WEBVTT 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:10.980 Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast. 00:00:11.120 --> 00:00:12.420 My name is Thomas Kronquist. 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:17.415 I'm the guest host with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University. 00:00:17.415 --> 00:00:18.955 Father Charles, how are you today? 00:00:19.175 --> 00:00:20.555 I'm doing fine, Tom. 00:00:20.615 --> 00:00:21.495 Ready to go. 00:00:21.495 --> 00:00:30.215 Well, Father, we have another, podcast with doctor Benjamin Keyes, a professor here and the director for the Center for Trauma and Resiliency Studies. 00:00:30.215 --> 00:00:34.570 We've spoken in the past with him about PTSD and human trafficking. 00:00:34.950 --> 00:00:41.210 Today, we're gonna talk about the HEART model, and I'm gonna let, doctor Keyes explain what that is and why it is so important. 00:00:41.510 --> 00:00:43.130 Welcome again, doctor Keyes. 00:00:43.430 --> 00:00:44.230 Well, thank you, Tom. 00:00:44.230 --> 00:00:45.850 Thanks for having me this morning. 00:00:48.025 --> 00:00:53.325 Heart model, healing emotional affective responses to trauma. 00:00:55.225 --> 00:01:01.830 Dealing with both both sides of, how our brain works. 00:01:02.550 --> 00:01:20.685 Both the affective side, the feelings, the emotional side, but also dealing with the, issues connection connected to the distortions in our thinking around ourselves and, spiritually. 00:01:21.465 --> 00:01:27.565 What kinds of distortion spiritually do we hold on to that may also be in our way for healing? 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:31.680 How do you use the HEART model in psychology and counseling? 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:36.740 What what type of patients, would you use it, would you use it for? 00:01:37.360 --> 00:01:44.045 The model was originally designed around working with survivors of human trafficking. 00:01:46.185 --> 00:02:13.495 In other words, very complex trauma that would work with people that have experienced very severe sexual trauma in childhood, that would work with people that have experienced, a compartmentalization of their thought process, also known as dissociative identity disorder, formerly multiple personality disorder. 00:02:16.115 --> 00:02:25.730 It works with, people that are experiencing, borderline personality disorder, post traumatic stress disorder. 00:02:26.670 --> 00:02:44.425 Those kinds of mental health issues that are sort of at the the the far spectrum of, the trauma scale, this dealing with folks that have, dealt with severe trauma. 00:02:44.485 --> 00:03:05.410 So whether that is a, a a real severe car accident, not a long term recovery period, or dealing with somebody that's been, say, in a domestic violence relationship for a long time that is now very physical and, harmful, and they've had to get out because of safety issues. 00:03:07.145 --> 00:03:17.245 Dealing with somebody that has experienced early childhood sexual trauma or rape or, ongoing sexual abuse. 00:03:17.705 --> 00:03:22.060 So you use the HEART model, with PTSD symptoms? 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.260 What about things like depression and anxiety? 00:03:25.880 --> 00:03:45.955 To a lesser degree, when when it involves the interaction somehow of, how I see myself and what I think about myself as I was growing up and and who I am now. 00:03:47.375 --> 00:03:51.395 It deals with the inner conflict within ourselves. 00:03:53.550 --> 00:04:03.250 The idea is that as I, the the the the model is designed to work on a secular level and also on a spiritual level. 00:04:03.885 --> 00:04:15.900 So on a secular level, what I what I'm looking at dealing with is the internal conflict often between myself and who I was as a child growing up. 00:04:16.700 --> 00:04:30.665 And when there's dissonance there, in other words, when there's conflict there such as the conflict that gets, brought up a lot when somebody has been sexually traumatized at an early age. 00:04:31.285 --> 00:04:45.260 And the person will often blame themselves at that age or not like who they were at that time, and they've spent a lot of time trying to change things both within themselves and how they perceive themselves. 00:04:47.240 --> 00:05:03.875 As they're still working with that, this this is a model that will work to basically end that struggle and, really, resolve the the internal issues about about myself. 00:05:04.895 --> 00:05:18.510 And so as I bring those two parts of myself together into what we would call congruence, in other words, there's no more conflict, I begin to have a different way of looking at life and looking at myself. 00:05:19.530 --> 00:05:29.865 But from a spiritual standpoint, if I put a spiritual overlay to that, it's also resolving the internal conflict and struggle that I may have had with god. 00:05:30.965 --> 00:05:55.115 And, and and bringing that into resolution as well so that the way I look at life and the way I look at myself completely changes, in a sense of of healing, in a sense of, living in a much much stronger, much more spiritually centered way. 00:05:56.615 --> 00:06:04.215 One of the things that's intriguing about the anachronym heart is obviously the symbolism behind that. 00:06:04.215 --> 00:06:04.615 Right? 00:06:04.615 --> 00:06:15.120 The heart signifying love, which is so fundamental to everyone's life and both our relationship with each other, our relationship with God. 00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:20.605 And so much when you talk about trauma, we could say it's almost like the anti love. 00:06:20.605 --> 00:06:20.765 Right? 00:06:20.765 --> 00:06:26.545 It's not just an absence of love, but it's something very maybe aggressively going the other way. 00:06:26.845 --> 00:06:32.525 Is there a story behind that as the anacronym for this treatment? 00:06:32.525 --> 00:06:39.160 Because I know you mentioned, you know, reconciling one with their spiritual relationship with God. 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:42.420 Is there a relationship there? 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:47.060 And and and could you tell us a little bit about how that symbolism came about? 00:06:47.060 --> 00:06:47.380 Yeah. 00:06:47.380 --> 00:06:47.880 Absolutely. 00:06:49.705 --> 00:06:58.285 In Jewish tradition, the heart is the one place that mind, body, and spirit come together as one in one place. 00:07:01.290 --> 00:07:18.685 And that was really the essence because this started out talking about mind, body, spirit as a spiritual conflict, spiritual concept, except that it really wasn't a spiritual concept. 00:07:18.825 --> 00:07:19.885 It was Greek. 00:07:20.345 --> 00:07:30.080 And, not only not only was it Greek, but it was reinforced by Descartes in the fifteenth century and, excuse me, sixteenth century. 00:07:30.140 --> 00:07:37.120 And, it saved his life during the Spanish Spanish inquisition. 00:07:37.900 --> 00:07:48.445 And what and what he what he said was that that for science scientific purposes, mind and body can be studied, but the spiritual part belongs to the church. 00:07:49.545 --> 00:07:53.645 And like I said, that's what that's really what save saved his life at the time. 00:07:55.980 --> 00:07:59.180 But I'm not so sure that that's true. 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:11.175 I mean, the idea was that that mind and body had some substance and spirituality was this thing in the ether that, that really can't be looked at from scientific standpoint. 00:08:13.715 --> 00:08:23.575 Well, I'm not so sure of that because I think I think the spiritual part might really be the core, right, might really be the center of this. 00:08:24.200 --> 00:08:55.450 And it certainly has been from what I've seen in in using the model and teaching the model is that when people really get the essence of, resolving the internal conflict with that, And they're introduced to a very real, very alive god, that transcends transcends, doctrine and polity and denominationalism. 00:08:58.310 --> 00:09:08.835 They get to, begin to form a relationship that's in real time and in real, real essence. 00:09:10.335 --> 00:09:11.615 And it it's interesting. 00:09:11.615 --> 00:09:15.635 It's actually a Benedictine practice that's been around for two thousand years. 00:09:17.710 --> 00:09:28.750 It's it's it's paying attention to the voice of God and being able to hear it and and learn that. 00:09:28.750 --> 00:09:30.750 But I I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. 00:09:30.750 --> 00:09:53.570 Let me let me start by saying that at its core, the the model or the essence of the model is finding a way to forgive yourself for whatever transgression that you think that you have, involved yourself in or caused or, was part of. 00:09:53.630 --> 00:10:00.850 And as a survivor of sexual trauma in particular, that was done to you. 00:10:01.155 --> 00:10:05.895 So there's nothing to somebody will say, well, there's nothing to forgive. 00:10:06.835 --> 00:10:32.080 Well, often, what needs to be forgiven internally is that you were little, that you were powerless, that you were not able to fend off the attack or fend off the sexual advances, or or on on on a reverse side that as a child looking for attention, wanting attention, that that you allowed this to happen. 00:10:32.205 --> 00:10:33.965 Well, you didn't allow this to happen. 00:10:33.965 --> 00:10:36.765 You were groomed to let it happen Mhmm. 00:10:37.005 --> 00:10:39.665 And coerced to let it happen. 00:10:40.285 --> 00:10:48.400 And so it's finding a way of of coming to a place where you you let yourself off the hook. 00:10:48.400 --> 00:10:53.780 You you resolve that internal conflict. 00:10:55.120 --> 00:11:09.455 How do people who have been, experienced trauma because of someone someone else's willful actions, how do they find how can they how can you help them forgive the person who's hurt them? 00:11:09.455 --> 00:11:14.230 That seems like that'd be a very important part of the the counseling process. 00:11:14.290 --> 00:11:16.390 Can you maybe speak a little bit about that? 00:11:16.690 --> 00:11:17.090 Yeah. 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:18.230 Actually, it's not. 00:11:19.890 --> 00:11:41.385 The one of the writers that that I sometimes quote is a is, not a Christian writer, but but, she writes basically that the only forgiveness necessary here is that you forgive yourself for healing for healing purposes. 00:11:43.260 --> 00:12:00.465 My belief about the, forgiveness of the perpetrator is that it occurs as a natural phenomena of good therapy because it's it's correcting some of the ways that we look at forgiveness. 00:12:00.525 --> 00:12:03.905 For instance, forgiveness is not forgive and forget. 00:12:04.285 --> 00:12:06.385 How do you forget something like this? 00:12:07.085 --> 00:12:10.260 Trauma that was done unto you, how do you forget that? 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.560 It's not reestablishing the relationship. 00:12:14.020 --> 00:12:32.085 I mean, sometimes sometimes your perpetrator was some of the most horrible people in the world, or they were wonderfully, connected loved ones that just lost the the the barrier between what was right and wrong. 00:12:35.665 --> 00:12:52.940 But I either way, it's it's it's forgiveness of yourself and that by forgiving yourself and letting yourself off the hook, you eventually get to a place where, I I don't need this person anymore. 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:57.575 I don't I don't need to stay attached to the perpetrator. 00:12:57.795 --> 00:13:01.095 I don't need to excuse him anymore or her. 00:13:02.035 --> 00:13:15.750 I don't need to, hold on to getting any kind of re repayment of of, an apology and acknowledgment, a, a jail sentence. 00:13:16.850 --> 00:13:19.830 It's letting go of the attachment to the repayment. 00:13:20.130 --> 00:13:30.855 And I base it I base this on the scripture that talks about the king that, forgave the man all all that talent all those talents of money. 00:13:32.595 --> 00:13:36.135 Do you think the king ever did business with this guy again? 00:13:37.395 --> 00:13:37.875 No. 00:13:37.875 --> 00:13:43.095 So it's not it's not, it's it's not reestablishing the relationship. 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:49.100 Do you think he ever forgot that he forgave all those talents of money? 00:13:49.640 --> 00:13:50.140 No. 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.180 So it's not forgive and forget. 00:13:54.920 --> 00:13:57.420 What he gave up was the repayment. 00:13:58.715 --> 00:14:05.535 In other words, some type of payment for, what what he was owed. 00:14:07.195 --> 00:14:09.535 And it's the same concept here. 00:14:09.755 --> 00:14:13.470 It's giving up the repayment so that I can move on. 00:14:13.470 --> 00:14:34.895 Because if I stay attached to, if I stay attached to making sure that he comes to justice or she comes to justice, if I stay attached to, I want him to apologize to me, I want them to forgive me, I want them to whatever it is, then they're still connected to their trauma. 00:14:36.715 --> 00:14:44.410 And so what I've gotta do with with the client is work with them to let go of that of any attachment to that. 00:14:45.350 --> 00:14:48.010 Now sometimes that happens and sometimes that doesn't. 00:14:48.550 --> 00:14:51.530 But the goal here is not forgiveness of the perpetrator. 00:14:52.845 --> 00:14:54.305 It's letting go of the repayment. 00:14:56.285 --> 00:14:59.745 And so letting go of the repayment is forgiveness. 00:15:01.645 --> 00:15:02.685 That's an interesting way. 00:15:02.685 --> 00:15:05.645 I I enjoy I I think that's a good way what a good way to explain it. 00:15:05.645 --> 00:15:05.965 Right? 00:15:05.965 --> 00:15:11.540 We don't wanna let the person who's hurt us in some way still maintain control over us. 00:15:11.540 --> 00:15:11.780 Right? 00:15:11.780 --> 00:15:16.840 And that's forgiveness is is is it is getting rid of that attachment. 00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:25.155 Actually, the value in the other person apologizing or making reparation is really for their benefit. 00:15:25.155 --> 00:15:32.775 That helps them deal with the grave injustice or sin or whatever it was that they they call that they perpetrated. 00:15:33.395 --> 00:15:35.155 And I think we we become too attached. 00:15:35.155 --> 00:15:36.995 And, okay, when you got you feel like, okay. 00:15:36.995 --> 00:15:37.975 I got an apology. 00:15:38.275 --> 00:15:43.460 It It makes me feel like that other person well, for good for him that he actually realized he did something wrong. 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.300 But that doesn't necessarily heal my wound. 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:48.820 Correct. 00:15:48.960 --> 00:16:02.335 And I I actually cringe because I I've I've talked to some of the major researchers in the area of of forgiveness, theory, and and, I I just disagree with them. 00:16:02.335 --> 00:16:06.290 They they their focus is on purposely forgiving the perpetrator. 00:16:06.750 --> 00:16:21.135 That may never happen in situations like sexual trauma or trafficking or any any type of deep deep perpetration. 00:16:22.555 --> 00:16:29.135 But letting go because I'm still trapped by the perpetrator, that makes sense. 00:16:29.995 --> 00:16:32.895 Even even even to the client, that makes sense. 00:16:35.350 --> 00:16:37.430 So that they're able to move on. 00:16:37.430 --> 00:16:54.465 And like I said, but by doing good therapy of working with the client to to allow them to be able to move on is just good therapeutic work and happens as a natural course of doing the therapy. 00:16:55.165 --> 00:17:01.645 Do you teach the, the heart model here and and and forgiveness therapy, as you've described it? 00:17:01.645 --> 00:17:05.585 Is that something that's part of your, your training here? 00:17:05.930 --> 00:17:17.710 We do a two day training on the HEART model because the HEART model first of all, it's designed to be an overlay to whatever model they've used or learned in counseling. 00:17:18.235 --> 00:17:39.690 So if they're taught psychodynamically, if they're taught CBT, cognitive behavioral, they're taught, humanistic gestalt, any model of therapy is fine in the, in working with the healing process. 00:17:40.390 --> 00:17:50.495 This is just simply an overlay to that model to address specific issues that will lead you into into places of of deeper healing. 00:17:52.475 --> 00:18:07.650 And with the spiritual part of it is is really an introduction well, first of all, in in the part of self, it's an introduction to healing internally between their adult of now and their child of then. 00:18:10.830 --> 00:18:24.755 In the process with god, it's it's healing whatever spiritual distortions I might have, ways of seeing God in ways that he really isn't or wasn't. 00:18:25.570 --> 00:18:34.050 I think with every survivor, the the the key question for most spiritually is why didn't you rescue me out of this? 00:18:34.050 --> 00:18:35.590 Why didn't you save me? 00:18:36.610 --> 00:18:49.775 Well, most most counselors will try to avoid that question, or just say, well, you know, that's between you and God or any other sort of weak sort of answer. 00:18:49.775 --> 00:18:55.850 That's the very question I want them to be able to answer as a result of this this particular model. 00:18:56.870 --> 00:19:03.530 And the only way to do that is to directly address God for that answer. 00:19:05.430 --> 00:19:12.575 And we use a technique that's used has been used by Benedictine monks for, like I said, almost two thousand years. 00:19:12.795 --> 00:19:14.735 And they call it practicing the presence. 00:19:15.595 --> 00:19:23.135 It's being in the presence of god and not doing anything but just being in god's presence. 00:19:25.670 --> 00:19:36.250 And it usually starts off with a two or three minute process of sort of being in god's presence and learning to just connect. 00:19:38.505 --> 00:19:41.785 And I start off with just a very, very basic concept. 00:19:41.785 --> 00:19:50.205 I say to them, as a Christian, do you believe the scripture that says when two or more are gathered in his name, god is present? 00:19:54.090 --> 00:19:55.390 Most will say yes. 00:19:58.170 --> 00:20:06.750 Then we agree that god is present right now with the two of us right here, or in this case, the three of us right here. 00:20:11.055 --> 00:20:12.595 How do you know god's here? 00:20:14.015 --> 00:20:23.590 What do you do if I if I asked you to connect to god right here, right in the moment, how would you go about to do that? 00:20:23.590 --> 00:20:28.550 Now some people will close their eyes. 00:20:28.550 --> 00:20:30.970 They get pictures, senses, feelings. 00:20:32.550 --> 00:20:40.645 Some people will, it it'll be more of book knowledge and an understanding that God is just present everywhere. 00:20:41.505 --> 00:20:43.845 It it comes up in a lot of different ways. 00:20:45.345 --> 00:20:50.805 And we also know that if they can't make that connection, then something's in the way. 00:20:53.260 --> 00:20:58.880 So let's say they can't make the connection, then we would begin to work on whatever's in the way of that. 00:21:00.780 --> 00:21:10.275 If they can make the connection, then I'll start asking about do you get a sense of how that feels towards you right now? 00:21:12.415 --> 00:21:21.795 And, obviously, if I know I get something that's negative, it's their stuff that's in the way because God doesn't give us negative things. 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:29.820 And if I get something positive, I know that they're they're connected. 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:31.900 So can can we move closer? 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.260 Can we connect to what's there? 00:21:36.675 --> 00:21:39.895 And it will often bring up all the various distortions. 00:21:40.115 --> 00:21:45.875 Well, you know, god's just waiting to get me, or god really doesn't, interact with us. 00:21:45.875 --> 00:21:53.550 He sits off on a a cloud somewhere, or any ways of seeing God that's not interactive. 00:21:55.690 --> 00:22:01.150 But what we're doing is interactive, so that dispels most of most of that. 00:22:04.485 --> 00:22:12.345 And just pointing out that god is present, and he's present here just like he was back when you were hurt. 00:22:14.085 --> 00:22:17.305 And that usually brings up the question, well, why didn't he do anything? 00:22:20.320 --> 00:22:24.260 And so I'll say, why don't you ask that question to god? 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:42.115 And then what often comes up in that is all the ways and all the things that they've done to you know, I can't come to god because I'm not good enough yet or I'm not, repentant enough yet or any kinds of things. 00:22:42.115 --> 00:22:44.535 But it's it's working with those discrepancies. 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:51.260 Again, because we know that god is real, god is alive, and we can interact with that. 00:22:53.800 --> 00:22:58.460 But sometimes we've gotta get quiet enough to be able to interact with that. 00:23:00.225 --> 00:23:03.125 Even in prayer, we do our all our prayer outwardly. 00:23:03.185 --> 00:23:10.645 We pray for all kinds of things, for people, for situations, for our government, for our families, for our church. 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:13.100 It's all outward. 00:23:14.600 --> 00:23:17.260 But to hear god's voice, that's all inward. 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.920 And we've gotta be quiet enough to be able to to to do that. 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:48.070 And quite honestly, for most survivors of sexual trauma, there there's quite a lot of energy spent to try to stay busy enough to not get to those feelings that hurt, to not get to those things that that, I've been running away from since the trauma because all of that has to be worked with. 00:23:48.070 --> 00:23:49.850 All of that has to be resolved. 00:23:50.710 --> 00:23:54.075 What are some of the, yeah, things that you've seen that work? 00:23:54.075 --> 00:24:04.255 And one of the challenges, I've seen in my priesthood with it's a similar just I think we're talking about a similar thing. 00:24:04.620 --> 00:24:13.420 Helping people understand how much god loves them and that they're cherished in his eyes and that, but then sort of just, well, no. 00:24:13.420 --> 00:24:16.220 As you were saying, you know, I'm I'm I'm not good enough. 00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:17.985 I'm I'm whatever. 00:24:17.985 --> 00:24:19.185 I'm not worthy of all this. 00:24:19.185 --> 00:24:25.585 The feeling feeling oneself worthy of god's love, still remaining humble at the same time. 00:24:25.585 --> 00:24:26.085 Right? 00:24:27.105 --> 00:24:31.345 I mean but so what what are some things that have helped people to do that? 00:24:31.345 --> 00:24:34.440 Because I, as you say, it's very easy for us to pray. 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:35.960 We can pray the our father. 00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:38.940 We can pray different petitions, and that's good. 00:24:39.320 --> 00:24:47.320 But that prayer that connects us more with him and say, it's okay just to be here and enjoy God's presence, his love. 00:24:47.320 --> 00:24:51.845 Like, we sometimes maybe I just call it, we hold the bar higher than god does sometimes. 00:24:52.385 --> 00:24:56.005 And that's this whole idea of forgiving yourself even if that's what it is. 00:24:56.225 --> 00:25:00.015 It's sort of like we put we have higher standards than god at times. 00:25:00.860 --> 00:25:01.420 And so I don't know. 00:25:01.420 --> 00:25:02.460 Maybe you give us some tips. 00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:08.320 Some of the things that have helped people realize that and and move forward. 00:25:08.540 --> 00:25:25.515 Well, in the way the model works is that once once we've dealt with the personal stuff, the internal stuff within ourselves, it opens ourselves up to receiving what god has for us. 00:25:25.515 --> 00:25:27.135 It's kinda like a birthday present. 00:25:27.370 --> 00:25:44.175 If I give you a birthday present, and you take it and you put it in the trunk of your car, I've given you the gift, but it is absolutely worthless to you until you take it out of the trunk, open the box, and take whatever is in there out of the box. 00:25:45.755 --> 00:25:47.115 It's the same way with God. 00:25:47.115 --> 00:25:54.175 God's given us the gift of forgiveness, of of grace, of love. 00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:58.560 But until we open the box, we can't use it. 00:26:00.540 --> 00:26:03.280 And the opening of the box starts with the self forgiveness. 00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:09.200 It opens us up to being able to receive from god. 00:26:10.955 --> 00:26:20.975 And that opens us up to resolving the, the ways we've twisted what we've wanted from god. 00:26:22.635 --> 00:26:27.760 You know, God is a God of presence, not not a God of rescue. 00:26:28.860 --> 00:26:30.800 He doesn't pull us out of things. 00:26:32.060 --> 00:26:34.000 He he doesn't intervene that way. 00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:43.535 Where he intervenes with us is at a deep level of presence and a deep love of, his love of being with us. 00:26:45.435 --> 00:26:56.320 And as I begin to understand that at a deeper at deeper levels, that begins to change my my, my view of god. 00:26:57.100 --> 00:27:05.200 My my view of god was, I mean, until I was, in my twenties, my view of god was really based on Charleston Heston. 00:27:06.065 --> 00:27:18.325 You know, those movies in the sixties of, you know, God, you know, throwing fire into the mountain and, the bush that was burning, and, I was scared of that God. 00:27:20.020 --> 00:27:38.475 But, David Siemens, in his book, Healing of the Memories, he writes, that until we see god as truly loving, caring, wanting the best for us, that there's that healing is never complete. 00:27:39.575 --> 00:27:40.875 And I think he's right. 00:27:41.975 --> 00:27:45.195 That that's the completion, of the healing. 00:27:45.735 --> 00:27:49.260 So it, like I said, the model works well secularly. 00:27:49.880 --> 00:28:08.035 But when you put the spiritual overlay to it and it deals with the those ways that we twist in our both our thought and in our our at our feeling level and gets that stuff untwisted, it has a profound effect on our healing. 00:28:08.655 --> 00:28:16.090 Seems like, all of us can, can, practice the presence of God. 00:28:16.090 --> 00:28:18.030 I remember reading a book years ago. 00:28:18.810 --> 00:28:23.310 It was called, I think it was called The Practice of the Presence of God. 00:28:23.610 --> 00:28:26.010 And if I remember correctly, it was by a brother Lawrence. 00:28:26.010 --> 00:28:28.110 Are you familiar with that, that book? 00:28:28.410 --> 00:28:29.025 I am. 00:28:29.425 --> 00:28:30.405 Very, very helpful. 00:28:31.105 --> 00:28:34.645 I don't know if you would recommend that to, to people to read. 00:28:34.945 --> 00:28:35.605 I would. 00:28:35.985 --> 00:28:39.765 There there's also one like it, not the last name is Barrington. 00:28:39.825 --> 00:28:41.525 I can't remember his first name. 00:28:43.590 --> 00:28:50.490 But he also writes, in the same way and, what I believe he was a Benedictine, priest. 00:28:51.110 --> 00:28:51.850 Very good. 00:28:51.910 --> 00:28:56.375 You you mentioned, we're we're coming up toward the end of the program. 00:28:56.375 --> 00:28:57.495 I wanted to ask a question. 00:28:57.495 --> 00:29:05.895 You mentioned that PTSD spectrum, and I'm wondering how many how many how many people are on the spectrum? 00:29:05.895 --> 00:29:07.495 Are we all on the spectrum somewhere? 00:29:07.495 --> 00:29:11.600 We've we've all, you know, had, childhood, dealt with bullies. 00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:13.280 We've all had all kinds of experiences. 00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:15.060 Are we all somewhere on that spectrum? 00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:21.375 From the standpoint of healing in ourselves internally, most of us are. 00:29:21.855 --> 00:29:24.675 From the standpoint of healing trauma, no. 00:29:24.735 --> 00:29:32.515 It's it's it's really about ten percent of the population that have experienced deep deep trauma on some level. 00:29:33.695 --> 00:29:36.415 But all of that, like I said, can be healed. 00:29:36.415 --> 00:29:45.920 And I think the heart model gives us, gives us the opportunity to not only do that, but to resolve both both sides of the equation. 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:52.340 It works with our feelings, and it works with our, what we call, cognitive distortions and spiritual distortions. 00:29:54.185 --> 00:29:54.925 Very good. 00:29:54.985 --> 00:29:58.205 This has been another very interesting informative, podcast. 00:29:58.265 --> 00:30:01.965 Father, I don't know if you have any final thoughts, so we're running out of time here, unfortunately. 00:30:03.065 --> 00:30:03.545 Well, no. 00:30:03.545 --> 00:30:04.665 I just thank doctor Keyes. 00:30:04.665 --> 00:30:09.850 You know, there's a tangled web of the spiritual, the cognitive, and the emotional. 00:30:09.990 --> 00:30:15.530 And it's such a he John Paul the second once said that every human person is a mystery. 00:30:16.230 --> 00:30:25.315 Well, you know, there's many common things where every human being has, but in the end, all of those other things may get so complex. 00:30:25.315 --> 00:30:28.055 And I think it just underlines couple things. 00:30:29.235 --> 00:30:31.635 The need for God's constant presence in our lives. 00:30:31.635 --> 00:30:31.875 Right? 00:30:31.875 --> 00:30:33.415 Emmanuel, God with us. 00:30:34.195 --> 00:30:38.690 And just also, the need for charity and patience with others. 00:30:38.690 --> 00:30:38.930 Right? 00:30:38.930 --> 00:30:52.325 We just don't know what someone else has been through in their life and and and how just just the goodness of of just being kind and charitable to others, the the good that that can do, in our lives. 00:30:52.625 --> 00:31:04.140 Well, I gotta tell you, my my work, my practice, I really owe to those clients that I have had that have allowed me into that space. 00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:20.095 I I often I often talk about that place as being hallowed ground, because we're we're invited into the very essence of their deepest pain, and the very essence of their soul. 00:31:20.095 --> 00:31:39.850 And, I think we have to treat it that way as clinicians, that we're we're being given a great honor, and we need to do this delicately and and work with it, as if it belongs to God, which it does. 00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:42.470 You know, and that's the true definition of psyche. 00:31:42.470 --> 00:31:44.730 I think back in the Greeks was the soul. 00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:45.510 Yep. 00:31:45.510 --> 00:31:46.970 Not too much just the mind. 00:31:47.030 --> 00:31:47.530 Yeah. 00:31:48.025 --> 00:31:51.465 Doctor Keith, thank you so much again for another wonderful podcast. 00:31:51.465 --> 00:31:53.465 We look forward to having you on. 00:31:53.465 --> 00:32:01.945 It seems like there are many more topics we could, we could we could deal with and, look forward to having you back to talk about some of them. 00:32:01.945 --> 00:32:07.590 So, again, from from from all of us, thank you, and, have a wonderful day. 00:32:07.970 --> 00:32:08.850 Well, thank you. 00:32:08.850 --> 00:32:13.510 And I I do wanna remind folks that, this is something that we do train here. 00:32:14.050 --> 00:32:22.845 And, to be involved in it, it just really is a matter of just, calling up and getting on the list for the workshop. 00:32:23.385 --> 00:32:25.885 So, join us. 00:32:27.065 --> 00:32:27.565 Wonderful. 00:32:27.625 --> 00:32:27.945 Great. 00:32:27.945 --> 00:32:28.765 Thank you.