Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast.
My name is Thomas Kronquist.
I'm your guest host with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father, how are you doing today?
I'm just fine, Tom.
How are you?
Very good.
Well, we have another interesting, program today.
We're gonna continue talking with doctor, Cathy Erwin of the MS Counseling program here at Divine Mercy University.
Today, we're gonna discuss multigenerational families.
Doctor Erwin, welcome to the show.
How are you doing today?
Very good.
Thank you.
Tell us about multigenerational families.
What does that mean?
Well, in many cultures around the world, that's just the way people have lived for generations.
But in America, we've gotten away from that over the years, where older adults live on their own or they live in communities.
When they get less capable of taking care of themselves, they they may go to an older adult community.
Whereas in years past, generations past, actually, everybody moved together.
Think for a minute about the old classic TV show, The Waltons.
You could still see it on o on on classic TV.
This was a family in, the mountains of West Virginia, I believe, during the depression.
And the grandparents lived with them, but they also helped in the household.
The children were there.
It was a multigenerational family that functioned generally quite well, and there was great respect shown to the older adults.
Well, we haven't done it that well recently.
And what we have happening and even more so since the pandemic is sometimes it's the younger adults with their young children or a single younger adult moving back in with mom and dad for economic reasons, loss of job, or it's bringing the older family members.
I have worked with families that have five generations under one roof, and so that changes the dynamic.
So when we look at what we call a diagram of the family, a genogram, what's at the top now of the multigenerational family is what I call the de facto mom and dad.
And that's often it was the baby boomer couple or person.
Now a lot of times, it's the Gen Xer.
And this is the one who functions as the parent to everybody, parent to her parents, to his parents, parent to the children, parent to the grandchildren.
And because we're Americans and we like our space and we want it our way, you know, the old Burger King commercial have it your way, we all want that.
When other generations move in, it definitely changes the family system sometimes for the better, too often not for the better.
And it's definitely a strain on the marriage of what I call the functional mom and dad.
Yet how common is this these days, and how how fast has this been accelerating?
You mentioned the pandemic and, other, causes for that.
Multigenerational family living has increased even pre pandemic and, a lot of times, economic reasons.
You you probably heard the term boomerang adult.
Well, that is a young adult who goes out sometimes after high school, after college, maybe has a failed relationship, maybe loses a good job.
There's economic reasons, and moves back in with mom and dad.
So we have the the child, who is no longer a child, by the way, moving back in, and it's an incredible change of dynamics, between the parents and the older adult or the younger adult, rather.
And then if the younger adult moves back in with children, while, of course, grandparents are thrilled to have the grandchildren there, but then comes the family conflict of who's parenting these kids?
Who's making the decisions?
Who's in charge?
And that creates a conflict between parent and adult child.
Oh, I usually hear about this.
I I started recognizing this a number of years ago when I would hear from the couple, who I call the de facto parents, who would be struggling in their own relationship because, you know, well, your older mother moved in with us, and now we don't have any time together.
Or the kids move back together, get back here, and all we do is take care of the kids.
It's interesting how that started to surface in my attention, and I started recognizing these needs of multigenerational families.
One thing it would require is a larger house.
Oftentimes, people are living in the house they can afford, and, maybe it's not a it's not a large house.
Multigenerational families would require more living space.
So that's just one economic consideration.
But, so do you see that the trend is moving more toward this now, our culture moving back toward this?
Is this a is this a is this a trend?
Would you call this a trend?
I watch this, in demog in demographic sites.
It it definitely is an economic issue.
And then, of course, the pandemic situation pushed that even further, but it was starting before that.
And, you know, it's very expensive for young people.
They start moving out, trying to get a home of their own.
There's really a lot of consumer debt.
There are people who move out and then have failed relationships, and they come back to back to the family home.
But when you have a young adult or even an older adult move into your home, what happens is nobody talks about it.
This is gonna be fine.
We're all gonna be good together, but we don't discuss things like space and privacy.
And, you know, the one of the world's great dilemmas, if you have three generations of women in the kitchen.
I don't know if it's the same for three generations of men out in the tool shed, but three generations of women in the kitchen it's always been an issue, at least in our culture.
So it's it's just when people move back together and nobody talks about how are we gonna do this?
Who has space?
Who has purpose?
Who has charge over things?
And they just think it's all gonna magically work.
And it doesn't just magically work.
It ends up straining relationships.
Yeah.
It sounds like this is something where you could have a lot of elephants in the room.
A lot of them.
They run into each other.
Yeah.
And, you know, you're thinking a family kinda, well, we don't wanna be you know?
How do you what, I mean, this can happen in any organization or group of people, you know, where there's this fear of bringing up something that every everybody knows is an issue, and, yeah, it just kinda sits there and, simmers and gets I don't know.
What so what what would you say are some good ways to combat that, to have better communication of, hey.
You know, I love you.
We wanna help you as much as you can.
However, you know, what how how do have you seen because some people are just less conflict or more conflict diverse than others.
I guess they just don't wanna bring things up.
It's a matter of talking about it as it happens and before it happens.
Sometimes it's an emergency situation.
A parent is ill, needs your help.
Sometimes your young adult needs to move back.
One of my twins, I bless the mother of twins.
One of my twins, moved back home with us, and and I said, okay.
Let's talk about how this is gonna work.
First of all, I'm not mommy anymore.
You're an adult, and I'm not gonna hunt you down.
Here's the thing.
I'm gonna ask you if you're gonna be home for dinner.
I'm gonna ask your help with things.
But, basically, you're an adult.
And the funny part is it's not me that hunts Kelly.
It's her twin, Robin.
Robin would call and go, so where is Kelly?
I don't know.
When is she coming home?
I don't know.
Why don't you know?
Because I'm not in charge of her anymore.
Just like I'm not in charge of you.
You know?
But a lot of parents, when the older adult child moves in, they think they're they're gonna be mama again, and they're gonna control a certain number of things.
And that's where the conflict starts.
Nobody talks about that elephant, father Charles.
And you know that thing just gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and it erupts into a conflict.
So I tell parents that if you have an older adult child moving back, let's talk about this.
And, no, you don't really need to control them like you did.
I mean, my daughters will tell you I was extremely controlling until they turned 18.
And then I said, you're you're you're grown ups.
Mama's not gonna control anymore.
And I don't.
And it makes for a a very happy arrangement.
I heard my daughter, Kelly, say to a friend recently, said, have you ever thought about moving out?
She goes, why?
My mother's a perfect roommate.
So does this, situation, sometimes turn into something that needs therapy and counseling?
Or do you have experience with that?
Oh, yes.
It does.
And it's a strain on the relationship.
It's it's a strain on the usually, again, the couple, the the parents.
They start to get into a battle.
One parent will be, well, this is you know, leave the kid alone.
She's fine.
Or do this or let's not do that.
And then they start to have issues.
But that's how I really discovered the multigenerational family dynamic was working with couples and finding out some of these issues where, well, since your mother moved in with us, since our children moved back, since we started taking care of the grandchildren and I found out there were there was no discussion about how this was gonna work.
There were no boundaries because some adult children will move back with their children.
And it's like, oh, hey.
Grandma's here.
She could she can take care of everything.
Grandpa can take them to school.
I can just go be a kid again.
No.
That's the wrong answer.
So it's a matter of negotiating.
We're gonna live in the same house.
And you mentioned size of house.
Whose house we live in, especially when older adults move in, is a battleground issue.
Because grandma may want you to move into her house, but it may not be as roomy.
There may not be there may be or there may be stairs if they if grandma wants to move in your house.
So a lot of homes, even home builders now, are more commonly building houses with two master suites on the Ground Floor with the anticipation that there may be an older adult moving in and and which the status would be an issue.
So it's that's actually showing up a lot in home builders.
It's a response to the trend.
You mentioned earlier that this is, kind of an American problem, and we don't seem to do a good job because other cultures are poor.
I guess people have, have adjusted to it.
And maybe because of our freedom and economic opportunity in this country, we've had a lot less of it or had historically.
What are some of the things we might learn from other cultures to make to help us handle this in a better way?
Well, I think a lot of it starts, father, with respect for older adults and and realizing that there is a certain responsibility.
Those people who cared for us in our dependency may someday be dependent and need us.
So it's not an and there's a cultural context issue, individualistic cultures versus collectivistic cultures.
I tell this to my students all the time.
Collectivistic cultures tend to presume it is an expectation.
In fact, it's even considered an honor to care for the older adults as well as the younger in your family.
Individualistic cultures are more on their own.
You don't live two blocks away from your parents anymore.
And you may live five states away from your parents.
So we don't look at it quite the same way.
And yet as people live longer, that's a blessing.
Long life is a blessing.
Then their dependency years are likely to be greater.
In earlier generations where living to 60 or 65 was kind of a big deal, you made it to 70.
Wow.
That was great.
Not that many people lived in older ages.
Now living well into the eighties, is far more common, and the fastest growing demographic group in America is 85.
That surprises most people.
What are some of the criteria that would, you can use to determine if a situation like this isn't working where, you know, if you're not certainly have to be talking about it and communication would be very helpful.
But are there certain, criteria or certain signals, signs that this multi generational, formula is not is not working and you need to look for something else?
There is tremendous stress in the household.
People are not getting along.
They're not talking to each other.
And one of the first ones I see again is if there's a couple who I consider the parent of everybody, it's straining their marriage.
And that's kind of the first time maybe they have sought counseling, not necessarily for multigenerational family living, but it's straining their it's straining their relationship.
And it's like, well, your mother since your mother moved in or your dad has all these needs or you've always catered to the kids, those are the things I hear.
And so when that if that you know, I I've gotta, first of all, try to keep that relationship.
Because if that relationship breaks, that's right now the backbone of the whole family.
And so what do they do?
They either yell at each other or they all stop talking.
And I found an interesting way to change that.
And what's that?
Well, it's part of what I call the PDL approach to counseling.
Pure dumb luck.
I had tried everything I could think of and all of my, you know, bag of tricks, and nothing was working.
So I said to a family I talked to them about journaling.
Nobody wanted to journal.
I said, okay.
Here's what we're gonna do.
They're all in my office.
Gonna put a notebook down on the kitchen counter where everybody goes every day.
And I said, mom, you're gonna start it.
Every day, a different person starts it.
You have to write one positive sentence.
I I don't care what it is.
It can be the weather's nice.
It can be tomorrow's a holiday.
One positive sentence does not accuse anyone.
Everybody in the family, kids and everybody, you read it, and you add a positive response, Or you ask a question.
Nobody speaks.
Everybody writes every single day.
Bring me the journal.
They're like, I don't want a day, and I ask everybody does it.
You know?
So the first week was a little strained.
Actually, it was the teenager and the grandparent who were the most resistant to that, interestingly enough.
But, okay, we did it.
By the second week, they're they said, can we ask a question in the journal?
Oh, yeah, if it's if it's positive.
So we ask a question.
By the third week, the journal got longer and longer.
By the fourth week, one of the teenagers said, can we just talk?
What an idea.
Yes.
You can just talk.
How about you do it over dinner?
Keep it positive, just like the journal.
Yeah.
Can we just talk?
We're tired of writing.
Can we just talk?
Yeah.
I think I think I could let you do that.
And they started talking.
And they found out that they could talk and talk pleasantly.
And that was one of those things.
That's what I call my help god therapy, father.
When I'm sitting with a client and I've tried everything I can do and I put on my therapeutic smile, and my little voice in my head goes, help, lord.
I got no idea.
I need something.
And, you know, he gives it to me.
Help god therapy.
Yeah.
Hey.
Let's help god.
Right?
But, you know, positivity.
Right?
Is that it's so sort of, like, contagious, I guess?
Well, when families are disputing, everybody points to the thing they don't like about each other and the thing that frustrates them about each other.
And they become so focused on that, same in relationships, that they don't see the other side.
So I just push them sometimes to see the other side.
And I'm not negating that there are problems by any means.
But if all you're gonna do is point out the negative, you are never ever gonna get to relationship.
From what you're saying, you know, negotiating boundaries was was one of the things that has to happen here.
Some people love to negotiate.
A lot of people are intimidated by the word.
Yeah.
What are some of the things you should try to avoid or pitfalls in in doing that so that it doesn't become one-sided in some way?
Because that way, it could may not really help solve the problem.
But any suggestions for how to do that well?
I think families have to talk about what each person, what do you what do I need, in within the family?
What do I need?
And maybe for one person, it's I need some quiet time because I'm going to graduate school, and I have to study.
And so if I could put a sign on my door saying I'm studying, could everybody respect that for an hour?
Or maybe it's one of the parents saying, hey.
You know, we we need help with other things around the house too.
It's what do people need?
Or maybe grandma or grandpa needs a little extra time to do things.
How can we be patient?
If we look at what people need and then figure out how can how can how can we participate in that need because everybody in the family has a different need.
Some people want quiet.
Some people want a chat.
How can we accommodate something of importance to each person?
Because when we do that, what we're really doing is we're honoring that person.
And some you know, especially a lot of cultures who are very collectivistic are particularly good at showing honor to their older adults.
I don't think that's a word we use very often.
Not often enough with our older adults is showing that we honor them.
Seems like part of this is, making this multi generational family structure work is developing new habits.
Writing down something in a journal every day and then week after week, it looks like a new habit was developing, a habit of communication, and it bloomed into something very beneficial.
Maybe are there other habits that have to be developed, specific habits that have to be developed to make this work?
I have suggested to families, let's find something that everybody can do that is, that you all feel is valuable.
So, for example, if it's possible and, again, physical limitations, is there something you all could volunteer on maybe on a once or twice a month together?
Could you go down and help your church's food pantry?
Could you do something, you know, within the community?
People who work together start to join together.
So it needs to be an activity that everyone can physically or emotionally or mentally do.
But what could we all do together, that helps outside of the household So we kind of take ourselves out as a group and that will vary by family and by interest You mentioned, honor honor of older people.
And, it seems like it's, it's a real challenge in some ways today.
I was reading about this, and it was one of the new I I I can't remember which generation group that they divided these people into, but because I'm now 57, so I'm starting to, like, think about this more realizing, hey.
You know, I just don't click with some of these younger people right away.
Right?
And I found out that at least one article said that a younger one of the younger gen they didn't want to be lectured to or told what to do.
But at at the same time, they had they they wanted mentors.
Like, they wanted they wanted so it wasn't that they were closed.
They didn't appreciate the experience and wisdom of, older people, but it's kinda like the delivery.
And I I don't know if, if if that because it would seem like it's a universal thing.
We all I mean, we should certainly be grateful for what our elders have done, but also appreciate the experience and the wisdom that they can give us.
But it's there's gonna be, like, a mutual how how what what are good ways to foster that?
That's an excellent point.
You know, mentoring has, of course, taken hold in the business community, looking for someone, you know, who has, like, proverbially has the job you want and to be a mentor.
But there are opportunities for older adults to be mentors within their family or even within the community.
Some of the volunteers when my daughters were in our church's teen group That were the most effective and that and the biggest blessing were older adults who volunteered with the middle school and high school group now I wouldn't wanna volunteer with the middle school and high school group.
I was grateful somebody else was doing it, but they just had a way with teenagers.
And I was so thankful.
I said to our to our director of middle school and high school, thanks for including them.
Because sometimes in church based groups and other groups, no one wants to invite the grandparent types.
And yet, you know, what a blessing.
They would listen.
Teenagers will listen to the grandparents and the older adults at times when they don't listen to their own parents or that generation.
So it's a wealth and, you know, we have to find somebody who has a heart for that, of course.
But we're we're we're not taking the maximum advantage of the wisdom that's all around us, either in our churches or our schools.
Some schools have programs.
I know they do in my area where I live in Florida where older adult volunteers come in and read to children, during some lunch break times.
And sometimes they a few of these schools I know are in a little bit, you know, more disadvantaged areas.
So maybe there's not as many people around to read or to do activities with children.
That's such a blessing, We just and there's a even a foster grandparents program.
And isn't it interesting?
Why are these all in the secular world?
Where's our church?
Why are we not doing this more?
Seems to me one thing that could be very helpful is for the, more elderly members of this multi multi generational family these multi generational families is to, relate interesting experiences they've had in their lives.
You mentioned this before, I think maybe in an earlier podcast about, you know, not people not wanting to hear the same story over and over.
But some of the stories, the elderly might have can be very, very interesting.
You know, they they they they live through a war, you know, or, you know, years ago it was, you know, I I lived through the depression, you know.
Stories of experiences that young younger generation might not ever have, you know.
And and if elderly, people would understand, you know, people love stories, relate some of the things to young people that they might never experience in their life.
And maybe that would, you know, engage them and and and make, make them, make them, honor or value the, them in this in this family structure.
Yes.
Older adults have lived through a lot of life and have encountered similar experiences, maybe not exactly the same.
So sometimes when I do older adult groups, one of the one of the easy conversation starters is, tell me about your first car.
Tell me about the first trip that you took.
What was the best experience you had when you were in high school or in school?
Sometimes I say school in general.
Now in today's older adults, sixties and seventies, more likely have have have been at least through high school, where some of my much older clients I've worked with in their eighties and nineties may have had to quit school in the eighth grade to go to work.
So high school is not something they know, but something about school.
What is a what is a book you love?
What is a, you know, what is a story you love?
And a lot of times, those will also call come from their cultural backgrounds, a special cultural story, which and one of the things older adults, they don't do it anymore.
We've we've kind of changed with our older adults, but I love my oldest old because the things they say were actually a transmission of cultural imperatives, like the phrase, don't air your dirty laundry in public.
That was a cultural imperative not to go out and gossip about your family.
There were a stitch in time saves nine.
That was a cultural imperative that said get things done.
So some of these phrases, I've collected them over the years for my for my clients.
These phrases that older adults will say, especially the eighties and nineties crowd, were away.
I think the culture transmitted its values, and they weren't just odd things older people say.
There really is a value transmission in those.
So is your do you think that most older people actually wanna want would love people to ask them those questions?
Sounds like Mhmm.
You know, when you when you about anything.
Right?
Well, tell me what what got you so interested in this, etcetera.
What what's been you know, what's what do you think is the best decision you ever made in your life?
And get them to talk about this.
I don't know.
Just it seems like there'd be a lot of receptivity to that.
Or am I am I wrong?
Oh, absolutely.
Because it's a again, when we speak with people and we ask them for information, for for their advice, for their suggestions, for their their life value, we show value to them.
I've heard some of the most amazing stories from older adults that I've worked with, their background, what they've experienced, how they've overcome difficulties, faith stories that are just stunning and wonderful, that showed how God has showed up in their life at times when there was an imperative.
It just it's so it's so empowering to me to hear those.
I go, wow.
You know what?
There's people have so many people have overcome so much, and when they tell you their faith story, I feel like it emboldens my faith.
And you probably heard those things from older adults.
Sometimes it's advice givers, and sometimes the advice is, you know, maybe it doesn't apply, but my thing is, well, you know, that's a really great idea.
Let me think about how I could potentially use that rather than, well, we don't do it that way anymore.
Okay.
Maybe we don't, but let me think about it.
I keep thinking about my my uncle.
He was a great storyteller.
He'd always have people around the dinner table captivated, laughing, or Mhmm.
Scolding him for telling stories that, wherever they went.
But he but everyone listened to, you know, my uncle Bob telling stories because he had so many of them.
He had he had a fantastic memory.
And, you know, he could relate current current, current news to a story from the past.
And it was very interesting, you know, how how they related.
And so, storytelling, I think is a great way to start a communication, you know.
It can teach lessons in spite of people's reluctance maybe to wanna be taught a lesson.
Again, I think you'd mentioned this about special occasions.
That's something that the multigenerational families can do or families when they gather, an older adult is, you know, we're celebrating Thanksgiving, or we're celebrating Christmas, or Easter, or what was what was the most memorable or the most special, Easter celebration your family did or Christmas or birthday or how did, you know, how did you how did your birthday celebration start when you were a little girl, you know, or a little boy?
Those kinds of things that just relate to something that everybody everybody can relate to themselves is birthdays or holidays.
And I have done a modality in my group techniques book about spiritual memories, and we talk about your spiritual legacy and what were the spiritual symbols that were important?
Now those may vary depending on person's faith tradition, but everybody has them.
And what are they, and why are they important?
And then one of the favorites that I had one elder care home almost have a fit when I did this, and it turned out wonderful.
And I've done it many times.
I call it postcards from eternity.
And this is after I've gotten to know a group really well.
And I'll give them a large not not really a postcard, but postcard and say, okay.
Let's talk about eternity.
However you believe it's going to be, whatever your faith tradition is.
And on the front, I want you to address it to somebody.
Put somebody in mind that you'd like to communicate this.
And on the neck backside, you know those old vacation postcards that say, hey.
I'm having a great time in Florida.
Wish you were here.
Well, it's one of those.
Think about if you are where you believe in your faith tradition, you will be in eternity.
What message would you send back?
Put it on a postcard.
And at first, one director said, oh, that's gonna be depressing.
I said, no.
It's not.
Because everyone in this age group is thinking about that.
They're either thinking, what is next based on their faith tradition?
Or if they have no faith tradition, they're really thinking about what's next, or is there a next?
And this ended up being very meaningful to all my groups that I've done this with because they all everyone wants to communicate something to someone.
And maybe they just have felt intimidated or ignored or not given the opportunity.
And we need to give them we need to give older adults the opportunity to talk about what's next and why do they have the hope that's in them, and why is it important as opposed to, oh my gosh.
They're getting close to dying.
Let's don't talk about that.
And as one older adult said to me, do they think we don't know that?
Doctor Erwin, we we have just a few minutes here left.
And, I was wondering, are there any particular resources that could be helpful to people who wanna learn more about this book's articles that you can recommend?
Well, I think if if the if the family is dealing with dementia, definitely go to the Alzheimer's Association website.
They have a lot of books and and not just books for you as caregivers, but what I love is they have complete list of books talking about what dementia and Alzheimer's is like written in the perspective of small children, medium grade children, high school, and upper.
Consult with someone, you know, who has a counseling background and an understanding of families with older adults.
It is a little bit different than how we deal with certain other ages, But, frankly, I find it easier than teenagers.
Teenagers are different too.
So don't just look at it like, oh, I've got this older person, and nobody knows what to do with them.
Well, the first of all is you value them, and you love them, and you realize that God loves them too exactly as they are.
It's not the same as they were twenty years ago, but that doesn't mean they lack value.
And that's the greatest gift you can give to any older adult is to demonstrate that you value them.
I know I've asked you this before.
Do you have a website?
I'm I'm sorry.
An email address that people can send you messages or questions?
Yes.
Maybe you have a website, can ask you questions.
Could you give that to us again?
Yes, please.
I would love to hear from any of our listeners.
It's k e r w I n, my name, kerwin@divinemercy.edu.
And I would be absolutely delighted to provide any information or resources for you.
Let's not give up on our older adults because by God's grace, that'll be you someday.
Well, doctor Erwin, thank you so much for this very interesting, topic, this very interesting discussion.
Father Charles, thank you.
We look forward to talking with you soon.
I don't know if you have any, last things you'd like to share, but, we've really run out of time.
No.
Just thank you very much.
And, you know, I'm sure that this is just gonna add to what's already an amazing series, in our Flourish podcast.
Have a wonderful day, doctor and father.
Look forward to talking with you all again soon.
Thank you.