WEBVTT 00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:13.700 Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast sponsored by Divine Mercy University. 00:00:14.235 --> 00:00:19.295 My name is Thomas Kronquist, and I'm the cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of DMU. 00:00:19.355 --> 00:00:20.875 Father Charles, how are you today? 00:00:20.875 --> 00:00:21.435 Really well. 00:00:21.435 --> 00:00:24.015 Looking forward to our topic and our guest today. 00:00:24.155 --> 00:00:27.215 Well, father, we have a very interesting episode this afternoon. 00:00:27.275 --> 00:00:35.930 We'll be talking with George Forsyth, who was a policeman for twenty five years, then he became a therapist earning his counseling degree from DMU. 00:00:36.390 --> 00:00:45.945 In his practice, George only sees first responders, and he's gonna tell us about his experience as a police officer and the mental health challenges first responders face. 00:00:46.245 --> 00:00:47.785 George, welcome to the podcast. 00:00:48.245 --> 00:00:49.525 Thank you very much. 00:00:49.525 --> 00:00:50.345 It's an honor. 00:00:51.605 --> 00:00:51.845 Yes. 00:00:51.845 --> 00:00:53.925 I'm really looking forward to this conversation, George. 00:00:53.925 --> 00:01:00.770 You know, we, met you several months ago, and I was just fascinated by your story and what you're doing. 00:01:00.770 --> 00:01:14.795 And, you know, today, it's so important, our first responders and and the the pressures and stresses that they're under to have people who who they can relate to and and, you know, get help to help them persevere. 00:01:14.855 --> 00:01:19.895 We really need to support and help our police officers, our firefighters, and so forth. 00:01:19.895 --> 00:01:22.695 So, thank you so much for being with us. 00:01:22.695 --> 00:01:29.160 And, how'd you get involved in police work and and and what led you here? 00:01:29.460 --> 00:01:32.120 Well, first of all, it is an honor to work with that population. 00:01:32.180 --> 00:01:38.360 As a as a retired Maryland state trooper, I always said, you know, I worked with my heroes and now I get to work with them again. 00:01:38.985 --> 00:01:42.905 And, certainly not the best therapist out there. 00:01:42.905 --> 00:01:46.985 There are way more skilled men and women than me. 00:01:46.985 --> 00:02:00.820 But when it comes to understanding that job, especially from a police perspective, I I think that I that's where my expertise would be because I certainly lived that for as a Maryland state trooper for twenty five years. 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:05.220 So, I understand a lot of what they're going through. 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.825 I I understand a lot of what they're going through. 00:02:09.825 --> 00:02:17.185 I don't understand the current culture with this hatred, it seems like, of defunding the police and the police are bad and everything else. 00:02:17.185 --> 00:02:25.300 There was always an element that didn't like the police or didn't trust the police, but not nothing like I've seen in the last few years. 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:29.400 I certainly hear from the officers that come in here. 00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:36.525 But my journey, yes, started as a as a Maryland State Police cadet in 1984. 00:02:36.525 --> 00:02:41.025 I would have been about, I think I was about 20 years old. 00:02:41.325 --> 00:02:41.565 Yeah. 00:02:41.565 --> 00:02:43.985 Because I was a I was a cadet for one year. 00:02:44.445 --> 00:02:46.765 And as a cadet, you're not really a police officer. 00:02:46.765 --> 00:02:47.825 You're not in the academy. 00:02:47.885 --> 00:02:51.880 It's kind of, it's kinda like discerning. 00:02:51.940 --> 00:02:58.200 You know, you're discerning whether or not you're gonna be a Maryland state trooper, and they're discerning whether or not they're gonna let you be one. 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:00.920 So you do that for a year. 00:03:01.300 --> 00:03:02.260 You don't carry a gun. 00:03:02.260 --> 00:03:05.535 You just work with troopers doing whatever they need you to do. 00:03:05.755 --> 00:03:07.375 And then you enter the academy. 00:03:07.595 --> 00:03:12.395 And our academy is one of the few left in the nation that's a a residential academy. 00:03:12.395 --> 00:03:21.340 So if you're to be a Maryland state trooper and I believe California Highway Patrol, maybe one or two others out there, You have to live there for six months. 00:03:21.720 --> 00:03:24.060 So it's like the military. 00:03:24.440 --> 00:03:26.140 You live there for six months. 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:31.180 You get to come home on weekends if you don't get too many demerits. 00:03:32.145 --> 00:03:42.965 As father Charles may know, I'm a bit of a class clown, so I spent more than a few weekends, more than a few weekends at the State Police Academy, which was in, Pikesville, Maryland. 00:03:43.345 --> 00:03:46.320 And the academy was in Pikesville at the headquarters at the time. 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:47.780 Now it's in Sykesville. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.420 It's a real big, more modern facility. 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:57.200 So I went in there in 1985, and, I had then did my six months before I graduated. 00:03:57.200 --> 00:04:04.035 And I started like most troopers in uniform, big hat, side of I 95, flagging them down. 00:04:04.035 --> 00:04:05.075 They don't even do that anymore. 00:04:05.075 --> 00:04:08.615 We had to do that on the side, run out in traffic and flag them down. 00:04:10.595 --> 00:04:16.230 At the time, there has always been a bit of an interest in counseling for me. 00:04:16.230 --> 00:04:18.490 This didn't come out of left field. 00:04:20.150 --> 00:04:26.765 When I was in elementary school, I was seeing a guidance counselor named miss Shears because of some family issues. 00:04:26.765 --> 00:04:28.145 I had to see her once a week. 00:04:28.685 --> 00:04:32.065 And, I loved her. 00:04:32.125 --> 00:04:38.305 I had the biggest crush a third grader could have on a on a, on a guidance counselor. 00:04:38.580 --> 00:04:43.540 And I remember one time I told her that I I would like to be a counselor one day. 00:04:43.540 --> 00:04:45.220 And she said, why? 00:04:45.220 --> 00:04:48.100 And I said, because I'd like to help people. 00:04:48.100 --> 00:04:51.475 Well, they had something called a happy gram when you're in elementary school. 00:04:51.475 --> 00:04:56.755 It's a happy face and a memo and hand write some stuff to send it to you. 00:04:56.755 --> 00:04:57.355 It's like an attaboy. 00:04:57.355 --> 00:04:58.675 You can send it to your parents. 00:04:58.675 --> 00:04:59.875 I still have it. 00:04:59.875 --> 00:05:03.415 Still have it where she said that she said this story. 00:05:03.635 --> 00:05:07.230 So there was always a little bit of a desire to help people. 00:05:07.230 --> 00:05:08.850 I was always interested in psychology. 00:05:09.070 --> 00:05:11.350 I was always interested in philosophy and things like that. 00:05:11.350 --> 00:05:12.210 I read a lot. 00:05:12.590 --> 00:05:15.570 And very quickly, I became a detective. 00:05:15.950 --> 00:05:17.230 I was I was young. 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:19.545 I graduated at 21. 00:05:19.545 --> 00:05:22.505 I turned 21 in May May and graduated in June. 00:05:22.505 --> 00:05:25.965 So for a little while, I was the youngest Maryland state trooper out there. 00:05:26.345 --> 00:05:27.485 I was very youthful. 00:05:28.025 --> 00:05:32.640 I grew up appearance wise, and I grew up in an area of Prince George's County with a lot of crime. 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:34.640 So I certainly understood crime. 00:05:34.640 --> 00:05:40.000 I'd seen it all my life, and I was grew up very short. 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.020 Only until my high school years did I grow taller and start lifting weights. 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:52.155 So I learned to be funny to survive in a rough neighborhood so I could easily gain trust from a lot of people. 00:05:52.155 --> 00:05:57.055 So there were some things in the works God was already doing that were already in the works. 00:05:58.555 --> 00:06:03.600 So I, I started in narcotics, and I I didn't like it. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:04.960 I wasn't too good at it. 00:06:04.960 --> 00:06:10.640 I was in a I was in a, a unit that they did the electronic type of surveillance work. 00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:11.680 I'm not good at that. 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.440 I didn't get the excitement. 00:06:13.440 --> 00:06:14.880 This is the Miami Vice days. 00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:16.420 You know, I didn't get the excitement. 00:06:17.045 --> 00:06:19.765 One earring, you know, out there doing things. 00:06:19.765 --> 00:06:21.625 And I and I live right back to uniform. 00:06:22.485 --> 00:06:36.290 But in doing so, I met a a senior investigator named John, and he was in something called a repeat offender unit, where they basically just went out and waited till these bad guys would mess up and they'd lock them up again. 00:06:37.390 --> 00:06:38.590 And he said, yeah. 00:06:38.590 --> 00:06:40.050 You should interview for that. 00:06:40.190 --> 00:06:40.990 And I did. 00:06:40.990 --> 00:06:43.410 I went up and interviewed for that. 00:06:44.030 --> 00:06:52.305 And, they, the captain interviewed me and he said, I'm gonna put you in something called the special assignment unit instead. 00:06:53.085 --> 00:06:54.705 They do the contract murders. 00:06:55.245 --> 00:07:01.870 They do the gambling cases, vice cases, any kind of undercover case that's non narcotic. 00:07:02.010 --> 00:07:04.250 We have a narcotics division to handle narcotics. 00:07:04.250 --> 00:07:06.190 You handle anything that's not narcotics. 00:07:07.610 --> 00:07:11.550 But, you know, as as you probably know, I definitely learned everything is narcotics. 00:07:11.690 --> 00:07:13.770 You work prostitution, you're working drugs. 00:07:13.770 --> 00:07:15.735 If it's stolen property, you're working drugs. 00:07:15.895 --> 00:07:17.175 Most murders, drugs. 00:07:17.175 --> 00:07:19.255 Everything is drug related. 00:07:19.255 --> 00:07:21.915 But that's what and I did that and I stayed. 00:07:22.215 --> 00:07:25.515 I got under some guys that have been around forever. 00:07:25.975 --> 00:07:27.755 They became like my big brothers. 00:07:29.090 --> 00:07:30.570 I I loved them to death. 00:07:30.570 --> 00:07:36.350 I learned so much from they were a very rough bunch of guys, but I learned so much from these guys. 00:07:37.130 --> 00:07:41.150 We had an office that was undercover at Spring Grove Mental Mental Hospital. 00:07:42.285 --> 00:07:43.665 Nobody would ever suspect. 00:07:44.045 --> 00:07:51.645 They have houses at Spring Grove for kind of a higher functioning residential patients, and they'd live there in a group. 00:07:51.645 --> 00:07:54.530 And one house in the middle of all of them was us. 00:07:55.070 --> 00:08:00.990 And to be honest, you wouldn't have been able to tell that we weren't the residents the way we looked the way we looked and acted. 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:03.150 And we knew all the other residents from the houses. 00:08:03.150 --> 00:08:04.030 They would come by. 00:08:04.030 --> 00:08:05.170 They would talk to us. 00:08:05.550 --> 00:08:08.210 And, that was our that was my office for a long time. 00:08:08.825 --> 00:08:15.885 And there I learned, really honed my skills and became adept at undercover investigations. 00:08:16.025 --> 00:08:22.060 That's what I was known for, especially contract murders, going to jail undercover. 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.180 I've been incarcerated five times undercover. 00:08:25.400 --> 00:08:36.555 I've, I don't know how I literally couldn't tell you how many times I've been hired to kill somebody, burn something up, rape, steal, you know, whatever. 00:08:36.855 --> 00:08:40.795 They didn't know I was a police officer, obviously, but many times. 00:08:41.495 --> 00:08:45.675 So you you would they would hire you to like, you were the guy who would go out. 00:08:46.550 --> 00:08:51.130 You obviously didn't do those things, but you would get somebody to make the contract, then you would bust them. 00:08:51.510 --> 00:08:52.010 Absolutely. 00:08:52.150 --> 00:08:53.750 That's that's that's what I did. 00:08:53.750 --> 00:09:06.325 You know, they would hire me to they're going through a divorce, and they're like, well, if, why why give up half of everything when I could get rid of somebody I hate anyways and I could keep everything? 00:09:06.325 --> 00:09:08.405 And they'd hire a hit man, you know, and something. 00:09:08.405 --> 00:09:12.805 So, yeah, I did a bunch I did it a that was what I was known for. 00:09:12.805 --> 00:09:17.350 That was what I would get calls from Baltimore County, Baltimore City, out of state. 00:09:17.650 --> 00:09:20.370 That's what I was known for, was helping out on those kind of cases. 00:09:20.370 --> 00:09:22.390 And now that sounds dangerous and stressful. 00:09:23.170 --> 00:09:23.490 Yeah. 00:09:23.490 --> 00:09:27.090 The the dangerous part is when is the last is when you go to make the arrest. 00:09:27.090 --> 00:09:34.615 Because if you think about it, there is only one person in the world who knows I killed his wife. 00:09:35.155 --> 00:09:40.355 And if something happens to me, then there's nobody in the world that knows I killed his wife. 00:09:40.355 --> 00:09:41.735 So I'm always very careful. 00:09:41.875 --> 00:09:44.490 Because sometimes we would pretend we actually killed him. 00:09:45.050 --> 00:09:47.070 We would go find the intended victim. 00:09:47.770 --> 00:09:49.530 We would tell them what was going on. 00:09:49.530 --> 00:09:50.590 We'd hide them. 00:09:50.810 --> 00:09:52.510 They'd give us something, you know. 00:09:53.050 --> 00:09:54.650 I worked one one time, for example. 00:09:54.650 --> 00:10:00.225 She would just graduated from high school and so she had a a bunch of the, you know, the senior pictures. 00:10:00.225 --> 00:10:10.245 Used to get a stack of senior pictures when you were in high school that you could give to your family and everything else, you know, the little the little pictures, the yearbook pictures type of thing. 00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:17.640 And, she had a stack of them, so I took the whole stack and the bag and something else to show him that, hey. 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:18.740 I I really did it. 00:10:18.740 --> 00:10:20.500 Or I've done it before. 00:10:20.500 --> 00:10:21.380 We posed them. 00:10:21.380 --> 00:10:28.025 I went to Florida one time to get a victim, and, we had some homicide detectives come with us. 00:10:28.025 --> 00:10:35.725 And we posed him as if he was really killed, and we didn't have any kind of fake blood or anything. 00:10:35.785 --> 00:10:41.300 So one of the detectives in his lunch pail had some kind of salad dressing that was dark. 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:43.120 And he ripped his shirt. 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:48.500 We took his shirt, first of all, ripped it a little bit, and then we put it on, put it over the ground, and we shot it. 00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:52.965 And then we put the shirt back on him and had that stuff on him, and he posed him. 00:10:53.445 --> 00:10:56.005 And, I brought it back up to Maryland and said, yeah. 00:10:56.005 --> 00:10:56.905 Here's a Polaroid. 00:10:57.205 --> 00:11:00.725 You know, he's he's, threw him in a swamp or something. 00:11:00.725 --> 00:11:03.385 So, yeah, that was my expertise. 00:11:04.245 --> 00:11:12.340 And then I I also was on a, different different narcotics groups through the years, Maryland State Police major narcotics unit. 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:15.840 Yeah. 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:19.040 I I was very confident in my role as an undercover officer. 00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:21.760 But looking back, I don't know that I was really a very good narc. 00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:25.295 I don't I don't I just don't I made a I bought I bought millions of drugs. 00:11:25.455 --> 00:11:26.735 But I I don't know. 00:11:26.735 --> 00:11:29.455 I just felt like I could do better by doing that. 00:11:29.455 --> 00:11:37.680 But I was on a a DEA task force in Baltimore City called the violent traffickers initiative And, really love those guys. 00:11:37.680 --> 00:11:39.600 I I love those guys to death. 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:44.240 The the city mostly city police officers, but a lot of different different groups. 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:54.215 And then I also I ended my career, three year my last three years were in something called the Warrant Apprehension Task Force in Baltimore City. 00:11:55.235 --> 00:12:05.270 That's where, they basically Baltimore City has so many arrest warrants that other departments give them people to help them serve these arrest warrants. 00:12:05.270 --> 00:12:07.110 The state police gave them, like, three or four. 00:12:07.110 --> 00:12:08.170 I was one of them. 00:12:08.550 --> 00:12:11.050 You know, Baltimore County police gave them some. 00:12:11.110 --> 00:12:12.570 Marshals gave them some. 00:12:13.270 --> 00:12:15.590 And, you just go out and serve warrants all day long. 00:12:15.590 --> 00:12:19.615 When you get one, you call a wagon, put them in the wagon, and you just you have stacks of them. 00:12:19.615 --> 00:12:20.595 You just go out. 00:12:20.895 --> 00:12:25.075 And it'll great because it's not a lot of paperwork, but it's tons of action. 00:12:25.215 --> 00:12:33.120 That was all you were doing is searching houses and kicking in doors and running around, trying to you know, people jump out windows and chasing them. 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:37.460 And the paperwork was maybe a form, you know, got the guy under the bed. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:38.640 Here he is. 00:12:38.640 --> 00:12:39.940 You know, that was it. 00:12:40.400 --> 00:12:42.980 So, I did that for my last three years. 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:44.160 Okay. 00:12:44.160 --> 00:12:48.240 So you so you did this for a total of twenty five years, this kind of this kind of work? 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:48.525 Yeah. 00:12:48.605 --> 00:12:49.485 This kinda work. 00:12:49.485 --> 00:12:49.805 Yeah. 00:12:49.805 --> 00:12:51.025 Most mostly undercover. 00:12:51.405 --> 00:13:00.365 Twenty probably twenty two, twenty one years or so was all basically undercover or soft clothes. 00:13:00.365 --> 00:13:04.900 Like in a fugitive unit, you just wear jeans and a t shirt or shorts and a t shirt. 00:13:04.900 --> 00:13:06.180 You put a vest over top. 00:13:06.180 --> 00:13:09.880 You're not really undercover, but you're not in a uniform either. 00:13:10.420 --> 00:13:18.135 How did, how did some of these, men react when they found out, that you were a cop and not a contract killer? 00:13:19.715 --> 00:13:20.455 Oh, shocked. 00:13:21.795 --> 00:13:22.295 Shocked. 00:13:23.555 --> 00:13:34.870 You know, they they were well, in Maryland, the penalty for solicitation to commit a crime is the the penalty is the same as if you ever as if you actually completed the crime. 00:13:34.930 --> 00:13:38.950 So if you're arrested for solicitation to commit murder, you're looking at life. 00:13:39.490 --> 00:13:41.030 You're looking at a life sentence. 00:13:41.875 --> 00:13:44.355 There's a woman, I don't know if she's still in there or not. 00:13:44.355 --> 00:13:45.175 She was a grandmother. 00:13:45.955 --> 00:13:49.735 And, they gave her, I don't know how many how many years. 00:13:52.755 --> 00:13:53.395 Small world. 00:13:53.395 --> 00:13:59.170 I was working as a drug counselor, and one of the employees started at a methadone clinic. 00:13:59.170 --> 00:14:01.250 One of the employees said, you worked murder for hire. 00:14:01.250 --> 00:14:03.330 I was in jail with a lady to work murder for hire. 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:04.230 It was that grandmother. 00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:05.090 She said her name. 00:14:05.090 --> 00:14:06.690 I can't remember it now, but I was like, oh, yeah. 00:14:06.690 --> 00:14:07.170 That was me. 00:14:07.170 --> 00:14:07.970 That was definitely me. 00:14:07.970 --> 00:14:09.435 She hired me to kill her husband. 00:14:09.995 --> 00:14:11.995 So anyways, I'm in the fugitive unit. 00:14:11.995 --> 00:14:18.495 Now this career, took a took a toll on my personal life. 00:14:18.555 --> 00:14:21.515 There, you know, they it was a wreck. 00:14:21.515 --> 00:14:22.955 That was there's no other way to say it. 00:14:22.955 --> 00:14:27.240 I was I was divorced twice, living with a girlfriend. 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:32.420 I had I had four kids, but they didn't live with me all the time. 00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:33.460 I got them a lot. 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:37.460 I mean, as much as I possibly could, but and I love them to death. 00:14:37.460 --> 00:14:41.335 They're all very we're very I just visit I was just with two of them in New York. 00:14:41.395 --> 00:14:42.835 I was with another one in Virginia. 00:14:42.835 --> 00:14:46.295 So I'm just, you know but but anyways, my life was a wreck. 00:14:47.475 --> 00:14:54.455 My relationships, everything in my life was second to that job. 00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:57.790 Most of my career, I would have worked it for free. 00:14:58.410 --> 00:14:59.290 I just couldn't stop. 00:14:59.290 --> 00:15:01.690 I was a long time workaholic before I got on the job. 00:15:01.690 --> 00:15:13.625 And then this job just fed into it with the twenty four hours, the I don't know if it was the excitement or the or the satisfaction of, you know, you work a big case and now it's all done. 00:15:14.005 --> 00:15:17.285 You you get these guys or I I don't know what it was. 00:15:17.285 --> 00:15:24.530 But the but this everything that was not this job, including my faith, everything was second to this job. 00:15:24.530 --> 00:15:26.290 I can't, explain that enough. 00:15:26.290 --> 00:15:28.310 This job became it was everything. 00:15:29.010 --> 00:15:30.930 And I was really good at it. 00:15:30.930 --> 00:15:31.810 Really well known. 00:15:31.810 --> 00:15:33.350 On the undercover side of it. 00:15:33.410 --> 00:15:36.195 I wasn't really good at it with staying out of trouble. 00:15:36.195 --> 00:15:38.035 I wasn't really good at it with paperwork. 00:15:38.035 --> 00:15:41.475 But when it came to the actual undercover stuff, dynamite. 00:15:41.475 --> 00:15:43.335 I was really skilled in it. 00:15:43.795 --> 00:15:51.410 And, so my youngest at the time, Tommy, his mom calls me early in the morning. 00:15:51.410 --> 00:15:52.370 He'd been sick. 00:15:52.370 --> 00:15:56.230 And she said, the doctor called. 00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:59.110 They need Tommy to go to the hospital right away. 00:16:00.130 --> 00:16:01.830 This was early in the morning. 00:16:02.130 --> 00:16:03.750 Three, 04:00 in the morning. 00:16:03.970 --> 00:16:09.115 You don't usually get calls from an ex wife at three or 04:00 in the morning unless it's something bad. 00:16:09.495 --> 00:16:14.235 And she said, you know, they want them to take them to the hospital. 00:16:14.695 --> 00:16:16.315 It might be leukemia. 00:16:17.175 --> 00:16:18.135 And I was like, okay. 00:16:18.135 --> 00:16:19.190 I was getting ready for work. 00:16:19.190 --> 00:16:20.310 I was on a fugitive team. 00:16:20.310 --> 00:16:22.970 We already we always came out early, so I was awake anyways. 00:16:23.990 --> 00:16:28.890 So, you know, denial is a denial is pretty powerful. 00:16:29.030 --> 00:16:35.495 And so instantly, I thought of all the time somebody I love said, oh, they found a lump in her breast. 00:16:35.875 --> 00:16:36.995 It might be breast cancer. 00:16:36.995 --> 00:16:38.915 And then you find out later it's really not. 00:16:38.915 --> 00:16:45.175 Or, yeah, so and so is pretty sick, had to go to the hospital looking at his liver or his kidneys, and you find out it's really nothing. 00:16:45.395 --> 00:16:48.135 So I think I was telling myself that kind of stuff. 00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:50.010 So she goes to the hospital. 00:16:50.870 --> 00:16:52.570 I hadn't even left the house yet. 00:16:52.630 --> 00:16:55.050 I was kinda waiting to hear from her. 00:16:55.430 --> 00:16:57.610 And she said, it's leukemia. 00:16:57.910 --> 00:17:00.730 And they they're it's happening so fast. 00:17:00.995 --> 00:17:02.435 They need to take him by ambulance. 00:17:02.435 --> 00:17:05.975 You need to choose right now, University of Maryland Hospital or Johns Hopkins. 00:17:06.675 --> 00:17:11.155 Thank God I live in a city with Johns Hopkins and Maryland University Hospital. 00:17:11.155 --> 00:17:14.275 I mean, they're the two of the best hospitals in the world. 00:17:14.275 --> 00:17:19.490 Johns Hopkins arguably is the best hospital in the world, but University of Maryland is really good also. 00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:23.790 So immediately, it was like a punch in the gut. 00:17:23.790 --> 00:17:25.630 I remember I was in a bathroom at the time. 00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:29.630 I fell down by the toilet and just started sobbing. 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:31.545 I didn't know I literally didn't know what to do. 00:17:31.945 --> 00:17:34.205 And and that was unusual for me. 00:17:34.345 --> 00:17:38.825 To not think I could control everything in the world was unusual for me. 00:17:38.825 --> 00:17:44.285 I was a big muscular weightlifting guy, police officer working in Baltimore City. 00:17:45.270 --> 00:17:48.570 I thought I could handle literally anything by myself. 00:17:49.430 --> 00:17:54.170 I wasn't much of a I was a a Christian in the fact that I believed in God. 00:17:54.470 --> 00:17:55.690 I believed in Jesus. 00:17:55.750 --> 00:17:57.930 I'd even made a profession of fast. 00:17:58.275 --> 00:18:01.895 Made a profession of faith one time in an evangelical type of church. 00:18:01.955 --> 00:18:06.835 I grew up a Catholic, but I'd go to different churches and then come back to the Catholic church sometimes. 00:18:06.835 --> 00:18:13.670 But prayer to me then was that God's there to help you, but, you better handle it yourself. 00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:16.610 Kinda like a I always call it a Viking God. 00:18:16.610 --> 00:18:21.250 You know, just kinda call me if you really need me, but you better really need me. 00:18:21.250 --> 00:18:23.270 Don't bother me with a bunch of little stuff. 00:18:23.410 --> 00:18:26.695 Don't bother me with, God, please let the fuel gold go through. 00:18:26.695 --> 00:18:29.355 You know, we don't want those kind of prayers. 00:18:30.295 --> 00:18:35.735 So that began a journey that was the closest thing to hell I've ever seen. 00:18:35.735 --> 00:18:44.830 I mean, despite the fact, I I refer to the cancer ward, kids cancer ward as hell staffed by angels. 00:18:45.370 --> 00:18:50.250 They were some of the greatest staff because he went to both hospitals eventually. 00:18:50.250 --> 00:18:56.725 They were some of the greatest staff, the nurses, the doctors, all of them. 00:18:58.385 --> 00:19:01.425 So we're going through this, and it's getting worse. 00:19:01.425 --> 00:19:03.525 He ended up having two forms of leukemia. 00:19:04.625 --> 00:19:08.065 I mean, I remember him screaming for God to kill him. 00:19:08.065 --> 00:19:13.230 I remember holding him down while he would say that, when he would beg for God to kill him. 00:19:14.250 --> 00:19:17.930 And, you know, and and so they yeah. 00:19:17.930 --> 00:19:20.650 So his his mom was, like, to me, a real hero. 00:19:20.650 --> 00:19:22.190 His mom never left the hospital. 00:19:22.515 --> 00:19:27.735 Maybe one time left the left for the one evening for and he was there from February till November. 00:19:29.635 --> 00:19:32.915 So he's in the hospital, and it's not good. 00:19:32.915 --> 00:19:37.810 I mean, there there there's one time they had they had we had to call the family in to say goodbye. 00:19:37.810 --> 00:19:45.830 So I had to stand out in the hallway, and each of my children, as they would go in and say goodbye, and they'd come out and they'd break down and I'd hug them and then the next one. 00:19:46.690 --> 00:19:47.990 It it was bad. 00:19:48.875 --> 00:19:50.075 I'd stay at the hospital. 00:19:50.075 --> 00:19:59.615 They worked out a deal with me with the state police that that, the actually, my colonel at the time said, you know, I'll move you to my staff. 00:20:00.075 --> 00:20:03.500 I'll call you when I need you, and I will never need you. 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:09.880 So so I still went out sometimes in the morning with the fugitive team because I I just had to. 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:13.340 I just, work was my coping mechanism. 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:14.805 Everything for me was work. 00:20:15.365 --> 00:20:16.505 At night, I drank. 00:20:16.885 --> 00:20:18.085 That was the only way to sleep. 00:20:18.085 --> 00:20:19.385 I just drank. 00:20:19.605 --> 00:20:25.365 I'd either drink with some of the city police officers who'd come get me or or or meet me at a local pub. 00:20:25.365 --> 00:20:27.465 Near the in Baltimore City, there's the Hippodrome. 00:20:27.850 --> 00:20:30.250 And and across from there, there was an Irish pub at the time. 00:20:30.250 --> 00:20:31.390 I used to go there. 00:20:32.090 --> 00:20:48.865 So while I'm going while this is all going on, these horror stories, You know, just very quickly, I, almost got in a fight with a with a doctor there, and they were gonna move me out of the house. 00:20:48.865 --> 00:20:50.325 So just a lot of stuff happened. 00:20:50.465 --> 00:20:55.680 I started Tommy, where there was a stage while he could still eat, there was months that he couldn't eat. 00:20:56.080 --> 00:21:00.240 He was able to, eat because of the the drugs he was on. 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.140 The doctor said he's going to crave meat and salt. 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:09.060 And Lexington Market is like the mecca if you're looking for meat and salt. 00:21:09.545 --> 00:21:11.545 And so I would walk to Lexington Market. 00:21:11.545 --> 00:21:13.245 He never ate hospital food. 00:21:13.545 --> 00:21:14.825 Anything he wanted, I'd get it. 00:21:14.825 --> 00:21:19.725 Crab legs, Thai food, bulgogi, steak, whatever he wanted. 00:21:20.185 --> 00:21:24.125 Either I would get it or I'd call one of the city police officers and they would bring it by. 00:21:24.810 --> 00:21:26.010 And they they were great. 00:21:26.010 --> 00:21:27.930 They they would come by all the time. 00:21:27.930 --> 00:21:29.310 There was always somebody coming. 00:21:30.090 --> 00:21:34.590 And, well, there was Saint Jude Shrine is right up the street from Lexington Market. 00:21:34.730 --> 00:21:36.330 What about two blocks maybe? 00:21:36.330 --> 00:21:37.130 Father Charles. 00:21:37.130 --> 00:21:37.770 Something like that. 00:21:37.770 --> 00:21:38.010 Yeah. 00:21:38.010 --> 00:21:38.650 Right there. 00:21:38.650 --> 00:21:38.810 Yeah. 00:21:38.810 --> 00:21:39.585 It's real close. 00:21:39.585 --> 00:21:39.905 Yeah. 00:21:39.905 --> 00:21:40.405 Mhmm. 00:21:40.625 --> 00:21:45.905 So I would walk to Saint Jude Shrine every day. 00:21:45.905 --> 00:21:47.585 All well, almost every day. 00:21:47.585 --> 00:21:48.705 Seven days a week. 00:21:48.705 --> 00:21:49.845 It was always open. 00:21:50.465 --> 00:21:51.985 Wouldn't be necessarily mass. 00:21:51.985 --> 00:21:58.520 I didn't know what time I was gonna go there because it kinda depended what was going on with with Tommy or what else I was trying to do. 00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:02.280 So but I would go there every single day. 00:22:02.820 --> 00:22:03.540 Every single day. 00:22:03.540 --> 00:22:06.600 And and sometimes I would cry. 00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:07.060 You know? 00:22:07.060 --> 00:22:08.760 Sometimes I would just sit there. 00:22:09.155 --> 00:22:10.615 Sometimes I would just be mad. 00:22:11.075 --> 00:22:14.675 Sometimes mass would be going on, or I'd come in during my I was there so much. 00:22:14.675 --> 00:22:19.015 A priest came over to me one time and said, you know, I noticed you're here every day. 00:22:19.235 --> 00:22:20.515 Is there anything we can do? 00:22:20.515 --> 00:22:28.720 And, of course, back then, I had the famous what I hear from first responders my whole life, you ask if something's wrong. 00:22:28.940 --> 00:22:29.260 No. 00:22:29.260 --> 00:22:29.920 I'm good. 00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:32.940 I've said it a million times and they all say it. 00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:33.180 Nah. 00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:33.820 I'm good. 00:22:33.820 --> 00:22:35.505 That's what so I was the same way. 00:22:36.385 --> 00:22:38.645 Well, the calling happened. 00:22:39.025 --> 00:22:43.265 There was one particular day, and I don't remember it being any different than any other day. 00:22:43.265 --> 00:22:46.085 As I recollect, I know it was I know it was bright outside. 00:22:46.465 --> 00:22:47.700 It was it was sunny. 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:52.920 So I leave Saint Jude's, and I'm out front on those steps. 00:22:54.180 --> 00:22:55.880 And all of a sudden, it just hit me. 00:22:56.260 --> 00:23:01.800 And it was words internally, clear as a bell. 00:23:02.695 --> 00:23:09.275 I want you to work as hard setting them free as you did locking them up, and that was it. 00:23:09.895 --> 00:23:11.015 Never happened again. 00:23:11.015 --> 00:23:12.395 Never happened before that. 00:23:12.535 --> 00:23:14.070 Nothing like that ever happened again. 00:23:14.550 --> 00:23:15.910 And I know and I know it was a calling. 00:23:15.910 --> 00:23:18.710 I know that I mean, because it stopped me in my tracks. 00:23:18.710 --> 00:23:22.790 And you did work as hard to set them free as you did to put them in jail. 00:23:22.790 --> 00:23:23.110 Yes. 00:23:23.110 --> 00:23:24.390 You did locking them up. 00:23:24.390 --> 00:23:24.890 Okay. 00:23:25.030 --> 00:23:26.150 She did locking them up. 00:23:26.150 --> 00:23:27.795 And I knew exactly what it meant. 00:23:27.875 --> 00:23:31.395 I knew it meant it didn't mean necessarily being a defense attorney or an advocate. 00:23:31.395 --> 00:23:32.615 It's just I I knew. 00:23:32.915 --> 00:23:37.495 Like, without being verbalized what this meant, I knew. 00:23:37.875 --> 00:23:50.210 And I hear people talk about a calling as, you know, I hear people talk about smelling roses or I hear people, a feeling of peace or I hear people talk about this overwhelming love. 00:23:50.590 --> 00:23:52.370 I would did not have that experience. 00:23:52.590 --> 00:23:53.730 Mine was terrifying. 00:23:54.510 --> 00:23:55.730 Terrifying to me. 00:23:56.285 --> 00:24:14.160 It was like the only way I can describe it is if you can imagine being instantly laid open laid open for a split second from getting slapped in your rear as a baby till now at one time. 00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:16.000 It was instant. 00:24:17.020 --> 00:24:17.420 No. 00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:18.320 I know you. 00:24:18.860 --> 00:24:19.420 This is it. 00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:20.780 And it didn't even demand it. 00:24:20.780 --> 00:24:22.240 Just said, I want you to. 00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:23.840 And that was it. 00:24:24.300 --> 00:24:25.360 And it was terrifying. 00:24:28.115 --> 00:24:31.815 So I didn't do much with it at first other than think about it all the time. 00:24:32.435 --> 00:24:44.240 Maybe it could be argued ran from it a little bit because I I was thinking, you know, How how do you you know, I'm not I don't know anything about being a drug counselor. 00:24:44.300 --> 00:24:45.900 I knew it meant addictions, I should say. 00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:48.080 I didn't know anything about being a drug counselor. 00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:51.745 To me, 12 step groups of what you saw on television were, hi. 00:24:51.745 --> 00:24:52.305 I'm George. 00:24:52.305 --> 00:24:53.205 I'm an alcoholic. 00:24:53.265 --> 00:24:54.065 Hi, George. 00:24:54.065 --> 00:24:56.005 And then I didn't know what they did after that. 00:24:56.865 --> 00:25:04.225 So I didn't do much with it other than think about it all the time and, and started to change my life. 00:25:04.225 --> 00:25:06.325 I ended the relationship I was living. 00:25:07.320 --> 00:25:08.380 The end of that relationship. 00:25:09.560 --> 00:25:11.340 I I definitely was not a saint. 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.820 Definitely, pretty roughneck. 00:25:16.760 --> 00:25:20.235 But, but there was a change coming. 00:25:20.235 --> 00:25:24.335 There were I could there was there were changes happening in the way I looked at things. 00:25:25.115 --> 00:25:27.515 So fast forward, Tommy gets better. 00:25:27.515 --> 00:25:28.475 He's doing great now. 00:25:28.475 --> 00:25:30.235 He's 26. 00:25:30.235 --> 00:25:35.560 I have a beautiful daughter-in-law that's a daughter. 00:25:35.560 --> 00:25:36.700 She's not even a daughter-in-law. 00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:37.320 She's my daughter. 00:25:37.320 --> 00:25:39.020 He's been dating her since he's 18. 00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:41.160 So he he came through that? 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:41.640 Oh, yeah. 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:41.880 Yeah. 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.840 He beat it. 00:25:42.840 --> 00:25:43.000 Yeah. 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:43.640 He beat it. 00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:54.485 I mean, there was a lot of times in there, my prayer while he was sick was over and over again, God, kill me and save him. 00:25:54.485 --> 00:25:58.425 And if I said that prayer once, I said it 10,000 times. 00:25:58.645 --> 00:25:59.145 Yeah. 00:25:59.205 --> 00:26:11.710 And because my my perception was as as incorrect as it is, my perception was if God spares him, well, then somebody's gotta fill in that box. 00:26:11.710 --> 00:26:13.230 Somebody somebody's gotta go. 00:26:13.230 --> 00:26:15.415 You can't just say, you know, okay. 00:26:15.415 --> 00:26:17.175 This guy can live, but some okay. 00:26:17.175 --> 00:26:18.615 Well, I got this vacuum here. 00:26:18.615 --> 00:26:21.115 Somebody that has to go to has to be killed. 00:26:22.375 --> 00:26:23.975 And that's the way I looked at it. 00:26:23.975 --> 00:26:28.635 As as strange as that is, I lick and laugh about it now. 00:26:29.870 --> 00:26:35.090 There was even a time that if he died, I was contemplating suicide, not out of depression. 00:26:35.950 --> 00:26:42.930 I was contemplating suicide that he's not gonna be able to navigate the afterlife without somebody to help him. 00:26:43.470 --> 00:26:45.255 And, you know, why not me? 00:26:45.655 --> 00:26:47.975 You know, I certainly deserved it. 00:26:47.975 --> 00:26:49.735 You know, he didn't deserve anything. 00:26:49.735 --> 00:26:50.875 I I had done enough. 00:26:51.015 --> 00:26:56.055 By this time in my life, I had done enough, plenty, to to do that. 00:26:56.055 --> 00:26:57.115 But he came through. 00:26:58.430 --> 00:27:06.130 He came through and fast forward, my wife, who told the woman who's who's now my wife, knew about this calling. 00:27:07.070 --> 00:27:13.475 And, I wasn't really doing anything with it. 00:27:13.535 --> 00:27:18.035 Although I did I do believe at that time I started taking some community college classes. 00:27:18.575 --> 00:27:21.875 And I knew then about what what it would entail. 00:27:22.975 --> 00:27:25.875 You can't just walk in a place and be a drug counselor. 00:27:27.600 --> 00:27:31.360 So she knew something was she had a conversation with me. 00:27:31.360 --> 00:27:36.900 She's my my wife, Nikki, is my biggest source of support. 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:46.275 I I I can't even the the one of the biggest blessings I've had is her. 00:27:46.415 --> 00:27:51.555 And so she told me, she said, whatever happened with this? 00:27:52.655 --> 00:27:55.310 I said, nothing. 00:27:55.310 --> 00:27:56.190 You know, I'm working now. 00:27:56.190 --> 00:27:56.910 I've retired. 00:27:56.910 --> 00:28:01.310 I'm working now as a government contractor making pretty good money, traveling around. 00:28:01.310 --> 00:28:08.270 I worked in Honolulu for four weeks, Boston for four weeks, New York working as a government contractor, making good money. 00:28:08.270 --> 00:28:09.785 And I said, no. 00:28:09.785 --> 00:28:10.685 I'm not satisfied. 00:28:10.745 --> 00:28:11.145 It's not. 00:28:11.145 --> 00:28:14.765 It's it's not what I was called to do, and she knew what I meant. 00:28:15.545 --> 00:28:17.485 So she sat down with a spreadsheet. 00:28:17.625 --> 00:28:21.305 She's way more smarter than I am, especially when it comes to numbers. 00:28:21.305 --> 00:28:23.250 And she she showed me. 00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:25.590 She said, George, we can do this. 00:28:25.810 --> 00:28:30.290 She said, and besides, if God really called you, then it's not gonna fail. 00:28:30.290 --> 00:28:31.590 He's not gonna call you. 00:28:31.970 --> 00:28:34.130 You know, it's not like he's gonna call you to something. 00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:34.850 You're gonna do it. 00:28:34.850 --> 00:28:37.825 He's gonna start laughing and say, sucker. 00:28:38.685 --> 00:28:38.765 You know? 00:28:38.765 --> 00:28:41.025 You know, he's not gonna that's not the way it works. 00:28:41.645 --> 00:28:44.365 So she laid it all out for me and she said, we can do this. 00:28:44.365 --> 00:28:45.005 It'll be tight. 00:28:45.005 --> 00:28:45.165 Sure. 00:28:45.165 --> 00:28:45.885 It's gonna be tight. 00:28:45.885 --> 00:28:48.845 But we don't have any money all the time anyways. 00:28:48.845 --> 00:28:50.220 You know, it'll it'll be tight. 00:28:50.540 --> 00:28:51.600 So I did it. 00:28:51.900 --> 00:29:08.855 I talked to a friend of mine named Tracy who worked as a, in a residential treatment center near me in Annapolis and got my first job there as a, residential treatment assistant, which is kinda like the oompa loompas of a residential treatment. 00:29:08.855 --> 00:29:17.335 You take them to cigarette breaks, wake them up in the morning, do a group every now and then, get get their bags when they're leaving, you know, that kind of stuff. 00:29:17.335 --> 00:29:18.715 $12 an hour. 00:29:19.220 --> 00:29:22.840 $12 an hour with a wife and three stepchildren. 00:29:23.780 --> 00:29:26.200 I mean, well, they're my children now. 00:29:28.820 --> 00:29:29.880 Not a lot of money. 00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:32.180 And it just kept working out. 00:29:32.180 --> 00:29:39.255 And I I became a trainee through Maryland, then a CSC and a c a c CACAD. 00:29:40.675 --> 00:29:43.815 Worked my way up through, I got my bachelor's at Liberty University. 00:29:44.115 --> 00:29:48.180 And then, came time at the end of Liberty University. 00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:50.600 Now we're, like, around December 2017. 00:29:51.460 --> 00:29:56.520 I, I had known now from working in with addictions in residential treatment facilities. 00:29:56.660 --> 00:29:58.180 I worked at a luxury facility. 00:29:58.180 --> 00:30:01.165 I worked at methadone clinics in Baltimore City. 00:30:01.165 --> 00:30:08.205 I had a pretty good idea now from the therapy end about drugs, and I had determined that this is just a band aid. 00:30:08.205 --> 00:30:12.865 It's this is a mental illness that people are just using drugs and alcohol to cover up. 00:30:13.130 --> 00:30:19.310 And I decided I wanted to be a, a, mental health therapist. 00:30:19.690 --> 00:30:25.050 By now also my faith, I had reengaged with the Catholic faith. 00:30:25.050 --> 00:30:30.065 I was going to Catholic church and become become involved in a Catholic church. 00:30:30.065 --> 00:30:37.825 So I wanted to I'd been to a, Protestant bachelor's a Protestant university for my bachelor's. 00:30:37.825 --> 00:30:40.405 I wanted to get a Catholic, understanding. 00:30:41.450 --> 00:30:43.690 And so I don't remember how I found Divine Mercy. 00:30:43.690 --> 00:30:50.250 I think it was an article in a magazine, and it was called IPS then in the in this old magazine I saw. 00:30:50.250 --> 00:30:57.455 And I researched it, and that's when I saw that the, it was called Divine Mercy University. 00:30:57.915 --> 00:30:58.955 Somehow got accepted. 00:30:58.955 --> 00:31:00.655 Did that for two and a half years. 00:31:01.675 --> 00:31:08.495 Still as a drug counselor that whole time until my internship where I worked at Bay Area Christian Counseling. 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:15.860 And then after my internship, I worked a period of time at a place specializing in pornography and sex addiction called Rogue River Counseling. 00:31:17.040 --> 00:31:23.380 And then I worked, with a friend of mine at Lotus Psychotherapy before I started my own practice here, Driftwood Psychotherapy. 00:31:24.245 --> 00:31:30.005 Working with primarily police and first responders wasn't necessarily my intention in the beginning. 00:31:30.005 --> 00:31:33.685 It kinda just I started seeing the need more and more and more. 00:31:33.685 --> 00:31:40.090 And it was an interesting niche, and I've thought, well, I can certainly give back to that community. 00:31:40.870 --> 00:31:42.170 I know a lot about it. 00:31:42.310 --> 00:31:42.470 Yeah. 00:31:42.470 --> 00:31:49.290 So what what are, like, some of the more more common things that first responders face? 00:31:49.350 --> 00:31:52.470 Maybe one of them, as you said before, you know, oh, no. 00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:52.950 I'm good. 00:31:52.950 --> 00:31:54.105 I don't need any Oh, yeah. 00:31:54.345 --> 00:31:54.665 Absolutely. 00:31:54.665 --> 00:31:59.025 That's But, like, did it I'm sure there's drugs and alcohol Oh, absolutely. 00:31:59.385 --> 00:32:01.165 And family, you know, marriage. 00:32:01.705 --> 00:32:11.130 Just tell us a little bit about what, like, what are some of the common things and and and really how the experience of of the work kinda leads to some of these things. 00:32:12.070 --> 00:32:13.210 First of all, trauma. 00:32:14.070 --> 00:32:15.130 Trauma, PTSD. 00:32:15.590 --> 00:32:16.490 That's huge. 00:32:17.030 --> 00:32:20.525 Sometimes they don't even even know it's trauma. 00:32:20.525 --> 00:32:22.065 They're just feeling these symptoms. 00:32:22.605 --> 00:32:30.865 They're feeling the the symptoms come out like anxiety or depression or something else, but as you dig into it, it's trauma. 00:32:31.005 --> 00:32:32.225 So certainly PTSD. 00:32:32.445 --> 00:32:36.610 That's been my, you know, things come and go this week and last week. 00:32:36.610 --> 00:32:37.910 There's been a lot of that. 00:32:39.570 --> 00:32:45.510 Addiction, alcohol is king in those populations and, everything. 00:32:45.650 --> 00:32:48.915 Somebody gets promoted, let's go out drinking. 00:32:49.215 --> 00:32:51.555 Somebody dies, let's go out, drinking. 00:32:51.695 --> 00:32:53.535 The ravens win, let's drink. 00:32:53.535 --> 00:32:55.055 Ravens lose, let's drink. 00:32:55.055 --> 00:32:56.435 Everything was, let's drink. 00:32:56.735 --> 00:33:01.200 So the, so alcohol, sometimes drugs. 00:33:01.280 --> 00:33:04.100 You know, I do run into drugs sometimes also. 00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:06.740 Usually, it's abuse of prescription drugs. 00:33:07.120 --> 00:33:11.700 I don't I've only had a few where it's cocaine or something like that. 00:33:13.455 --> 00:33:18.415 So drugs, alcohol, of course, depression and anxiety that plagues kind of all of us. 00:33:18.415 --> 00:33:21.455 You know, they have some of the same problems we all do. 00:33:21.455 --> 00:33:23.295 I mean, they have loved ones that die. 00:33:23.295 --> 00:33:24.975 They have loved ones that die in accidents. 00:33:24.975 --> 00:33:29.660 They have loved ones that die you know, get diagnosed with a terminal illness and die. 00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:30.480 They have divorces. 00:33:31.100 --> 00:33:33.680 They have their own they bring their own past. 00:33:34.060 --> 00:33:34.720 You know? 00:33:34.780 --> 00:33:35.180 Yeah. 00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:35.740 You meant this. 00:33:35.740 --> 00:33:38.700 So in the PTSD, what kinds of things happen on a job? 00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:47.485 I remember I was talking to a retired, police officer, and she told me she would typically see two or three dead bodies a week and Oh, yeah. 00:33:47.765 --> 00:33:50.085 Became, you know, kinda numb to it. 00:33:50.085 --> 00:33:59.800 And I I don't think you can give us a little input on what the kinds of things that cause these traumas, and then they don't talk to anybody. 00:33:59.860 --> 00:34:01.300 I you could Yeah. 00:34:01.300 --> 00:34:08.435 Don't talk you don't talk to, certainly well, trauma can be different. 00:34:08.895 --> 00:34:12.595 Something that's traumatic could be traumatic to you that's not traumatic to me. 00:34:12.655 --> 00:34:13.055 Mhmm. 00:34:13.055 --> 00:34:16.595 Most of the people in those careers are pretty resilient. 00:34:16.735 --> 00:34:19.075 Early on, they start seeing a lot of things. 00:34:20.290 --> 00:34:25.430 I remember, when I was much younger, I was in The Carolinas. 00:34:25.490 --> 00:34:26.370 I was with some friends. 00:34:26.370 --> 00:34:30.530 We traveled down there and there was a table full of young merchant marines next to us. 00:34:30.530 --> 00:34:33.890 And we all started drinking together, you know, so we're all having a great time. 00:34:33.890 --> 00:34:39.705 And one of the merchant marines told me, he said, I'm on the I'm on the ship seven or eight month months out of a year. 00:34:39.765 --> 00:34:41.685 And he said, every day is pretty much the same. 00:34:41.685 --> 00:34:45.045 And one day, I am seasick, and I don't even know why. 00:34:45.045 --> 00:34:46.005 The weather's the same. 00:34:46.005 --> 00:34:46.965 I'm eating the same. 00:34:46.965 --> 00:34:51.110 What happened today that made me seasick that I wasn't seasick yesterday? 00:34:51.410 --> 00:34:54.230 And I'll get those questions coming in there in there. 00:34:54.850 --> 00:35:02.390 The the classic is the firefighter or the police officer going around to the other side of their car or sitting in their car after a call and crying. 00:35:03.345 --> 00:35:05.525 And they don't know why they're crying. 00:35:05.825 --> 00:35:13.685 They've certain I've heard it so many times where, you know, yeah, it was a fatal, horrible accident, but I've seen way worse accidents than this. 00:35:14.065 --> 00:35:15.765 Much more horrible than this. 00:35:16.065 --> 00:35:23.660 I use the analogy of, I think these guys have a big tank strapped on their back full of a liquid. 00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:30.140 And this liquid, I'll just call it a crack, the crap that you've seen as and you've done. 00:35:30.200 --> 00:35:31.660 And it just fills up. 00:35:32.045 --> 00:35:35.265 And then one day, it get through all these years, it fills up. 00:35:35.485 --> 00:35:39.245 And one day, something happens, and that's the last thing that's poured out. 00:35:39.245 --> 00:35:42.945 And as the last thing that's poured out, it's the first thing that to overflow. 00:35:43.245 --> 00:35:44.605 And that's what you see. 00:35:44.605 --> 00:35:49.690 So, yeah, you're seeing this fatal accident, and you're thinking, why did that set me off? 00:35:49.790 --> 00:35:59.210 The question is, you got here from something else or a bunch of something else's, and you're just now noticing the symptoms. 00:35:59.685 --> 00:36:02.665 And these guys can have the symptoms for a long time. 00:36:02.885 --> 00:36:13.305 For example, the the with with, PTSD, you see the, the irritability, the increased aggression, the the angry outbursts. 00:36:13.845 --> 00:36:18.750 Well, there there's walking time bombs walking around out there right now. 00:36:18.750 --> 00:36:19.970 There always have been. 00:36:20.430 --> 00:36:26.290 Now with the with, cameras on everybody's phone, we're starting to see that more. 00:36:28.645 --> 00:36:30.485 So they've always had these these symptoms. 00:36:30.485 --> 00:36:35.205 So when the trauma kinda piles up like that, that that's what they see. 00:36:35.205 --> 00:36:36.405 And it takes some digging. 00:36:36.405 --> 00:36:36.805 You know? 00:36:36.805 --> 00:36:37.605 It takes some digging. 00:36:37.605 --> 00:36:41.225 And and then of many times, it goes to their childhood. 00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:43.080 You know? 00:36:43.720 --> 00:36:46.220 Expectations or things they learned as a child. 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:51.260 You know, there's something called the, the just world theory. 00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:55.415 You see it with the the cognitive processing therapy. 00:36:55.415 --> 00:36:58.535 I'm taking a class in that right now, and they talk about this just world. 00:36:58.535 --> 00:37:01.975 And the just world is, if I do good things, good things happen to me. 00:37:01.975 --> 00:37:04.135 And if I do bad things, something bad will happen to me. 00:37:04.135 --> 00:37:05.515 And you learn it really young. 00:37:06.390 --> 00:37:14.250 Little Johnny, we're not gonna you're not gonna go outside if you keep acting like that, or you're not gonna get dessert if you don't keep eating your dinner. 00:37:14.710 --> 00:37:15.990 You know, those kind of things. 00:37:15.990 --> 00:37:17.290 And it becomes hardwired. 00:37:18.045 --> 00:37:18.205 Right? 00:37:18.205 --> 00:37:22.465 Well, here I am as an adult and I'm doing something good and, woah, something bad just happened. 00:37:23.485 --> 00:37:25.185 I can't make sense of that. 00:37:25.325 --> 00:37:39.230 George, this is really, really interesting, and I'm wondering, you know, there are probably a lot of people that are gonna listen to this and and they're gonna identify with what you're saying, and they're gonna think, well, you know, I really would like to get, get some help. 00:37:39.290 --> 00:37:39.770 You know? 00:37:39.770 --> 00:37:50.825 And and, if they wanted to contact you, for example, do you have a website or an email address that they could use to to ask you, questions to to communicate with you? 00:37:50.825 --> 00:37:52.185 What would that what would that be? 00:37:52.185 --> 00:37:52.665 Absolutely. 00:37:52.665 --> 00:37:52.905 Yeah. 00:37:52.905 --> 00:37:54.185 And I and I welcome that. 00:37:54.185 --> 00:37:59.065 You know, I I welcome I get emails from people not necessarily seeking treatment all the time. 00:37:59.065 --> 00:38:02.620 I get emails, from a fire depart you know, fire department. 00:38:02.620 --> 00:38:05.420 So will you come here and talk to they have these meetings with their guys. 00:38:05.420 --> 00:38:11.420 Would you come and just talk to one of our groups of guys of what things like PTSD is or something? 00:38:11.420 --> 00:38:13.965 So certainly email is the best way. 00:38:14.125 --> 00:38:15.725 That is the best way to reach me. 00:38:15.725 --> 00:38:17.885 And that's the name of my practice. 00:38:17.885 --> 00:38:20.305 It's called Driftwood Psychotherapy. 00:38:20.605 --> 00:38:21.165 And I don't know. 00:38:21.165 --> 00:38:26.865 I knew Charles father Charles was in the Maryland, you know, the charl Calvert County, Maryland. 00:38:27.250 --> 00:38:31.090 There's a little beach called Driftwood Beach that I've been going to since I was a kid. 00:38:31.090 --> 00:38:32.470 It's like my safe place. 00:38:32.930 --> 00:38:33.170 Mhmm. 00:38:33.170 --> 00:38:42.555 So I want my practice to be, if above all, a safe place where somebody can come in here and they can say whatever they want, feel whatever they want. 00:38:42.555 --> 00:38:48.015 So driftwoodpsychotherapy@gmail.com. 00:38:49.115 --> 00:38:54.330 The website is driftwood psychotherapy l l c dot com. 00:38:54.330 --> 00:38:56.570 And there's a contact me on there also. 00:38:56.570 --> 00:39:01.130 You can go there to the website, click contact me, and you can write whatever you wanna write. 00:39:01.130 --> 00:39:02.570 Nobody sees it but me. 00:39:02.570 --> 00:39:07.290 Tell me, George, you might very soon, Maryland, you're gonna be able to do telehealth in other states. 00:39:07.290 --> 00:39:08.110 Is that right? 00:39:09.495 --> 00:39:09.815 Yes. 00:39:09.815 --> 00:39:11.755 Because of the the it's called the compact. 00:39:11.975 --> 00:39:13.415 And I'm not sure what states. 00:39:13.415 --> 00:39:31.110 I know, like, for example, West Virginia, Florida, they've basically signed a compact that we acknowledge that all of our training and our certification process that you received in Maryland would be equivalent or acceptable here in, say, for example, Florida. 00:39:31.730 --> 00:39:39.065 And this way, we'll open it up with telehealth where it gives a client much more opportunity. 00:39:39.065 --> 00:39:40.285 Now it'd have to be telehealth. 00:39:40.345 --> 00:39:42.365 You can't drive back and forth from Florida. 00:39:42.745 --> 00:39:45.325 But, for example, I work with police officers. 00:39:45.705 --> 00:39:58.040 It would really we'll open it up for a police officer or a firefighter or a correctional officer, dispatcher maybe in one of the compact states that can't find anybody with experience working with that population now has somebody. 00:39:59.300 --> 00:39:59.860 That's great. 00:39:59.860 --> 00:40:07.825 So if anybody out there from different states, you can also, you know, look George up, send him an email, or contact him. 00:40:07.965 --> 00:40:08.205 Yeah. 00:40:08.205 --> 00:40:09.005 They can anyways. 00:40:09.005 --> 00:40:12.525 I'll I'll, you know, I'll I'll help them find somebody in their state. 00:40:12.525 --> 00:40:19.890 If if the the compact is the compact has been approved, now it's working out the finer print that that you have to do. 00:40:19.890 --> 00:40:20.390 Great. 00:40:20.690 --> 00:40:21.430 Thank you. 00:40:22.210 --> 00:40:36.045 Well, George, thank you so much for this very, very interesting episode, and, I'm sure a lot of people are gonna be very, interested to hear your your story, and I'm looking forward to, having you back. 00:40:36.665 --> 00:40:50.900 Another episode, where you talk more about, the the challenges that these first responders face and the and the therapies and the remedies and the advice you you give them, I think that's gonna be very, very helpful. 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:55.940 And, so we will have you back for that, and, look forward to talking with you again soon. 00:40:56.720 --> 00:40:57.040 Yeah. 00:40:57.040 --> 00:40:58.500 I look forward to it anytime. 00:40:59.263 --> 00:41:09.105 And if anyone wants to reach out to me with a question, I'm happy to answer to the best of my ability or maybe help them find somebody who can give them the correct answer.