 Who decides if the need is religious or psychological? 00:45:59.445 --> 00:46:03.785 Who creates the goods that are delivered by each train system? 00:46:05.125 --> 00:46:16.880 Who inspects the contents to see if the goods are fresh or spoiled, healthy or unhealthy, who calls for the theology passenger train or the psychoanalytic express. 00:46:18.380 --> 00:46:32.005 I have a great deal of sympathy for this student's desire to segregate religion and psychology, and I can imagine a million reasons why this might seem to be a congenial solution to Tertullian's enduring question. 00:46:33.505 --> 00:46:42.110 But I don't think it works, Or at least I don't think it works if Jerusalem represents something closer to Augustine's city of God. 00:46:42.970 --> 00:46:53.285 If God reigns over both Athens and Jerusalem, then we cannot simply segregate them from each other or eliminate one or the other. 00:46:54.225 --> 00:47:07.090 Christians may disagree on how Athens or Vienna or Leipzig relates to Jerusalem, but I do not think we can put them in hermetically sealed containers carefully cordoned off from one another. 00:47:08.110 --> 00:47:18.850 I may disagree with how other Christians attempt to relate Athens and Jerusalem, but I respect that each approach raises important issues that we need to take seriously. 00:47:20.655 --> 00:47:31.715 Christian philosopher, Nicholas Woltersdorf, contends that Tertullian's question is the enduring question for the Christian academic. 00:47:32.770 --> 00:47:42.070 What does the Christian gospel have to do with the enterprise of scholarship, in particular with the scholarship of those who are not Christian? 00:47:43.410 --> 00:47:51.735 Walter Storff points out that Tertullian's question would not have endured if the church had settled on an answer, but it has not. 00:47:52.515 --> 00:48:01.350 Likewise, in our day, there is not universal agreement on how we as Christians should think about psychology or any other academic discipline. 00:48:02.450 --> 00:48:07.990 This means that we will have intramural squabbles about how to answer the question. 00:48:08.770 --> 00:48:20.705 It means that we will need to have humility and to search for nuggets of truth in those views with which we disagree even as we disagree strongly, but hopefully with charity. 00:48:21.645 --> 00:48:38.890 Where Tertullian sees opposition between the church and pagan philosophy, Clement of Alexandria sees pagan philosophy as a gift from God insofar as it teaches and leads to truth without, of course, sanctioning all of what was taught by pagan philosophy. 00:48:40.395 --> 00:48:45.375 Despite their differences though, Tertullian and Clement can both instruct us. 00:48:46.235 --> 00:48:51.215 Tertullian warns us of the dangers of being seduced into a secular worldview. 00:48:52.410 --> 00:48:56.990 Clement celebrates the good gifts of God wherever they may be found. 00:48:58.090 --> 00:49:06.510 Augustine and Aquinas demonstrate how deep philosophical reflections and theology inform and enrich each other. 00:49:07.505 --> 00:49:18.085 The issues that we deal with today may be new, but they coalesce in patterns that are forerunners in the faith dealt with centuries ago. 00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:20.470 C. 00:49:20.470 --> 00:49:33.850 Stephen Evans, another Christian philosopher who is interested in, psychology and, Christian integration, suggests that there will be a diversity of approaches to integration. 00:49:34.145 --> 00:49:35.365 He makes two assertions. 00:49:36.945 --> 00:49:42.005 The project of integrating Christianity into psychology is itself pluralistic. 00:49:43.025 --> 00:49:53.260 Different Christians who may be equally faithful to their Christian colleagues may disagree about the implications of Christian faith for various issues in psychology. 00:49:54.680 --> 00:50:06.145 Nonetheless, faithful Christians can hope to find common ground in mere Christianity to constitute a genuine community that can make progress. 00:50:06.605 --> 00:50:12.865 Here, he's using CS Lewis's, term mere Christianity as the core of what we all believe. 00:50:14.610 --> 00:50:24.070 It is at this point that I would like to end by commenting on a particular advantage that Catholic thinkers have compared to Protestant thinkers when it comes to integration. 00:50:25.250 --> 00:50:33.665 The first book on faith learning integration that I read was a small tone by two men who would later be my professors, Bruce Naramore and John Carter. 00:50:34.525 --> 00:50:40.465 When I first read their book on integration, I remember finishing it and thinking that something was missing. 00:50:41.720 --> 00:50:49.820 After reflecting on this for years, I think part of what was missing was a solid sense of a theological beginning point. 00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:57.180 This came into even sharper focus as a result of reading the book, which the faculty of Divine Mercy put together. 00:50:58.065 --> 00:51:02.645 Allow me to quote from an email that I wrote to doctor Vitz, which illustrates this observation. 00:51:04.625 --> 00:51:19.070 I have been working my way through a Catholic Christian mental model, and I would like to thank you and your colleagues for writing a much needed resource for integration, not just for Catholics, but for Christians in other traditions as well. 00:51:21.050 --> 00:51:34.585 I was especially struck by your insight about the difficulty of identifying mere Christianity and of the difficulty of defining this concept and the limits it creates for Protestant integration. 00:51:36.245 --> 00:51:50.000 As a graduate student in the eighties, I sensed this problem when I read Carter and Ermore's text on integration, and I immediately recognized that their little book was missing a core framework that could define what Christianity is. 00:51:51.020 --> 00:51:55.600 This trend has only accelerated over the years even in evangelical circles. 00:51:56.465 --> 00:52:03.285 I tried to create some basic frameworks to define the core mere Christianity in my integration text. 00:52:03.425 --> 00:52:09.445 But in so doing, I recognized that many who call themselves Christian are outside of this framework. 00:52:10.620 --> 00:52:21.680 I believe that you are quite correct that Catholics have an advantage here that the catechism and the teachings of the church make your own framework a given. 00:52:23.665 --> 00:52:36.805 To return to ex cordia ecclesia, on John Paul the second drawing on Titus the sixth provided a rough map for Catholics to follow as they travel this space between Athens and Jerusalem. 00:52:38.100 --> 00:52:47.400 Through its universities, he said, the church explores the mysteries of humanity in the world, clarifying them in the light of revelation. 00:52:48.820 --> 00:52:50.520 Athens can benefit Jerusalem. 00:52:51.615 --> 00:52:57.235 And sometimes, as with Augustine, it can even prepare the way for Jerusalem. 00:52:58.335 --> 00:53:02.915 But Athens is only seen in its fullness in the light of Jerusalem. 00:53:04.390 --> 00:53:16.250 While I follow a reformed evangelical approach to integration, I also see value in other approaches, including the one expressed in your own Catholic Christian meta model. 00:53:16.755 --> 00:53:21.735 I have an appreciation for what I have come to call tradition saturated integration. 00:53:22.595 --> 00:53:35.770 I have learned much from Christians who come from Roman Catholic, reformed, Mennonite, Pentecostal, Wesleyan, Quaker, Presbyterian, and other traditions. 00:53:37.190 --> 00:53:43.130 Walter Storff issues a challenge that is quite appropriate to our concerns as we draw this lecture to a close. 00:53:45.195 --> 00:54:01.110 The question which you and I as Christian scholars and intellectuals can never be finished with pondering is how to speak and act with Christian integrity within the practice of our common humanity, which is scholarship and learning. 00:54:02.050 --> 00:54:07.590 We do not or should not go off into our own order to think. 00:54:08.450 --> 00:54:21.345 We participate in the common in the practice of our common humanity, but we are not under the illusion that it's possible to participate in that practice as generic human beings. 00:54:22.125 --> 00:54:26.945 Accordingly, we struggle to participate there with Christian integrity. 00:54:28.530 --> 00:54:46.845 I hope that this lecture has helped us to think about the enduring questions that confront us today when we Christians consider how to engage the discipline of psychology and how to be faithful practitioners, scholars, and researchers. 00:54:48.745 --> 00:54:52.125 We are engaging in new, very old questions. 00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:59.440 Tertullian reminds us that our deepest needs are found through the church and that rival world views are seductive. 00:55:00.540 --> 00:55:06.960 Clement reminds us that there is great freedom to explore the common grace which is distributed throughout the academy. 00:55:08.205 --> 00:55:17.505 In his words, the way of truth is one, but into it, as into a perennial river, streams flow from all sides. 00:55:18.605 --> 00:55:29.700 I would contend the truth flows not just from Jerusalem, but also from Athens, and not just from Athens, but also from Vienna and Leipzig and from many other streams. 00:55:30.560 --> 00:55:41.225 The task before us as scholars and practitioners of psychology who are committed Christians is to continue pondering our own version of Tertullian's question. 00:55:42.165 --> 00:55:46.105 What do Vienna and Leipzig have to do with Jerusalem? 00:55:47.205 --> 00:55:56.180 It is our task to speak and act with Christian integrity in the marketplace of ideas and in the sanctity of the therapist's office. 00:55:58.160 --> 00:56:04.580 May God grant us the humility to combat the pride that is often the besetting state of academia. 00:56:05.895 --> 00:56:10.955 May he develop within us those virtues that allow us to dialogue with each other charitably. 00:56:11.735 --> 00:56:28.730 And may he grant us grace to approach this task wisely in order that by doing so, we can better love God with all of our hearts, souls, mind, and strength, and that we may better love our neighbors as ourselves. 00:56:29.350 --> 00:56:30.490 Thank you so much. 00:56:30.950 --> 00:56:33.705 Appreciate that, doctor Entwistle. 00:56:33.805 --> 00:56:39.145 And, delighted now to invite, doctor Paul Bitz. 00:56:39.845 --> 00:57:12.720 Many of you know, but a senior scholar here at DMU, and his teaching is research focused on the integration of Christian theology, especially class Catholic anthropology with psychology, and along with doctor Nordling, the tall one, and, doctor Craig, Stephen Titus, they have been the editors of the book that doctor Anne Twistle mentioned, a Catholic Christian Meta Model of the Person, integration of psychology and mental health practice. 00:57:13.580 --> 00:57:33.905 Doctor Nordling is one of the founding faculty members of EMU, licensed psychologist who's, has specialized credentials in child, marriage, and family therapy and teaches both basic and advanced coursework in these areas in the PsyD program and is also an active scholar. 00:57:34.685 --> 00:57:46.960 And, we're just delighted that both of you can be with us tonight to interact with doctor Entwistle's, presentation, and the floor belongs to the three of you now. 00:57:48.235 --> 00:57:51.535 Well, first, I'd like to say what a wonderful talk that was. 00:57:52.075 --> 00:58:09.410 What a wonderful, summary of Ted Whistle's understanding, which is extraordinarily scholar scholarly, fair, and really clearly thought out, covering the field in a way that I think is is quite remarkable. 00:58:10.110 --> 00:58:15.090 So you can all put yourself in one of those or in some group of those approaches. 00:58:15.390 --> 00:58:23.665 It got six to choose from and understand other people better by coming by seeing them as part of one of those. 00:58:25.005 --> 00:58:40.360 And it's a it's a it's actually a a tour de force that you saw here covering, psychology the modern psychology since, well, let's say 1879 and our friend, Bill Helm. 00:58:43.140 --> 00:58:52.225 So, I just like to say that to begin with because I found it really extraordinarily refreshing and, informative. 00:58:53.165 --> 00:58:53.985 Thank you. 00:58:54.605 --> 00:59:01.640 And I'd also like to say that I take it that you believe we're in the same camp out of the six camps. 00:59:01.640 --> 00:59:06.460 And I have to say that it's very consoling around the campfire. 00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.700 I had to have to look over and see that you're there. 00:59:11.745 --> 00:59:23.605 Although I do like the fact that I I would imagine you're gonna be across the fire because, one thing you've created the uncordonable since for an academic. 00:59:23.905 --> 00:59:33.340 One, no academic likes to encounter someone who, first of all, is brighter than them, writes better than them, and is nicer than them. 00:59:34.360 --> 00:59:36.380 Two of those are are tolerable. 00:59:36.440 --> 00:59:38.440 One of those is intolerable. 00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:43.545 But in your case, I I consider you or all three of those things. 00:59:43.605 --> 00:59:44.645 My wife is here. 00:59:44.645 --> 00:59:45.465 She may disagree. 00:59:50.725 --> 01:00:02.500 So Well, I'd like to just raise a few questions that were brought up by the questions we were supposed to, address and just mention them for all of us to hear. 01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:16.805 One of the important ones was, how are we going to keep the faith alive and clear in the continued development of integration? 01:00:18.145 --> 01:00:28.540 That is the history of Christian intellectual systems, whether they were universities or colleges or seminaries or what have you. 01:00:28.540 --> 01:00:42.385 The history, at least in the modern period, and perhaps at other times as well in history, but certainly in the modern world, The history has been the slow dilution of of the faith. 01:00:44.365 --> 01:00:51.985 And, I don't know how we can begin to address responding to that in advance. 01:00:52.980 --> 01:01:11.425 What can we might what what might be done to, slow or hopefully even to stop such a a a dilution, which seems somehow or other to always go with growth and success and so forth. 01:01:11.565 --> 01:01:15.345 So do what would you say we should do? 01:01:15.885 --> 01:01:16.605 Here look. 01:01:16.605 --> 01:01:18.065 We're here at DMU. 01:01:18.845 --> 01:01:20.225 We're in the early stages. 01:01:21.990 --> 01:01:24.250 We hope it works out and becomes successful. 01:01:24.870 --> 01:01:29.850 But, you know, success can be a a very mixed blessing in terms of the faith. 01:01:30.790 --> 01:01:45.865 So, David, you know, what do we do to if if if there are things to block this potential? 01:01:48.460 --> 01:01:53.100 I think one of the things we need to do is quite simply just keep our eye on the ball. 01:01:53.100 --> 01:01:53.580 You know? 01:01:53.580 --> 01:01:55.680 What is it that is our goal? 01:01:58.540 --> 01:02:08.725 As we talked about this, in a Zoom meeting before we got here, one of the things that we had talked about briefly was the original, what's it called? 01:02:08.725 --> 01:02:14.745 The Catholic Association of Psychologists, I think, which eventually became division thirty six. 01:02:15.680 --> 01:02:16.000 Right? 01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:16.320 Yeah. 01:02:16.720 --> 01:02:19.860 Psychologists interested in psychological issues. 01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:30.900 And you can sort of see this drift from we want to be intentional Catholics in the field to we wanna be acceptable to the field. 01:02:32.295 --> 01:02:37.275 And and that's a dangerous and very easy drift to make. 01:02:39.655 --> 01:02:45.930 Perhaps the scripture reading for today at mass, Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace. 01:02:46.790 --> 01:02:48.090 He came to bring division. 01:02:49.110 --> 01:02:57.370 And what we have to be recognizing from the beginning then is that division is intrinsic to being a Christian. 01:02:59.665 --> 01:03:07.605 Division without he said he's gonna put some father and son against each other, mother and daughter, daughter-in-law and and mother-in-law. 01:03:08.945 --> 01:03:13.525 He didn't come to bring everybody gonna be all on the same page. 01:03:15.080 --> 01:03:28.300 Now we have to deal with that as an issue, but we must recognize that division and with it even persecution is a spiritual grace or certainly can be. 01:03:30.405 --> 01:03:40.825 And once we've gotten rid of it all, we've probably diluted ourselves into the, into the non non Christian world. 01:03:43.150 --> 01:03:53.170 We have to keep and that means keeping Jesus at the center because I would say the highest form of ecumenicalism there are two kinds of ecumenicalism. 01:03:54.105 --> 01:03:57.805 One is to find the lowest common denominator you all have in common. 01:03:59.065 --> 01:04:00.425 And they tried that for a while. 01:04:00.425 --> 01:04:02.125 I don't think it worked very well. 01:04:02.905 --> 01:04:07.005 And the other is to find the highest common denominator that you all have in common. 01:04:08.130 --> 01:04:15.190 And that's that Jesus Christ is the answer to to our lives and to the source of our salvation. 01:04:16.130 --> 01:04:23.325 And I thought those first four principles that you gave in the first slide Wonderful. 01:04:25.545 --> 01:04:27.165 I don't know if that's mere Christianity. 01:04:27.465 --> 01:04:28.365 I'm not sure. 01:04:28.505 --> 01:04:31.305 But I I found myself hey. 01:04:31.305 --> 01:04:32.285 I'm an evangelical. 01:04:36.025 --> 01:04:43.290 Of course, I believe other things too, but I think that but those things but there there's the core that we have to keep in mind. 01:04:44.790 --> 01:04:51.130 We have to keep in mind if we're gonna keep the faith in our intellectual life and year of dealing with. 01:04:52.445 --> 01:04:52.685 Yeah. 01:04:52.685 --> 01:04:54.845 I had a a couple of things to that. 01:04:54.845 --> 01:05:25.185 And I know it's it's a big concern that when we enter into dialogue with, you know, secular the secular world, that there's a tendency to, not be grounded and to very quickly, find ourselves, giving up principles that are that are not gonna allow us to be authentic and to really be faithful to what our real mission is. 01:05:25.185 --> 01:05:31.765 And so I I would identify three things that I think are, very just imperative. 01:05:31.905 --> 01:05:37.950 One is we can we can reduce things to look at them, but we can never bracket God. 01:05:38.510 --> 01:05:41.010 We can't bracket god away. 01:05:41.470 --> 01:05:53.325 And the second is that we have an image of the person, and it's most simple the most simple way of saying it is that Jesus is the is the model of a perfect human being. 01:05:53.645 --> 01:06:04.785 And so when we enter into dialogue, we can never give anything away that would somehow betray what the perfect human being would be. 01:06:05.165 --> 01:06:12.140 And I think the third is that, we've always got to be a full person in dialogue. 01:06:13.240 --> 01:06:24.505 Some of the kinds of ways that, you know, have been we've described our ways of doing psychotherapy is that we put ourselves in service to our clients, and that's true. 01:06:24.505 --> 01:06:29.065 But we put ourselves as a person in service of our clients. 01:06:29.065 --> 01:06:37.305 We don't become our client and then lend our wisdom, you know, simply as being a substitute for our client. 01:06:37.305 --> 01:06:42.320 And so I I think we've always got to engage as a full person. 01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:43.620 We have our own conscience. 01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:45.300 We have our own identity. 01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:51.280 And that's all that's what's part of being an interpersonal relationship, and we can't give that up. 01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:59.635 We can't be chameleons that leave our values completely to the side, and we can't leave our identities to the side. 01:06:59.775 --> 01:07:13.510 Now with that said, we also can't do things that are unduly influencing of our clients or somehow, essentially, expect our clients to become us either. 01:07:15.410 --> 01:07:20.950 And so, those are the things that I I think are, really important. 01:07:21.555 --> 01:07:37.255 Another thing I think is important in maintaining our, our identity is when we dialogue with other people, that we dialogue with them where there's at least some basic agreement at a worldview level. 01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:51.405 And sometimes within this kind of cancel culture, type, there's an attempt to to pull out the things we don't disagree and immediately discard us as Christians. 01:07:51.465 --> 01:07:57.465 And so I think we have to look for, commonalities, between us and others. 01:07:57.465 --> 01:08:08.030 For example, when we wanna discuss a case, perhaps we need to discuss a case of a couple that used to love each other and now they're distressed. 01:08:09.050 --> 01:08:10.830 And the children are suffering. 01:08:11.850 --> 01:08:13.550 What are we gonna do about that? 01:08:13.930 --> 01:08:27.305 And then we can have views that bring in, our Christian vision of the, you know, sanctity of marriage or the Christian vision of the faithfulness of marriage or the Christian vision of the unity within marriage. 01:08:27.605 --> 01:08:34.025 Some things that may not be part of of the world view of the person we're talking with. 01:08:34.130 --> 01:08:44.630 But what they will see is that we all come up with ways of trying to preserve that marriage, bring love back, and help that poor child that's somehow caught in the middle. 01:08:44.850 --> 01:09:05.670 And so I think we've got to also pick the way the kinds of ways that we dialogue because if we begin with things that where immediately it triggers, triggers intense, reactions, I don't I don't think that that's the wisest way of of going with things. 01:09:08.130 --> 01:09:09.650 If I can add one more thing. 01:09:10.050 --> 01:09:27.530 In my class on integration, towards the beginning of the semester, I have my students read, Alan Bergen's 1980 article on, I can't remember the name of it, second, Religion and psychotherapy. 01:09:27.990 --> 01:09:29.430 What is some Yeah. 01:09:29.430 --> 01:09:30.390 Something I get. 01:09:30.390 --> 01:09:32.810 Some variation on Yeah. 01:09:32.950 --> 01:09:40.845 Basically, what he does is compare and contrast clinical and humanistic values to Christian values Yes. 01:09:41.165 --> 01:09:42.385 Or religious values. 01:09:43.005 --> 01:09:48.145 And this is a pioneering article because somebody said, hey. 01:09:48.285 --> 01:09:51.585 Religious values are being excluded in the field. 01:09:51.885 --> 01:09:56.860 And then I asked my students, why was Alan Bergen the one to write that article? 01:09:57.720 --> 01:09:59.160 And there's really two reasons. 01:09:59.160 --> 01:10:05.580 Number one, he had credibility in the field because he was a big name who had done big research. 01:10:05.960 --> 01:10:08.140 So they were gonna listen because he had credibility. 01:10:08.915 --> 01:10:12.675 But there was a second reason, and my students don't get this at first. 01:10:12.675 --> 01:10:16.615 And I say, look at the little fine notes in the article. 01:10:17.155 --> 01:10:18.535 Where was he a professor? 01:10:18.755 --> 01:10:20.215 And they go, Brigham Young. 01:10:20.355 --> 01:10:20.835 You know? 01:10:20.835 --> 01:10:22.695 Well, what's that got to do with anything? 01:10:23.620 --> 01:10:30.600 If you are used to being a persecuted minority religious group, you've got each other's back. 01:10:31.060 --> 01:10:34.920 You're used to getting face the your the door slammed in your face. 01:10:35.860 --> 01:10:39.320 If we're going to survive, we have to have each other's back. 01:10:39.515 --> 01:10:39.915 Yes. 01:10:39.915 --> 01:10:44.015 We need to encourage each other in what we're doing. 01:10:44.555 --> 01:10:48.095 And I think Bergen's a great model for us in that. 01:10:48.555 --> 01:10:50.575 I I knew him in graduate school. 01:10:50.715 --> 01:10:51.215 Really? 01:10:51.275 --> 01:10:51.775 Yes. 01:10:52.155 --> 01:10:53.430 It was a year ahead of me. 01:10:53.990 --> 01:10:56.170 And I also knew he was born Mhmm. 01:10:56.550 --> 01:10:59.850 Which is just as interesting to me, and I was at that time an atheist. 01:11:00.950 --> 01:11:04.090 So, you know, I didn't get palsy. 01:11:13.245 --> 01:11:27.370 So, doctor Bitz, I think, one thing that we've had conversations about it and is where what are the kinda next steps in integration? 01:11:27.830 --> 01:11:29.270 Now it's what are the next steps? 01:11:29.270 --> 01:11:36.070 We've we've got theoretical models, and we're developing those, but, you know, there's always more. 01:11:36.070 --> 01:11:39.085 So what what do you see is kinda Okay. 01:11:39.085 --> 01:11:50.785 I see three basic real opportunities that is way ways to find out something new that'll be both helpful and, you know, help you professionally. 01:11:53.550 --> 01:12:00.610 One is to look at aspects of our model that weren't addressed, but that are important. 01:12:02.590 --> 01:12:04.130 And here are two of them. 01:12:04.835 --> 01:12:10.615 First of all, I don't think we dealt with the unconscious adequately or with enough specificity. 01:12:11.795 --> 01:12:21.780 So what is needed is some way to, talk about what is the meaning of the unconscious within our understanding of the person. 01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:27.460 It's not naturally found in in, most Christian writing. 01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:43.145 Although, as I mentioned to somebody once, the Saint Paul did for he was the first unconscious psychologist when he said, why is it I I I don't do what I want to do, and I do do what I don't wanna do? 01:12:45.685 --> 01:12:48.745 He was sort of getting at it right there. 01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:52.540 So I think one area is to explore the unconscious. 01:12:53.400 --> 01:13:08.635 And this will have a lot to do with, not just, neo psychoanalytic approaches, but it'll probably connect up with some of the work on on on brain psychology, as well. 01:13:09.495 --> 01:13:16.780 But the whole meaning of the unconscious mind and its implications for our understanding of the person within a Christian framework. 01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:24.300 Even it it would even within a philosophical framework, it hasn't really been a handle, I don't think. 01:13:24.360 --> 01:13:32.255 But in any case, we would do it from a Christian and philosophical and a psychological point of view and bring it in, but that hasn't been addressed. 01:13:34.235 --> 01:13:46.120 The second, area that needs to be be addressed is the connection of the person within we're talking about the model of the person. 01:13:46.740 --> 01:13:55.320 And how does how is the person connected to, if you will, the spiritual life in a negative sense? 01:13:55.460 --> 01:14:03.105 That is, how do we connect, to the demons who run around the world seeking the ruin of souls? 01:14:05.805 --> 01:14:08.865 That's a very important issue. 01:14:10.450 --> 01:14:15.030 I'm not talking about, you know, full possession or something like that, which is, of course, quite rare. 01:14:15.650 --> 01:14:24.870 But it's quite likely that many psychological problems have a spiritual problem with them that they have a it's a kind of comorbidity. 01:14:26.295 --> 01:14:26.795 Comorbid. 01:14:27.415 --> 01:14:32.315 You know, you they had the problem with obsessiveness, but they also have some other spiritual issue there. 01:14:33.255 --> 01:14:37.255 Like, that may show up in, you know, they walk around. 01:14:37.255 --> 01:14:43.050 They go to confession, and they walk around the block, and they come back, and they have to confess again because they think they've sinned. 01:14:43.590 --> 01:14:44.650 I I don't know. 01:14:44.790 --> 01:14:54.570 This is I I have no expertise here, but the negative spiritual life ranging from, you know, the lower levels, which I think are relatively calm. 01:14:55.625 --> 01:15:05.085 Somebody might say that all serious psychopathology has with it some low level spiritual upset spiritual pathology as well. 01:15:05.545 --> 01:15:06.605 That may be extreme. 01:15:07.225 --> 01:15:16.320 But we need to understand that and probably find ways to, if possible, measure for it. 01:15:16.320 --> 01:15:25.105 That is to find out what kinds of responses tend to show up in persons who are obsessed. 01:15:25.885 --> 01:15:38.360 Not possessed, but obsessed in some way or in other ways or have involved their psychological issues with, with, essentially, demonic issues. 01:15:38.980 --> 01:15:45.400 And that's come the importance for that is not just because it's always been around, and Jesus talks about it a lot. 01:15:47.060 --> 01:15:55.415 There are reasons to think the at the at the spiritual negative spiritual attributes are suddenly becoming more common. 01:15:56.915 --> 01:16:10.810 And we're finding, you know, the satanic church says that abortion is one of their their spiritual rituals, and to be opposed to abortion is to violate their freedom of religion. 01:16:13.030 --> 01:16:13.350 Okay. 01:16:13.350 --> 01:16:20.415 We got when when we reach that point in the society, things have grown that we need to have some way to address. 01:16:21.435 --> 01:16:24.555 I can't I can't help you much but to say, hey. 01:16:24.555 --> 01:16:25.455 Here's a problem. 01:16:26.475 --> 01:16:28.715 And some of you might feel called to it, Dennis. 01:16:28.715 --> 01:16:34.290 The relationship of the model of the person to this spirit negative spiritual realm. 01:16:37.230 --> 01:16:41.250 And then I have a third suggestion for something you can do. 01:16:42.645 --> 01:16:43.945 That'd be really very helpful. 01:16:44.005 --> 01:17:00.360 Also, we need case histories in which the characteristics of the model were integrated into the the therapeutic description so you could see how it made a difference. 01:17:01.300 --> 01:17:02.340 So you'd say, alright. 01:17:02.340 --> 01:17:06.580 So here's this person with their their particular marital problem. 01:17:06.580 --> 01:17:08.760 Here's this person with depression. 01:17:10.055 --> 01:17:13.915 Here's this person with anxiety, and so forth. 01:17:15.495 --> 01:17:22.875 What what could be brought in here that the model would imply should be brought in or might be relevant? 01:17:23.710 --> 01:17:29.950 And, of course, the good clinician is always an artist, not a scientist in this they're an artist. 01:17:29.950 --> 01:17:34.770 Their intuition tells them that this will work for this person in this situation. 01:17:36.670 --> 01:17:38.690 Artistic knowledge is also knowledge. 01:17:40.005 --> 01:17:41.705 Just isn't scientific knowledge. 01:17:42.245 --> 01:17:50.745 We have to be willing to admit that you can have an intuition that's based on clinical experience that's true. 01:17:52.310 --> 01:18:07.125 Another way of putting it very simply is before the invention of modern psychology, indeed, before the invention of modern science, there was a lot of true knowledge in the world before science existed. 01:18:08.465 --> 01:18:09.525 Keep that in mind. 01:18:10.305 --> 01:18:12.885 It isn't only science that can give us knowledge. 01:18:13.265 --> 01:18:24.200 But case histories that show examples of a good way in which, well, this should be that we ought to have them now, how forgiveness can be, introduced. 01:18:24.740 --> 01:18:58.850 But how maybe you might introduce the virtue of courage to deal with somebody's anxiety or the virtue of gratitude to deal with somebody's depression or how you might, address the understanding of their own sinfulness so that they suddenly realize that this other person, you know, isn't all bad either. 01:19:00.765 --> 01:19:01.665 I don't know. 01:19:02.045 --> 01:19:02.785 You know? 01:19:03.565 --> 01:19:05.565 There are a lot of different ways this might happen. 01:19:05.565 --> 01:19:09.985 Like, suddenly, you describe you you try to bring in the notion of the person's vocation. 01:19:12.460 --> 01:19:14.560 Many therapists don't ever bring that in. 01:19:14.860 --> 01:19:16.380 What is the person's vocation? 01:19:16.380 --> 01:19:21.520 And we have in the model three different kinds of vocation that everyone is called to. 01:19:22.300 --> 01:19:31.535 Your personal code vocation to for us as Christians, which is sanctity and, you know, redemption and spiritual life. 01:19:31.835 --> 01:19:37.935 But even in to the atheist, it's probably to some kind of flourishing, and you wanna bring that to their attention. 01:19:39.830 --> 01:19:42.250 And then there's the what is your calling in life? 01:19:43.190 --> 01:19:46.330 Typical as you call the married life or the single life. 01:19:47.030 --> 01:19:50.570 There's now some nice writing done on the single life as a vocation. 01:19:51.165 --> 01:19:52.945 I mean, the adult single life. 01:19:53.565 --> 01:19:57.025 We'll all be single various times in our lives. 01:19:57.565 --> 01:19:58.685 We were born single. 01:19:58.685 --> 01:20:00.145 We'll probably die single. 01:20:00.445 --> 01:20:06.900 Not necessarily, but your spouse can die, and then you're back to single again. 01:20:08.400 --> 01:20:16.580 But, anyway, so the vocation of state of marriage and then the your your vocation to your job or your professional contribution to society. 01:20:17.125 --> 01:20:33.300 And those are ignored, so you might find special ways, certain and maybe there are even certain mental pathologies where some of these are more relevant, just like courage might be more relevant for people with anxiety and gratitude for people who are suffering from depression. 01:20:35.680 --> 01:20:39.220 Maybe these vocations are there for people with identity problems. 01:20:39.280 --> 01:20:40.240 I I don't know. 01:20:40.240 --> 01:20:42.260 You're you're gonna be the clinicians. 01:20:42.765 --> 01:20:49.665 You're gonna be the artists who will who will be able to detect when some of these things are a fit. 01:20:52.045 --> 01:20:56.945 And, of course, you'll detect when they're not a fit by finding out it doesn't work a lot of times too. 01:20:57.325 --> 01:21:00.280 But that's how your experience grows. 01:21:01.140 --> 01:21:08.980 Eventually, you've you you learn x, y, and z don't work, so I'll try a and b or something like that. 01:21:08.980 --> 01:21:31.240 But, anyway, those are the three things that I think offhand, we have a big opportunities to to develop new aspects of the model that have been ignored, applications of of clinical case histories, and the whole area of of this of the negative spiritual life. 01:21:34.740 --> 01:21:35.800 Doctor Wessel? 01:21:39.305 --> 01:21:49.785 If you look at the psychology Christianity integration literature over the last thirty to forty years, we've done a lot with sort of models of how to do this. 01:21:49.785 --> 01:21:59.450 We've done a lot with, you know, specific clinical issues and in recent years, more on specific, religious interventions. 01:22:00.630 --> 01:22:05.765 What we haven't done a whole lot of is the rest of psychology. 01:22:05.825 --> 01:22:07.205 We've done a lot with Vienna. 01:22:07.665 --> 01:22:10.485 We haven't done a whole lot with This is Leipzig. 01:22:11.505 --> 01:22:16.485 And if you look at every any intro to psych textbook, Vienna's two chapters. 01:22:17.670 --> 01:22:19.370 Leipzig is 11. 01:22:19.710 --> 01:22:28.810 So, you know, industrial and organizational psychology, neuropsychology, developmental psychology, there is so much more. 01:22:29.430 --> 01:22:37.935 And I think because, you know, clinical issues bring us face to face with lots of existential and religious issues, it's kind of a natural fit. 01:22:38.555 --> 01:22:42.495 And there's, of course, a lot more clinical psychologists than other things. 01:22:42.780 --> 01:22:47.360 But there's a whole lot of the rest of the field that we've just barely scratched. 01:22:50.460 --> 01:22:51.520 Reaction time. 01:22:54.940 --> 01:22:55.420 Yeah. 01:22:55.420 --> 01:22:56.300 So so Yeah. 01:22:56.300 --> 01:23:07.895 You've you've you've talked about the, you you know, the fact that the the basic sciences have been kind of ignored in the sense that there's a whole new way to look at social psychology. 01:23:08.355 --> 01:23:08.755 You know? 01:23:08.755 --> 01:23:27.070 One one of the, chapters in the book looks at the bystander, And it's a very individualistic perspective, and it doesn't look at an interpersonal reason a personal explanation for the bystander or even a communal one in the way that that a Christian would look at it. 01:23:27.070 --> 01:23:31.475 And so like, that's, you know, intriguing areas, for development. 01:23:32.575 --> 01:23:50.360 Quickly, I would say from my perspective, one of the challenges that we have with, a Christian view of the person is although it's very rich, it's often hard to take a view of the person and then put it into actual clinical practice. 01:23:50.360 --> 01:24:14.100 And the two areas that I think allow people to, in a concrete way, understand what the meta model is is or any meta model, any broader vision of the person, is the development, I think, of an intake interview that almost holds our hand so that we make sure we ask about the right things. 01:24:14.560 --> 01:24:23.955 Because I I I know from experiences that, often what happens is people read a book like yours or ours. 01:24:24.495 --> 01:24:30.255 And when they go to try to apply it, they kind of do what they've always done. 01:24:30.255 --> 01:24:38.910 They either use a DSM five structured interview or they do, they use some type of a therapeutic model as a way. 01:24:38.910 --> 01:24:46.290 In other words, if I'm doing cognitive therapy, I'm gonna ask about antecedent events and your reactions and what were the intervening thoughts. 01:24:46.350 --> 01:24:47.570 But that's very reductionistic. 01:24:48.030 --> 01:24:52.210 And so, my sense is we need to get the big picture. 01:24:52.350 --> 01:24:55.005 What is this person's virtue strengths? 01:24:55.005 --> 01:24:57.345 What is this first person's beliefs? 01:24:57.965 --> 01:24:59.245 Strongly held beliefs. 01:24:59.245 --> 01:25:02.845 What is what are what are their relationships like? 01:25:02.845 --> 01:25:06.045 We need to get all of that before we intervene. 01:25:06.045 --> 01:25:19.060 And I don't think that either the interview or a therapeutic model alone, that will guide to capture what we've always seen in a Christian perspective or what is the fullness of the person. 01:25:19.060 --> 01:25:28.615 So I think, we need to develop, more of a structured interview that make sure that we get the big picture before we actually start with our work. 01:25:29.155 --> 01:25:42.700 And the second the second area, I think, that kinda guides clinicians in their daily work are really, books on how to apply ethics and applied ethical reason. 01:25:43.400 --> 01:26:02.135 And, we have ethical principles, but at least certainly within the Catholic world, we we currently don't have books that take case histories and say, what how does a based on our vision of the person, how does a Catholic Christian or Christian in general look at this area? 01:26:02.355 --> 01:26:06.700 Because if our really, what what it what are codes of that? 01:26:06.700 --> 01:26:15.580 They they tell us they imply that we owe something to the client, and they imply that there's a reason for that. 01:26:15.580 --> 01:26:20.685 Well, the reason, within secular perspective is very different. 01:26:20.685 --> 01:26:30.605 You know, the reason we owe our clients, you know, a great deal as as Christians is because they're made in image and likeness of God. 01:26:30.605 --> 01:26:34.610 They're made uniquely by God with a specific purpose. 01:26:35.310 --> 01:26:37.010 But that's a different motivation. 01:26:37.230 --> 01:26:43.730 That's a different reason for why we are doing our work, and yet our ethics codes are great. 01:26:43.790 --> 01:26:51.275 I mean, they're they help us to not do the wrong things, and they give us some guidance about the right things. 01:26:51.275 --> 01:26:54.475 But a Christian ethos, I think, is a higher standard. 01:26:54.475 --> 01:27:01.590 We need to have, Christian books that that look at ethical cases and apply them. 01:27:01.750 --> 01:27:01.830 Them. 01:27:01.830 --> 01:27:03.530 I think that would be very valuable. 01:27:07.030 --> 01:27:08.890 Thank you very much, panel. 01:27:13.750 --> 01:27:15.450 I'm clapping for the other two. 01:27:17.525 --> 01:27:24.505 Thank you again, doctor Entwistle, for your informative and insightful, lecture for us. 01:27:24.805 --> 01:27:39.330 I wanna let you all know that we do have refreshments in the, if you go out to the left and then go straight back, there's refreshments, time to meet the presenter and our discussion, panel. 01:27:40.110 --> 01:27:43.570 Again, thank you so much for coming and being with us tonight.