WEBVTT 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:07.540 In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:12.260 Lord, we thank you for all those who are attending the Newman lecture this evening. 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:15.300 We invoke the Holy Spirit upon each one. 00:00:15.635 --> 00:00:17.715 May he enlighten and strengthen them. 00:00:17.715 --> 00:00:21.575 May he open their hearts to his inspirations through this evening's presentation. 00:00:22.115 --> 00:00:27.015 We invoke the presence of his Holy Spirit upon each one of us. 00:00:28.080 --> 00:00:30.260 May he enlighten and strengthen us. 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:35.140 May he open our hearts to his inspirations through this evening's presentation. 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:42.980 We also thank you, Lord, for the gift of doctor Paul Vitz, his wife, Timmy, and their whole family. 00:00:43.835 --> 00:00:50.015 We are grateful for all the good they have done and continue to do in the lives of each person they touch. 00:00:51.435 --> 00:01:09.760 Finally, we thank you, Lord, for the gift of doctor Vitz's life work for the many people his books and teaching have helped, guided, and inspired through the course of the years, for the impact his work has had on the present direction of psychology and the future horizons that it opens. 00:01:11.045 --> 00:01:23.305 May you continue to bless our speaker, doctor Kugelman, along with doctor Vitz, Timmy, their family, and all of us here participating this conference at the end of this liturgical year and for years to come. 00:01:23.925 --> 00:01:24.425 Amen. 00:01:29.510 --> 00:01:34.650 Now I would like to turn it over to doctor Rebecca Morse who will give an introduction to our speaker. 00:01:37.285 --> 00:01:38.105 Hello, everyone. 00:01:38.565 --> 00:01:40.005 Thank you for joining us. 00:01:40.325 --> 00:01:45.225 We are so honored to welcome doctor Kugelman to Divine Mercy University again. 00:01:45.605 --> 00:01:57.790 Doctor Kugelman is currently at the University of Dallas where he's been on faculty since 1977 in various positions and roles and culminating in the esteemed role of professor emeritus. 00:01:58.330 --> 00:02:11.805 He's an active member in numerous professional organizations, including around the International Society for the History of the Behavioral and Social Sciences, which is where I first learned of doctor Kugelman's work. 00:02:12.345 --> 00:02:31.370 He serves in several editorial and peer reviewer capacities for many highly competitive journals and also for well established publishers such as Rutledge and Springer, and most notably for many of our faculty and students here at DMU. 00:02:32.145 --> 00:02:39.925 He is the recently established co editor of Integratus, the Journal of Catholic Psychotherapy Association. 00:02:40.865 --> 00:02:47.780 He's written five books, including the upcoming twenty twenty three, The Soul and Soulless Psychology. 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:55.220 And he has published 82 articles and reviews and innumerable presentations. 00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:00.820 And we are just absolutely delighted to have you with us, doctor Kogelman, and we thank you all. 00:03:02.775 --> 00:03:03.515 Thank you. 00:03:03.655 --> 00:03:07.815 Hello to everyone who has zoomed into this talk from wherever you are. 00:03:07.815 --> 00:03:08.935 Thank you for being here. 00:03:08.935 --> 00:03:10.315 I appreciate it very much. 00:03:10.775 --> 00:03:18.730 I'm grateful to doctor Craig Titus for the faculty and administration of Divine Mercy University for this opportunity. 00:03:19.110 --> 00:03:30.145 It is an honor and a privilege to address a few of the contributions that doctor Paul Vitz has made to psychology and its intersections with religion, philosophy, and theology. 00:03:30.845 --> 00:03:32.865 Thank you, Paul, for all you have done. 00:03:33.405 --> 00:03:38.065 I've heard you lecture many times over the past two decades, and I've read some of your publications. 00:03:38.445 --> 00:03:44.370 It has been an interesting journey in preparing this talk, hoping to contribute to the work you have been doing. 00:03:46.510 --> 00:03:54.210 At the beginning, let me tell you my conclusions that I that I I was working on this talk. 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:57.010 I owe these insights to Paul. 00:03:57.605 --> 00:04:05.865 He has been engaged in the work of integration of psychology and Christian thought for decades, and these thoughts emerge as I read and consider what he has to say. 00:04:06.725 --> 00:04:13.225 My first conclusion, the psychology to which Paul has contributed leads back to the soul. 00:04:13.980 --> 00:04:18.960 Soul is the third thing between psychology and religion, uniting and dividing them. 00:04:19.340 --> 00:04:23.360 Paul is now writing about the soul, and the soul takes us beyond the self. 00:04:24.460 --> 00:04:25.360 Second conclusion. 00:04:26.305 --> 00:04:32.805 Psychology has a religious unconscious to borrow from the name of Paul's book, Sigmund Freud's Christian unconscious. 00:04:33.585 --> 00:04:36.645 Psychology has never been unintegrated with religion. 00:04:37.345 --> 00:04:41.800 Following Graham Richards as well here, this proposition could be rephrased. 00:04:42.580 --> 00:04:44.520 Psychology is entangled with religion. 00:04:44.980 --> 00:04:47.320 You could express the relationship like this. 00:04:47.940 --> 00:04:50.360 Psychology is in some ways like religion. 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:53.960 It is also true that psychology is not like religion. 00:04:57.205 --> 00:05:05.545 In other words, in going about the work of integration or disentanglement, we are not dealing with opposites or with two fields that are mutually exclusive. 00:05:06.325 --> 00:05:08.585 We enter a play of identity and difference. 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:12.230 This is too abstract, so when the time comes, I'll contextualize it. 00:05:12.850 --> 00:05:13.670 Third conclusion. 00:05:14.610 --> 00:05:16.870 There is a truth in self worship. 00:05:17.330 --> 00:05:21.030 It's not simply an error like saying two plus two equals five. 00:05:21.555 --> 00:05:23.975 The worship of self is a result of a misrecognition. 00:05:24.995 --> 00:05:33.335 The cult of self worship arises from a confusion between myself and the Imago Dei, the image of God, at the center of myself. 00:05:34.280 --> 00:05:39.580 I develop I will develop these conclusions, but I wanted to wanted you all to be aware of where we are going. 00:05:40.200 --> 00:05:41.340 Next slide, please. 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:46.460 What do we mean by psychology? 00:05:47.705 --> 00:05:57.965 Doctor Vitz has contributed significantly to the integrating Catholic thought with contemporary psychologists starting with his book psychology as religion, the cult of self worship. 00:05:58.665 --> 00:06:14.610 He's been walking on dangerous ground in his quest for Christian psychology since it is precisely those approaches in psychology that he saw as attempting to replace Christianity with psychology, nevertheless promised to open nevertheless promised to open to Christian thought. 00:06:15.085 --> 00:06:21.185 Just to be clear, when I speak about psychology, I mean psychotherapy and theory and practice. 00:06:21.805 --> 00:06:33.190 That is psychology as we are considering it here is that psychology that addresses the stresses, sufferings, pathologies, torments, and the pains of living, loving, and working. 00:06:34.210 --> 00:06:45.885 It shares the ground with religion, in particular Christianity, which in its care for souls seeks to heal us in this veil of tears, this dark valley, this fallen world. 00:06:47.225 --> 00:06:59.590 Unfortunately, because both psychology and pastoral care tend to many of the say many of the ways we suffer, some people conclude that they do not need religion because psychology addresses our sufferings. 00:06:59.890 --> 00:07:03.910 Others conclude that they do not need psychology because religion will suffice. 00:07:05.265 --> 00:07:17.445 Paul in this book took aim at humanistic self theories that can be hostile to religion and can present psychology as the only way to find meaning in life now that religion no longer is relevant. 00:07:18.470 --> 00:07:27.210 He singled out Carl Jung, Eric Fromm, Carl Rogers, Abraham Maslow, and Ralo May as formulators of this cult of the self. 00:07:28.070 --> 00:07:32.330 Their self theories promoted a secular search for self fulfillment and self actualization. 00:07:33.715 --> 00:07:41.655 For many humanistic psychologists, there is little concern for explicitly religious meanings of self that is fulfilled or actualized. 00:07:42.835 --> 00:07:47.415 This contends moreover that there's animosity towards religion among the humans. 00:07:48.980 --> 00:07:55.480 The pursuit of self actualization reaches beyond psychology and flourishes in self help and popular psychology. 00:07:57.380 --> 00:08:02.360 Paul points out that the boundaries between theory and popularization are vague with the humans. 00:08:03.245 --> 00:08:07.585 The topic of popularization of self theory is a thorny one. 00:08:08.445 --> 00:08:13.345 The life world does not passively and whole hog assimilate scientific concepts. 00:08:14.205 --> 00:08:29.160 Social representation theory shows that they are selectively absorbed so that while the concepts may change everyday understandings of things like guilt and anxiety, the concepts themselves are changed by incorporation into a life world. 00:08:29.700 --> 00:08:41.255 For example, French Catholics in the post World War two period took up psychoanalysis in a positive manner because it attempted to resolve conflicts among family members. 00:08:42.035 --> 00:08:46.135 French Catholics at the same time completely ignored libido theory. 00:08:49.070 --> 00:09:04.685 So so with the humanistic psychologist, everyday thinking took up self fulfillment but completely missed the boat on innocence, which is still a besetting defect in our national character despite warnings about it from Marlon May and others. 00:09:05.625 --> 00:09:11.885 However, it is true that Carl Rogers reinforced our presumption of innocence in the face of evil. 00:09:12.905 --> 00:09:20.250 This is analysis of the various forms of self worship or cult or of cultural narcissism is an important contribution. 00:09:21.510 --> 00:09:31.370 What we find are legitimate legitimations that cultivate modern certainties such as self esteem, self fulfillment, and universal victimhood. 00:09:32.895 --> 00:09:39.155 All shows that these popular psychologies arise in a society devoted to the golden calf or the almighty dollar. 00:09:40.095 --> 00:09:41.235 Next slide, please. 00:09:45.310 --> 00:09:49.170 My aim in this lecture is to locate Wits' thought in the history of psychology. 00:09:49.870 --> 00:09:54.530 I will deal primarily with psychology as religion cult cult of self worship. 00:09:56.270 --> 00:10:02.055 Psychology as religion is a defense of Christian psychology, a polemic as some reviewers claimed. 00:10:02.755 --> 00:10:11.175 This book presents a sophisticated self psychology that dialectically relates to the humanistic self psychologies identified at the beginning of the book. 00:10:12.370 --> 00:10:29.045 Locating this work in the history of psychology of the self leads us to earlier self psychologists, especially William James, Mary Witten Calkins, Harry Emerson Fosdick, Carl Jung, Gordon Allport, and Ronald May. 00:10:29.905 --> 00:10:42.510 And Paul Viss, Paul's critique of humanistic self psychology serves the end of separating it from some of its philosophical and social presuppositions and reformulating it in Christian terms. 00:10:44.410 --> 00:10:46.350 All is in good company in this endeavor. 00:10:47.610 --> 00:11:04.175 Back in the eighteen nineties, Edward Aloysius Pace, a priest and a psychologist, fresh with a PhD in psychology from Wilhelm Wundt Wundt in Leipzig, became a professor of philosophy at the newly founded Catholic University of America. 00:11:05.930 --> 00:11:11.230 There was at the time much fewer in Catholic circles over this new experimental psychology. 00:11:12.250 --> 00:11:15.710 Two things were wrong with the new psychology according to the some Catholics. 00:11:16.250 --> 00:11:17.390 First, it was experimental. 00:11:19.705 --> 00:11:24.925 Psychologists study topics such as reaction time, sensory threshold, and span of attention. 00:11:25.625 --> 00:11:26.925 Some Catholics objected. 00:11:27.305 --> 00:11:29.405 How can the soul be studied in the laboratory? 00:11:30.680 --> 00:11:33.900 The soul is our substantial form, not a sensory object. 00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:40.060 Second, and even worse, this new psychology was a psychology without a soul. 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:48.265 Advocates of a soul soulless psychology know that psychological science must distance itself from metaphysics. 00:11:49.685 --> 00:12:04.050 The soul was a relic of prescientific metaphysical thinking on the part with alchemy, which was chemistry with spiritual entities, and with astrology, which was astronomy with occult forces and powers. 00:12:05.630 --> 00:12:07.570 Pace countered both criticisms. 00:12:08.510 --> 00:12:14.165 A Thomistic thinker, he held that human beings were composed of soul and body. 00:12:14.945 --> 00:12:23.765 He was not a Cartesian thinker, so he did not identify the soul with consciousness, and he certainly did not think that the body could function without the soul. 00:12:25.490 --> 00:12:35.990 Pei saw nothing wrong with experimental psychology since such research is grounded in sense perception and a result of investigation is always a particular, not a universal. 00:12:37.165 --> 00:12:39.825 Experimental psychology does not study the soul. 00:12:39.965 --> 00:12:44.305 It studies sensation, sense memory, problem solving, and the like. 00:12:45.245 --> 00:12:56.750 Observers as observers as the subjects of experimental psychology are often call often called were rational beings with free will, and they voluntarily participated in these studies. 00:12:57.610 --> 00:13:05.230 Often, graduate students and their professor would take turns in the different roles in experimentation as the observer and as the researcher. 00:13:06.035 --> 00:13:09.335 In early reports, the names of the observers would be given. 00:13:09.875 --> 00:13:13.095 The soul was present then, but it was not the object of study. 00:13:14.675 --> 00:13:21.575 Where psychology made a mess of things according to PACE was in interpreting their findings in terms of psychology without a soul. 00:13:22.170 --> 00:13:32.510 Repaced, Thomas better get involved in experimental psychology or the materialist would hold the field, showing how experimentation supported their erroneous presuppositions. 00:13:35.065 --> 00:13:37.965 Bates in the nineteen seventies faced a similar situation. 00:13:38.905 --> 00:13:46.365 If the self is left to the selfless, their work will poison the well of the way we understand who and what we are. 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:57.140 These self psychologists do not under do not acknowledge the Christian claim that our relationship with the transcendent God orders our living. 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:07.415 This wrote, quote, an overwhelming number of selfist assume there are no in unvarying moral or interpersonal relationships. 00:14:08.595 --> 00:14:10.695 No permanent aspects to individual. 00:14:11.715 --> 00:14:19.670 The tendency is to give a green light to any self defined goal that is undoubtedly one of the major field of selfism. 00:14:21.490 --> 00:14:24.710 In response, Wits has developed a Christian self psychology. 00:14:26.530 --> 00:14:32.985 Psychology as religion, like much of his work, belongs to a tradition of explicitly Christian and Catholic psychology. 00:14:34.565 --> 00:14:43.065 While there was much Christian psychology in the twentieth century, it is also true that Christian psychology predates the rise of modern experimental psychology. 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:53.960 It's customary to say that modern psychology begins around 1860 with the publication of Fechner's Elements of Psychophysics. 00:14:55.780 --> 00:14:59.640 It is worth noting that Fechner's psychophysics was itself entangled with religion. 00:15:00.615 --> 00:15:08.795 And in the eighteen eighties, psychotherapy began with scientific recognition of hypnosis by Jean Martin Charcot. 00:15:10.055 --> 00:15:18.420 Our popular psychology began in the nineteenth century with Samuel Smiles' book, Self Help, published in 1859. 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.340 When did Christian psychology begin? 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:28.420 It depends on what you mean by psychology, or we can take the long view with Daniel Robinson. 00:15:29.265 --> 00:16:09.045 It began with Augustine's introspection and with his Trinitarian analysis of the soul, with Aquinas and other scholastics and their analysis of the soul in relationship with the body, with Descartes, the cogito, and the idea of the infinite, with various sciences of the soul from the sixteenth to eighteenth century, in the contemporary era with Desiree Mercier in Louvain, Thomas Werner Moore in Washington, Magda Arnold in Chicago, Rudolph Auerz in a number of places, not to mention others discussed by Miesiak and Stout in their 1954 book, Catholics in Psychology. 00:16:10.550 --> 00:16:29.065 Contributions have continued since then, including Adrian von Combs, the art of existential counseling 1966, and Charles a Curran, religious values in counseling and psychotherapy '18 1969, and Peter Tyler, the pursuit of the soul, 2016. 00:16:30.245 --> 00:16:35.225 There is, in fact, a mighty stream of Catholic contributions to psychology over the century. 00:16:35.605 --> 00:16:44.790 And if this is not widely known, it's probably because a positivist approach has infected the history of psychology as as it is taught. 00:16:46.450 --> 00:16:52.310 Moreover, non Catholic Christian contributions to psychology were the past century and more abound. 00:16:54.465 --> 00:17:08.690 Mitz's Christian self psychology belongs to an important tradition in American psychology, one that I would call James again after William James, who promoted scientific psychology, pragmatic philosophy, and pluralistic theology. 00:17:09.870 --> 00:17:17.890 This tradition does not hold to James's conclusions, but it does hold with the range of his considerations for understanding the self. 00:17:19.135 --> 00:17:20.195 Next slide, please. 00:17:28.335 --> 00:17:36.420 To grasp the significance of psychology as religion as a self psychology, I propose to identify its formal cause. 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:43.060 Formal causality asks about the essential quality of a thing, the soul of a thing. 00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:45.300 What makes the thing what it is? 00:17:46.515 --> 00:17:50.135 In an important sense, here we ask about the soul of the book. 00:17:50.995 --> 00:17:54.055 Formal causality is the tricky one of the four causes. 00:17:54.995 --> 00:18:02.490 To get to the essence of a piece of writing, Marshall McLuhan and Eric McLuhan argue, you must discover its readership. 00:18:03.270 --> 00:18:05.130 To whom is the writing addressed? 00:18:06.310 --> 00:18:18.365 Psychology as religion had a broad readership in mind, quote, the reader interested in a critique of contemporary psychology, Paul wrote, but it primarily addressed Christian readership. 00:18:19.385 --> 00:18:31.085 The reader is involved repeatedly as when this wrote, quote, in addition to the development of an intellectual critique of secularism, Christian political response is hopeful, unquote. 00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:47.505 This political response would be, quote, the quiet but persistent, immediate but long term withdrawal of support from the anti Christian activities of the modern state, whether these emerge from the left, the right, or the middle of the road, unquote. 00:18:48.765 --> 00:18:51.345 The book then addressed a Christian community. 00:18:51.965 --> 00:19:10.970 He extended a hand to non Christians as well centered on individuals who share his view that, quote, there is a worldwide fundamental conflict between Christianity and the modern state, a conflict which has little to do with whether the state espouses a leftist or rightist political philosophy, unquote. 00:19:12.625 --> 00:19:25.925 If identifying the readership means to identify the formal cause of the book, then the essence of psychology as religion is a Christian critique of modern psychology as the servant of the modern state. 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:33.920 Committed to nothing but economic growth, develop, integration will have to continue to grapple with that essence. 00:19:39.845 --> 00:19:51.225 The book shows the diffusion of selfless psychology throughout our society and lifestyles of self indulgence that the presuppositions that endless economic growth is good and courageous. 00:19:52.340 --> 00:20:01.640 Indeed, this warns us that we, the citizens of the wealthy nations, are heading for disaster, and our psychology only fuels the fires of our undoing. 00:20:03.460 --> 00:20:10.935 Since selfism posits no value except self indulgence, it offers no basis for opposing political and economic oppression. 00:20:11.715 --> 00:20:19.335 This wrote, quote, there's no reason intrinsic to self psych self theory that it should be associated with liberal humanist values. 00:20:20.600 --> 00:20:26.220 Witt's argument highlights that what is at stake in the development of science of human subjectivity. 00:20:29.080 --> 00:20:43.875 The intensity of the book arose in part from Witt's light as he told his readers at the beginning of the book, Quote, by 1968 or so, I would no longer teach graduate or undergraduate courses that required me to cover the self theorist. 00:20:44.815 --> 00:21:07.885 Becoming a Christian provided me dramatically different view of psychology in spite of in spite of my rejection of self theory, large parts of me remain which are still thoroughly indoctrinated with it. 00:21:08.425 --> 00:21:16.285 Particularly difficult are religious ideas like penitence, humility, accepting my dependence on God, praying for help. 00:21:16.660 --> 00:21:18.280 Here, he pleaded with the reader. 00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:23.000 Please, I would like to hear something that would improve my odds of obtaining salvation. 00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:27.320 Psychology as religion is a personal document. 00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:30.840 Such documents are not rare in the history of psychology. 00:21:31.545 --> 00:21:37.645 Indeed, Jung wrote that every psychology is in part a subjective confession of the author. 00:21:38.985 --> 00:21:42.365 In other words, any exploration of the psyche has a personal component. 00:21:43.225 --> 00:21:50.380 The self explorations of Freud and Jung are examples how psychological theory has roots in the life of a psychologist. 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.020 So too is psychology as religion. 00:21:53.320 --> 00:22:01.020 It is rooted in false conversion and a sense of where our world is going, a sense that we are living in a time of crisis. 00:22:02.025 --> 00:22:04.525 The waning of the modern age has begun, he wrote. 00:22:06.345 --> 00:22:17.405 Signs of the end of the modern age are, quote, the growing suspicion of science, technology, business, and government that is suspicion of objectification and the systems based upon. 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:19.220 Next slide, please. 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:32.980 Psychologies of the self are relational because the self always implies another with whom I interact. 00:22:34.585 --> 00:22:38.925 Philosophical antecedents of self psychology are in John Locke and David Hume. 00:22:40.585 --> 00:22:45.085 Hume found nothing in his search in his own soul. 00:22:46.840 --> 00:22:52.460 In American psychology, we can start with William James who formulated an influential psychology of the self. 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:58.540 James differentiated the material cell, the social cell, and the spiritual cell. 00:22:59.965 --> 00:23:05.905 Material self includes one's own body, possessions, family, indeed anything I can call my own. 00:23:07.565 --> 00:23:14.960 The spiritual self, the self of selves, consists of one's mental abilities taken objectively. 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:21.760 The spiritual self is felt directly in acts of paying attention, for example. 00:23:22.300 --> 00:23:28.085 It is the social self, however, that is essential for the history of self psychology we are pursuing. 00:23:28.945 --> 00:23:33.365 For James, social self is the recognition we get from others. 00:23:33.425 --> 00:23:34.245 He wrote this. 00:23:35.825 --> 00:23:40.885 A man has as many social selves as there are individuals who recognize him. 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:47.500 From this, there results what practically is a division of the man into several selves. 00:23:48.040 --> 00:24:02.685 This may be a discordance splitting as one as where one is afraid to let one's one set of one of his acquaintances know him as he is elsewhere, or it may be a perfectly harmonious division of labor. 00:24:04.425 --> 00:24:11.900 These three selves are me, and different from them all is the I, the knower, subjectivity proper. 00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:29.865 This follows James in claiming that the, quote, objective validity of the cell as rooted in the body has been ignored even as they have shown how the social self develops in a cultural and historical context. 00:24:30.965 --> 00:24:38.950 James kept the body at the center of the stream of consciousness so that his self psychology did not blow around in the cultural winds ungrounded. 00:24:40.930 --> 00:24:49.045 James' self psychology had a religious dimension in our relationship with what he called the ideal or potential social self. 00:24:49.585 --> 00:25:08.390 And he wrote this, when for motives of honor and conscience, I braved the condemnation of my own family, club, and set, when as a Protestant, I turned Catholic, as a Catholic and free thinker, I'm always inwardly strengthened in the in my course, instilled against the loss of my actual social self. 00:25:09.090 --> 00:25:21.005 The emotion that beckons me on is in dutifully the pursuit of an ideal social self or the self that is at least worthy of approving recognition by the highest possible judging companion. 00:25:21.705 --> 00:25:26.285 This self is the true, the intimate, the ultimate, the permanent me which I see. 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.100 This judges god, the absolute mind, the great. 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:38.100 It's a fundamental characteristic of Jamie and self psychology, and there's always a religious dimension to it. 00:25:39.005 --> 00:25:50.145 James' psychology with his philosophical, theological, and scientific fringes established a strong tradition in American society in American psychology to which Mitch's psychology belongs. 00:25:53.980 --> 00:26:01.280 Mary Whitten Calkins, an early American experimentalist and philosophical psychologist, was a student of William James. 00:26:02.460 --> 00:26:24.120 Phyllis Wentworth writes, over the course of three decades, from the turn of the century to the late nineteen twenties, Hawkins articulated and defended a system of self psychology that held that psychology as a field to be organized as a science of the self. 00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:33.825 For Conkins, a self psychology was important because it retained moral and religious consciousness in psychology. 00:26:35.885 --> 00:26:49.480 Moreover, Calkins' self psychology sprang from, in quote, interest not in the study of cells in isolation, but in the study of cells living in knowledge of their interconnectedness to other human beings, through a divine being, or both. 00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:57.720 So that, like James, found that self psychology necessitated a religious dimension in their social resistance. 00:26:59.325 --> 00:27:08.545 Myths himself includes the work of Henry excuse me, Harry Emerson Fosdick, a liberal protestant theologian, in his history of self psychology. 00:27:09.485 --> 00:27:18.950 Fosdick taught at the Union Theological Seminary where his work contributed to a psychologized religious culture in the nineteen thirties. 00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:25.830 Later, this seminary became a center for post World War two emergence of the growth movement. 00:27:27.025 --> 00:27:43.820 Following Vitz's lead, I include Fosdick in this genealogy of self psychology because as Vitz noted, these ideas about the self were popular in liberal Christian context before being widely published in the purely secular literature of psychology. 00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:55.420 The psychology of religion that Paul examined in his book then began with religion and psychology in the decades before humanistic psychology emerged. 00:27:57.085 --> 00:28:00.705 Fosdick was a modernist, and his opponents were the fundamentalist. 00:28:01.885 --> 00:28:05.505 Fosdick, however, saw a significant flaw in modernism. 00:28:06.285 --> 00:28:08.865 And he wrote in 1926. 00:28:10.560 --> 00:28:15.140 Many a liberal preacher is so anxious to be rational that he forgets to be religious. 00:28:15.760 --> 00:28:21.060 Religion is not created, saved, or propagated by the rationality of its thought forms. 00:28:21.885 --> 00:28:23.425 Much as that ought to help. 00:28:23.885 --> 00:28:33.105 Religion central and unique property is power to release faith and courage for living, to produce spiritual vitality and fruitfulness. 00:28:33.725 --> 00:28:46.520 And by that, it ultimately stands To cap to recapture that religious property, courage for living, Fosdick looked to psychology and developed a self theory. 00:28:47.620 --> 00:28:50.900 For Fosdick, personality lay at the heart of the gospel. 00:28:50.900 --> 00:28:51.800 He wrote this. 00:28:54.325 --> 00:29:02.185 Jesus's attitude towards human personality can be briefly described as always seeing people in terms of their possibilities. 00:29:03.125 --> 00:29:06.665 He habitually looked at men in terms of what they might become. 00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:13.520 We often do that with children, but the marvel of the master was that he did it with the most unlikely people. 00:29:14.060 --> 00:29:23.985 He saw prodigals in far country countries, women taken in adultery, and thought of them in terms of their moral possibilities, unquote. 00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:40.380 Indeed, Vosnik claimed that Christ's, quote, estimate of human personality, divine origin, spiritual nature, supreme value, its boundless possibilities has been rightly called his most original contribution to human thought. 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:57.945 Fosdick's 1943 book on being a real person developed this thought, and Vitz observed that, quote, much of his theory of personality is difficult to distinguish from those of today's psychological self theorists, especially Rogers. 00:29:59.445 --> 00:30:04.750 Hence, the need for self acceptance and self love so that one can become a real self. 00:30:05.210 --> 00:30:11.870 Self acceptance in the face of societal demands to be certain type of self is a hallmark of humanistic self psychology. 00:30:15.545 --> 00:30:22.285 Fosdick got to the core of psychologized religion in his stress on the wholeness of personality as a goal in life. 00:30:22.825 --> 00:30:24.365 And this is Fosdick again. 00:30:25.065 --> 00:30:32.040 In modern psychological parlance, the word integration has taken the place of the religious word salvation. 00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:41.240 No disorganized personality can be put into any situation so fortunate that by itself, it will make him happy. 00:30:42.005 --> 00:30:51.065 While a well organized personality and in confront with astonishingly satisfying results, conditions that at first seem insurmountable. 00:30:53.685 --> 00:31:05.200 Fosdick explained that quote process of the process of organization essential to personal wholeness always involves two elements, discrimination and renunciation. 00:31:06.620 --> 00:31:14.585 Discrimination means that we must commit ourselves to values and aims that we deem supremely worthwhile pursuing. 00:31:15.285 --> 00:31:18.025 Renunciation means saying no to its contradiction. 00:31:19.925 --> 00:31:23.625 Both of these elements take positive faith to begin with. 00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:31.620 Bostic developed his own formulation of self psychology, which contributed to the humanistic psychology movements of mid century. 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:34.340 Let me digress for a moment. 00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:44.905 This observation that ideas about the self developed in religion before being developed in psychology as we see in Fosdek is really important. 00:31:45.685 --> 00:32:02.000 It happened too earlier in the Emmanuel movement of the first decade of the twentieth century when two Episcopal priests, Elwood Worcester and Samuel McComb combined hypnosis, suggestion, and education with pastoral care of souls and called it psychotherapy. 00:32:03.580 --> 00:32:09.495 Moreover, historical roots of psychoanalysis are in confessional practices of the church. 00:32:10.675 --> 00:32:18.215 Recall also that some forms of psychoanalysis have been declared heretical by others, which can claim themselves to be orthodox. 00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:23.880 Psychologists around the turn of the twentieth century borrowed spiritualist practices. 00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:29.800 A more recent example of this kind of borrowing from religion is in mindfulness. 00:32:33.025 --> 00:32:35.925 These occurrences point to a big issue. 00:32:36.545 --> 00:32:42.485 The integration of psychology and religious traditions is not the bringing together of two unrelated things. 00:32:43.025 --> 00:32:46.485 In its history, psychologies have religious elements. 00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:50.340 Purely secular psychology is not purely secular. 00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:56.500 Borrowing from Vitz's later book, it may be that psychology has a Christian unconscious. 00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:05.305 The work of integration goes on all of the time because psychology and religion are related dialectically, not dichotomously. 00:33:06.645 --> 00:33:10.425 Mitch's discussion of the new age movement is another case in point. 00:33:11.685 --> 00:33:23.760 Following Jean Taylor, the new age movement is an example of a shadow culture in American society, a mix of psychological, spiritual, and esoteric healing practices. 00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:29.920 It is a potent, if diffuse, integration or entanglement of psychology and religion. 00:33:31.925 --> 00:33:43.385 Carl Jung, who was called, quote, the originator of much self therapy self, excuse me, self psychology, developed a psychology that is as religious as it is scientific. 00:33:45.220 --> 00:33:57.080 Mistakenly understood as a breakaway follower of Freud, Jung was closer to William James and Theodore Theodore Flournoy who stressed the creative activity of the unconscious. 00:33:58.405 --> 00:34:00.185 James studied the working of mediums. 00:34:01.045 --> 00:34:07.705 Flournoy and Jung also studied mediumship and the upsurge of mythic forms in dreams and symptoms. 00:34:09.125 --> 00:34:16.860 Jung developed the concept of the self with a capital s, but that self is not the self of popular self psychology. 00:34:17.720 --> 00:34:30.625 In Jung's term, pop self psychology indulges the ego, our conscious sense of ourselves, not the self, which is the archetype of psychic wholeness, the symbols of which include us. 00:34:31.725 --> 00:34:42.840 There is a gnostic element in Jung's work, but it is also true that there are Christian and the Catholic varieties of Jung's analytical psychology that are not egocentric or. 00:34:43.060 --> 00:34:44.680 For example, Vera von derma. 00:34:46.660 --> 00:34:50.600 Gordon Allport made significant contribution to self psychology. 00:34:52.900 --> 00:35:00.585 This noted that Fosdick cited Allport's work, which supported Fosdick's emphasis on becoming and self realization. 00:35:02.245 --> 00:35:07.385 Allport, in his 1955 book, Becoming, developed a theory of the self. 00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:21.320 Alport introduced the term proprium to denote, quote, all the regions of our life that we regard as particularly ours and that make for inward unity. 00:35:22.345 --> 00:35:29.565 With the proprium comes appropriate striving, which, quote, distinguishes itself from other forms of motivation. 00:35:30.025 --> 00:35:36.365 In that, however, in that, however, beset by conflicts, makes for unification of personality. 00:35:37.740 --> 00:35:47.120 Appropriate striving includes the pursuit of long range goals regarded as central to one's personal existence, and it always has a future reference. 00:35:48.860 --> 00:35:51.040 Crucial to appropriate striving is. 00:35:52.585 --> 00:36:12.420 Rejecting the psychoanalytic view that religion if the religion of of adults is a prolongation of infantile religion, Allport viewed mature religion as a, quote, comprehensive attitude whose function it is to relate the individual meaningful to the whole of being. 00:36:13.600 --> 00:36:23.605 Allport was also a scientific psychologist, and he noted that, quote, as a science, psychology can neither prove or disprove religion's claim to truth. 00:36:24.145 --> 00:36:28.885 It can, however, help explain why these claims are so many and so diverse. 00:36:30.545 --> 00:36:36.330 They represent the final means achieved by unique personalities, in diverse lands and times, I quote. 00:36:38.710 --> 00:36:43.690 Moreover, religion can show us the goal of self of the self's becoming. 00:36:44.070 --> 00:36:57.395 Or a person is a self assertive, self critical, and self improving individual whose passion for integrity and for meaningful relation to the whole of being is his most distinctive capacity. 00:36:58.415 --> 00:37:08.420 Allport is known for his psychology of personality, and personality was important to Allport because it alluded to the soul, through religion, through the wholeness of life. 00:37:09.120 --> 00:37:14.420 Allport's psychology is incomprehensible without an appreciation of his Christian faith. 00:37:15.525 --> 00:37:25.705 Finally, there was Ronald May, a Jamesian psychologist of the second half of the twentieth century, a student of Fosdick and of Paul Tillich, a great Protestant theologian. 00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:33.160 May's chief contribution was the introduction of European existential psychology to North Americans. 00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:45.125 During his youth, when liberal Protestant had developed a psychological perspective, May got involved in counseling, which seemed a natural extension of his religious vocation. 00:37:46.385 --> 00:37:53.365 At that time, May, quote, emphasized the development of the individual personality along the lines of FASDA. 00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.420 May even worked as a pastor in the nineteen thirties. 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:06.180 While later in his life, he would distance himself in Christianity, his emphasis on personality development continued. 00:38:06.765 --> 00:38:14.705 Self actualization, understood in psychological terms, has roots in liberal protestant thought and through it in American society. 00:38:15.645 --> 00:38:19.425 May psychology owes a great debt to this version of Christianity. 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.140 May sound in a Jamesian note by emphasizing the will. 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:36.565 By will, he did not mean willfulness or will power, but decision and commitment is vital to the unfolding of an individual. 00:38:38.145 --> 00:38:47.125 For me, the work of psychotherapy centers, quote, upon the existing person and emphasizes the human being as he is emerging, becoming. 00:38:48.080 --> 00:38:52.420 Becoming is not, however, postmodern anti essentialism. 00:38:53.520 --> 00:39:06.745 In fact, they warned that when folk when therapy focuses on adjustment, it adjusts us to a society that is dehumanizing so that we are, quote, happy at the price of loss of being. 00:39:08.645 --> 00:39:23.220 Significantly, in an essay, psychology and the demonic, not demonic, May wrote, I define demonic as any natural function in the individual that has the power of taking over the whole person. 00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:29.060 Sex and eros, anger and rage, and the craving for power are examples. 00:39:30.825 --> 00:39:34.685 The demonic can be either destructive or creative, unquote. 00:39:35.785 --> 00:39:39.725 The demonic needs direction, hence the importance of consciousness. 00:39:40.505 --> 00:39:48.700 May criticized Carl Rogers for his denial of the demonic, making May a fellow traveler on the path that Paul Vicks walked. 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:57.260 May concluded his essay on the demonic with language that, while superficially secular, resonated with the Christian tradition. 00:39:58.085 --> 00:40:03.305 Passage illustrates the weaving together of the religious, the psychological, and self psychology. 00:40:04.965 --> 00:40:10.185 May wrote, quote, demonic in an individual pushes him towards the logos. 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:21.100 That is to say, the more I come to terms with my demonic tendencies, the more I will find myself conceiving, living by a more universal structure of reality. 00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:26.305 This logos in this way is transpersonal. 00:40:27.325 --> 00:40:32.205 This, like May, came to stress the postmodern self the transmodern self excuse me. 00:40:32.205 --> 00:40:34.305 The transmodern self as the way forward. 00:40:35.165 --> 00:40:36.225 Next slide, please. 00:40:44.190 --> 00:40:53.345 One characteristic of this Jamesian self psychology we have been tracing is this critique of modern society and psychology is dehumanizing. 00:40:55.885 --> 00:41:00.625 In this, this takes the form as defense of Christianity in the face of a secularizing society. 00:41:01.885 --> 00:41:04.465 But there is also his critique of economic self. 00:41:06.240 --> 00:41:16.260 Even though some, like May, warned us about the dehumanizing characteristics of modern society, some brands of crisp of humanistic psychologists succumb to human consumerism. 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:17.380 Right? 00:41:19.185 --> 00:41:29.365 Quote, the consumer society combined with natural human pride has created a psychology that is focused on the glorification of his or her own self. 00:41:31.120 --> 00:41:32.500 Here we get to the heart. 00:41:32.640 --> 00:41:37.300 In one sense, we should glorify the self is if it is properly understood. 00:41:38.080 --> 00:41:40.740 Human self is made in the image and likeness of god. 00:41:41.120 --> 00:41:46.535 So to see oneself as it is is to see reflected the glory of the creator. 00:41:48.115 --> 00:41:51.335 Instead, we worship the golden cow of consumerism. 00:41:52.435 --> 00:42:08.160 And in what we could call with Lacan and Macron and Sons, a misrecognition, we look in the mirror of consumer economy consumerist economy and see ourselves flattered and pampered as little gods who can demand anything and anyone. 00:42:09.545 --> 00:42:14.845 Instead of beholding the with them, we find the ego and confuse the two. 00:42:16.345 --> 00:42:24.920 Psychotherapy, after all, is a social institution, an economic one at that, and so tempted by and so tempted by consumerism. 00:42:26.500 --> 00:42:42.745 C b MacPherson called the kind of self that developed in the modern age, the possessive individual, a person who owns his or herself and only establishes contractual relations with others. 00:42:43.925 --> 00:42:52.345 Possessive individualism runs a mock in society, though having a population devoted to self fulfillment is economic good news. 00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:59.700 It gives credence to Bernard Mandeville's eighteenth century maxim that private vice is public virtue. 00:43:01.680 --> 00:43:05.460 Unexamined biases are a danger of a set for a self psychology. 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:09.395 Economic presuppositions may be the most important. 00:43:10.095 --> 00:43:19.155 My reference to Mandeville's book, the fable of the bees, was to indicate that selfless psychology has deep roots in convention in contemporary society. 00:43:20.900 --> 00:43:29.800 This observed that, quote, the material success of the contemporary economy underlies many of the assumptions which emerge in the selfless writing, unquote. 00:43:30.980 --> 00:43:35.765 He singled out Carl Rogers believed that the economy will keep on growing. 00:43:35.985 --> 00:43:42.405 And as it does so, marriage and family and other precapitalist relationships will fall by the wayside. 00:43:44.145 --> 00:43:54.620 The possessive individual owes nothing to society, and traditional social arrangements can be negotiated and revised based on the belief that relationships are contracts. 00:43:56.120 --> 00:44:00.700 This quoted from Carl Rogers' book, Becoming Partners, Marriage and Its Alternatives. 00:44:02.125 --> 00:44:03.905 Quote, this is from Rogers. 00:44:04.605 --> 00:44:08.385 Marriage and the nuclear family constitute a failing institution. 00:44:08.925 --> 00:44:13.665 We need laboratories, experiments, attempts to avoid repeating past failure. 00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:28.320 This suggests that we consider, quote, intelligent and increasingly influential economic argument for a return to a simpler and less industrial society made by the Christian economist EF Schumacher. 00:44:30.005 --> 00:44:32.825 This proposal was made by contrast with the selfist. 00:44:33.525 --> 00:44:43.465 Their psychology is dependent on, quote, the last stages of late in industrial urban economy, which is now which has already begun to collapse. 00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:46.060 It's right. 00:44:46.520 --> 00:44:57.500 Moreover, self isms or advocate advocacy of experience now and not inhibiting our repression was a boon to the advertising industry, unquote. 00:44:58.705 --> 00:45:08.885 Instead of liberating us from repressive social norms and roles, selfism enslaves us for de repression and instant gratification. 00:45:09.745 --> 00:45:13.445 All that liberation takes money or better yet, credit. 00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:15.580 Next slide, please. 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:28.620 Let's discuss the postmodern views of Kenneth Gergen and Philip Cushman who have described the emptiness of the modern self. 00:45:29.865 --> 00:45:33.245 Both Bergen and Cushman draw upon James' social self. 00:45:34.425 --> 00:45:41.165 Given that the focus is on the social self, Bergen correctly diagnosed our condition as the saturated self. 00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:49.200 Because the number of groups to which we belong and from whom we get recognition have proliferated with technological changes. 00:45:50.300 --> 00:46:01.405 For example, before the telephone, a person could not have had the experience of being with someone else in an immediate sense who was not an embodied presence. 00:46:02.905 --> 00:46:06.205 Social relationships had been always with somebody. 00:46:07.220 --> 00:46:10.040 With the telephone, I am only with a voice. 00:46:11.060 --> 00:46:22.600 Moreover, from 1876, the phone appeared, the present, social media, emails, text messages, Zoom calls, and the like. 00:46:23.025 --> 00:46:25.365 How many social selves do I have now? 00:46:26.305 --> 00:46:35.285 Bits following Gergen writes that we, quote, we have a self without a center created by a huge variety of interactions with different groups and environments. 00:46:36.820 --> 00:46:39.400 We experience a fluid and unfixed identity. 00:46:40.100 --> 00:46:47.480 The modern self, autonomous, rational, aloof from the flesh has collapsed, says Cushman. 00:46:47.620 --> 00:46:49.800 There is no meaning to it all. 00:46:51.365 --> 00:46:59.305 This proposes as a solution to postmodern, a transmodern self, which he developed after 1977. 00:47:00.645 --> 00:47:06.780 In psychology of religion, it described the dialectical development in three stages of the transcendent self. 00:47:07.420 --> 00:47:17.360 In stage one, self, early human development, is undifferentiated from the object, the mother, and so the other is differentiated from the self. 00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:33.875 In stage two, the growing self comes to see more and more of the world as its object, the self becoming Faustian in that object objectification of the world gives the self a kind of power over the world. 00:47:34.070 --> 00:47:38.250 The power exemplifies exemplified a natural scientific knowing. 00:47:39.510 --> 00:47:47.450 Eventually, even the modern even the self becomes an object for itself, and here we have the beginning of the breakdown of this modern self. 00:47:48.245 --> 00:47:49.945 Stage three is a reversal. 00:47:51.525 --> 00:48:03.400 Quote, the only way out is to lose this self, to let it go, and once more willingly become an object again, an object in the love and service of god, unquote. 00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:09.320 This is the transcendent self or the transmodern self, a self beyond itself. 00:48:10.180 --> 00:48:16.555 This transcendent self is not autonomous, not self actualized, not self determined, not independent. 00:48:17.415 --> 00:48:18.955 It is definitely not okay. 00:48:20.135 --> 00:48:27.435 Transcendent self recognizes that it is known more than it is knowing, more loved than loving. 00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:34.860 To desire to be an object seems a paradoxical one for herself that is understood to have the world as its object. 00:48:36.200 --> 00:48:41.740 However, this call to be an object derives from the psychology of Saint Augustine. 00:48:42.605 --> 00:48:48.145 We differentiated the light by which we see from the light by which we are seen. 00:48:48.685 --> 00:49:01.980 For this, transcendence of the self happens, quote, with preparation of mind and will, transcendent awareness of god's love and will is pass and and will and it's possible by god's grace. 00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:10.060 Indeed, in closing the book, it's observed that, quote, search for the transcendence of the self is now firmly begun. 00:49:10.600 --> 00:49:11.580 Next slide, please. 00:49:18.105 --> 00:49:24.525 While the self may have had problematic relations with transcendence, the soul seeks the transcendence transcendence. 00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:30.240 When the term soul was dropped from psychology, what term replaced it? 00:49:31.180 --> 00:49:32.640 For many, it was the self. 00:49:33.260 --> 00:49:39.520 So it makes sense that to keep transcendent in mind, psychology needs a return to the soul. 00:49:39.705 --> 00:49:43.085 In recent years, that's what Paul has been doing. 00:49:43.865 --> 00:49:48.045 His path to the concept of the self has led to that of the soul. 00:49:48.825 --> 00:49:59.780 Back in 1998, in the review of the book called reclaiming the soul by Jeffrey Boyd, this suggested some topics to consider if we mean to bring soul back into psychology. 00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:02.740 Pay attention to the moral light. 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:11.625 Remember our capacity for self transcendence through loving others through reflection on one's own life as well as cultivating the interior life. 00:50:13.765 --> 00:50:23.305 This this wrote recently, quote, the meta model has reintroduced the soul into psychology and along with it, transcendent spiritual, quote. 00:50:24.860 --> 00:50:34.000 In contributions to a Catholic Christian meta model of the person elsewhere, Gritz has been cultivating soul making in psychology. 00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:42.865 His focus has been on the soul as formal cause of human life, on the distinctively human aspects are of our aliveness. 00:50:44.205 --> 00:50:49.905 This term soul means, quote, the animating spiritual form of the human body. 00:50:52.060 --> 00:51:07.865 The soul which he compares to a code such as the DNA code, quote, animates and structures the material aspects of the body and integrates those bodily processes with human consciousness and our spiritual cape capacities with human consciousness. 00:51:09.205 --> 00:51:20.580 He, unquote, he compares the soul to a musical performance in which, quote, the nonmaterial higher level conceptual understanding of the piece that's embodied through the performance, unquote. 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:25.460 The performance being an instance of mind body unity. 00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.420 At the heart of his advocacy of the soul is the following. 00:51:31.785 --> 00:51:41.645 Quote, a perfect spiritual code or or soul exists at a transcendent level, and it both animates and structures the form of our body, unquote. 00:51:43.170 --> 00:51:51.990 One can imagine our empiricist colleagues in psychology rolling their eyes and hearing this and objecting that the statement is not an empirical one. 00:51:52.530 --> 00:51:53.670 How could it be falsified? 00:51:55.010 --> 00:51:55.990 Uh-huh, comes the reply. 00:51:58.245 --> 00:52:01.865 The question assumes that Vince is talking about efficient causality. 00:52:02.405 --> 00:52:06.665 How is this alleged soul a stimulus for some bodily movement? 00:52:07.605 --> 00:52:09.545 The statement is about formal causality. 00:52:10.240 --> 00:52:13.860 Of course, what we look for is not a stimulus, but a pattern. 00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:16.580 Let me put it in other terms. 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.660 Sowell gives us a different way of looking at what appears. 00:52:21.520 --> 00:52:34.265 Here with this formulaization, we see someone telling a therapist about a life event, and Soule is brought in with the question, what is the spiritual essence of this action or of this narrative? 00:52:35.125 --> 00:52:47.280 I do not mean in a pollyannish, high in the sky way because, remember our friend, Rolomei, spiritual essence may be a struggle with the individual's daimon for good or ill. 00:52:48.220 --> 00:52:54.705 Looking through the soul means asking about the musical performance underway in human act experience. 00:52:55.965 --> 00:53:02.945 In other words, to borrow a phrase from James Hillman, soul is a perspective upon things, not a thing in itself. 00:53:03.885 --> 00:53:08.000 Soul is not one of the phenomena, not a what at all. 00:53:08.620 --> 00:53:12.240 Vitz told us that the soul, quote, exists at a transcendent level. 00:53:12.700 --> 00:53:20.560 A transcendent level is an opening upon the all, placing us at the same time in the world and out of the world. 00:53:21.985 --> 00:53:36.165 Among the things that soul attunes us are these human actions, which Vitz and Titus enumerate, reason and will, human self consciousness, language, moral agency, and responsibility. 00:53:38.040 --> 00:53:46.140 Soul, moreover, attunes us to our immortal destiny since soul directs our attention to our life with god here and here at. 00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:59.535 Above all, soul, as part of our way of looking, throws our attention to the fact that every client, patient, colleague, student, teacher, family member, homeless person living under a bridge is one of the immortals. 00:54:00.315 --> 00:54:02.815 Bearing that in mind is a gift of the soul. 00:54:03.515 --> 00:54:06.200 Next slide, please. 00:54:14.900 --> 00:54:19.320 Paul has been doing the hard work of integration with his colleagues here at Divine Mercy University. 00:54:20.005 --> 00:54:24.905 May have published the fruits of that labor in Catholic Christian meta model of the human person. 00:54:26.325 --> 00:54:32.425 Paul's earlier work, especially psychology as religion, establishes his place his place in the history of psychology. 00:54:32.920 --> 00:54:39.420 In particular, his place stands with the following conclusion of this exploration this evening. 00:54:39.560 --> 00:54:41.100 So I'm gonna return to my conclusions. 00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:46.940 Vitz has developed a self psychology in the Jamesian tradition. 00:54:47.485 --> 00:54:51.185 It's self psychology, however, leads us to the soul. 00:54:52.365 --> 00:54:56.865 The soul is the third thing between psychology and religion, uniting and dividing them. 00:54:58.125 --> 00:55:11.370 Those experiences that implicate soul and psychology implicated in religion, human rationality, moral choice, will, suffering, love, devotion, deprivation, and sacrifice. 00:55:12.790 --> 00:55:18.765 Psychology and religion share this common ground, and soul is the lynch lynch lynch in between them. 00:55:19.645 --> 00:55:23.185 Second conclusion, psychology has a religious unconscious. 00:55:24.365 --> 00:55:34.820 Psychology has never been unintegrated with the In going about the work of integration or disentanglement, we need to see how this has been going on unwittingly. 00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.580 Integration needs to be done on a conscious level. 00:55:39.520 --> 00:55:42.420 Psychology as religion is a good start in that direction. 00:55:43.200 --> 00:55:46.500 We need to investigate the genealogy of the work of integration. 00:55:47.415 --> 00:55:57.675 To do so, psychology can turn to the Christian intellectual tradition and find fresh perspectives on psychological topics, dare to learn from the past. 00:55:58.935 --> 00:56:02.950 And finally, our third conclusion, There is a truth to self worship. 00:56:04.290 --> 00:56:09.510 Psychology can promote self worship only because the self reflects the handy handiwork of the creator. 00:56:10.290 --> 00:56:13.750 The worship of the self is the result of misrecognition. 00:56:14.815 --> 00:56:19.475 I confuse my ego in the imago dei, the image of God at the center of myself. 00:56:20.255 --> 00:56:26.195 In desiring self fulfillment in consumerist terms, I see a wholeness where there is emptiness. 00:56:26.780 --> 00:56:31.760 I miss the real I miss that the real object of my desire cannot be bought. 00:56:32.300 --> 00:56:37.360 Self worship is insatiable because its object always escapes. 00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:38.720 Thank you. 00:56:50.255 --> 00:56:52.915 Thank you for that presentation. 00:56:53.295 --> 00:57:09.315 I'm I'm I'm I'm very grateful and awed by someone as, you know, historically sophisticated and so so, accomplished even addressing the topic of what what my work might mean. 00:57:09.875 --> 00:57:18.615 And so I'm, first, I'd just like to thank you very, very much, Bob, for for what you said. 00:57:19.155 --> 00:57:35.360 And also, that one of the things that which I'm sure you noticed and were polite enough not to point out, I didn't have a good historical understanding of what I was doing when I was doing some of my early writings. 00:57:36.375 --> 00:57:41.835 So that connecting it to James, I missed that. 00:57:42.295 --> 00:57:44.555 I or I didn't know it one or the other. 00:57:44.855 --> 00:57:51.355 And you didn't you you mentioned that that's where my approach belongs and that you're quite correct. 00:57:51.580 --> 00:57:55.520 And I thank you for that for that education that you've given me there. 00:57:56.300 --> 00:58:02.160 Well, you know, likewise, Paul, it was it was a real learning experience spending this all this time with books. 00:58:02.620 --> 00:58:04.720 You know, at first, I had the first edition. 00:58:05.635 --> 00:58:07.715 Then it hurts to me at some point, well, I better get the second one. 00:58:07.715 --> 00:58:08.695 It's already changed. 00:58:09.635 --> 00:58:11.315 I changed somewhat in the second one. 00:58:11.315 --> 00:58:11.715 I did. 00:58:11.715 --> 00:58:12.915 You changed you changed yeah. 00:58:12.915 --> 00:58:20.000 It's, second edition is, is, I mean, they're both very good. 00:58:20.220 --> 00:58:21.680 I really like the second edition. 00:58:21.980 --> 00:58:28.320 I was a little more I I saw some more positive things in some of my opponents by that time. 00:58:29.020 --> 00:58:39.345 And, so that and I think psychology now has is on the right track, frankly, and it's this conceptual center. 00:58:40.605 --> 00:58:52.160 I think with the the understanding of redemptive narrative therapy, the understanding of forgiveness and psychotherapy, the understanding of the importance of the virtues. 00:58:53.020 --> 00:58:59.120 It's beginning to knock on the door of really understanding the notion of the transcendent self. 00:58:59.605 --> 00:59:00.345 This one. 00:59:01.445 --> 00:59:15.385 And and, of course, I look forward to your masterpiece, which is in press coming out shortly on psychology, well, on psychology as a soulless science, soulless discipline. 00:59:16.220 --> 00:59:17.260 A whole book on it. 00:59:17.260 --> 00:59:27.120 So that that's I recommend everybody here if you really wanna know probably what the capstone would be, read read Bob Fogelman's new book. 00:59:28.265 --> 00:59:30.905 Well, in fact, I just got the, proofs today. 00:59:30.905 --> 00:59:33.085 I have to spend the next couple of weeks go proofreading. 00:59:35.625 --> 00:59:36.905 Good luck on all of that. 00:59:36.905 --> 00:59:37.545 It's Yeah. 00:59:37.545 --> 00:59:38.925 That's always been tedious. 00:59:38.985 --> 00:59:39.805 I know that. 00:59:40.040 --> 01:00:06.625 One of the things I wanted to mention that is that in my critique of the self psychologist, particularly somebody like Carl Rogers, who actually complained that, he had a very good marriage, actually, and but his wife was dying of cancer near the end of her her life, and he he complained about whether he he would not be able to self actualize because he'd have to spend so much time with her. 01:00:08.300 --> 01:00:11.120 And, that wasn't I mean, it was in print. 01:00:12.380 --> 01:00:24.815 But what what I'm trying the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of American psychology and American culture emphasizes the isolated self, the self without relationships with others. 01:00:26.155 --> 01:00:39.490 And that's what I was critiquing in part when I was critiquing the the autonomous self who was just like the, you know, the independent American, the self made man type of notion. 01:00:39.490 --> 01:00:39.990 Mhmm. 01:00:40.130 --> 01:00:53.845 You think you're a self made man, go back and talk to your mother who who took care of you during all of those non self made years when you were needing diaper changes and food and all the rest of it. 01:00:54.145 --> 01:01:00.805 But, but psychology has recovered from that absence of emphasis on the interpersonal. 01:01:02.460 --> 01:01:05.100 It was there in the '70s and '60s more. 01:01:05.100 --> 01:01:08.700 And now, they do recognize the importance of the interpersonal. 01:01:08.700 --> 01:01:17.040 So, that's part of their recovery, along with the other things that I mentioned, like virtues and forgiveness and so forth. 01:01:17.905 --> 01:01:18.065 Yeah. 01:01:18.065 --> 01:01:20.325 And I think you're I think I agree with you. 01:01:20.545 --> 01:01:23.765 I think there's a lot a lot good going on in psychology these days. 01:01:24.625 --> 01:01:25.025 Yes. 01:01:25.025 --> 01:01:30.805 And the only problem now that I have with psychology is a lot of these good things aren't getting out into the popular culture. 01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:40.140 The popular culture is still lagging back with the consumer self and all of that. 01:01:40.520 --> 01:01:51.125 But sooner or later, the virtues will finally get into the theories of education and even forgiveness will get into standard psychotherapy training. 01:01:52.865 --> 01:01:53.185 Yeah. 01:01:53.185 --> 01:02:02.885 And I have noticed in recent years, there's much more interest in work of integration psychology and religion. 01:02:03.345 --> 01:02:03.845 Yes. 01:02:04.490 --> 01:02:18.270 I mean, I I've been impressed with the I mean, I'm a newcomer to the Catholic Psychotherapy Association with this journal, but I I've been impressed with the, how many people are involved with it. 01:02:18.605 --> 01:02:19.105 Yes. 01:02:19.805 --> 01:02:23.885 All over the country and beyond with the borders too as well. 01:02:23.885 --> 01:02:24.205 Yes. 01:02:24.205 --> 01:02:26.305 It's happening all over sort of spontaneously. 01:02:27.485 --> 01:02:28.205 And it's Yeah. 01:02:28.205 --> 01:02:41.200 That's why I think finally its moment is here and we're going to see something really very remarkable, unexpected, and I think positive emerge from it. 01:02:41.200 --> 01:02:43.620 And I'm looking for some of that in your book. 01:02:46.065 --> 01:02:49.925 The positive, remarkable emergent sense. 01:02:50.465 --> 01:02:50.965 Yeah. 01:02:52.305 --> 01:03:08.280 But, so it was I think I I summarized the relationship with the consumer psychology by quoting the Burger King theory of personality, which is have it your way. 01:03:09.460 --> 01:03:14.900 Some of us remember when that was an expression used by Burger King to advertise That's right. 01:03:14.900 --> 01:03:15.640 That's right. 01:03:16.415 --> 01:03:21.715 Have it your way or you're the boss or, you know, whatever, that type of thing. 01:03:22.095 --> 01:03:24.655 But, I think we're slowly getting past that. 01:03:24.655 --> 01:03:30.755 I think we're getting past I think there's an emerging development that's really quite quite convincing. 01:03:32.740 --> 01:03:33.220 Yeah. 01:03:33.220 --> 01:03:47.000 You know, one of the things that we're reading, what you wrote in 1977 about larger society and it's, I forgot the exact wording, but it's skepticism with regards to science. 01:03:47.825 --> 01:03:48.325 What? 01:03:48.945 --> 01:03:53.365 It's you you talked about the, and I can't I probably can't find it now. 01:03:54.145 --> 01:03:58.165 I thought you were, way ahead of the curve on that. 01:03:58.945 --> 01:04:01.125 About skepticism and some about science? 01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:01.520 Yeah. 01:04:01.520 --> 01:04:10.100 That there's a growing skepticism towards science and It's developed really rapidly in the last five years, which was way after I wrote those. 01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:10.640 Right. 01:04:10.640 --> 01:04:10.880 Right. 01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:12.980 You you say that in 1977. 01:04:13.040 --> 01:04:13.360 Yeah. 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:18.335 And I was I was I didn't have that much to go on then. 01:04:18.335 --> 01:04:30.115 But now with the COVID stuff and science is turning out to be sort of like a hired gun, you know, it'll find what you pay it to find. 01:04:31.070 --> 01:04:34.930 That's especially true in biological and psychological sciences. 01:04:35.390 --> 01:04:36.930 You can't do that in physics. 01:04:37.550 --> 01:04:45.985 People don't care too much about the behaviors of different subatomic particles in terms of, you know, whether it will pay off for them or not. 01:04:46.445 --> 01:04:50.145 But physics is still, I think, very pretty, pretty solid. 01:04:50.685 --> 01:04:51.585 But Yeah. 01:04:52.205 --> 01:05:01.030 But, although even there, they're beginning to ask, maybe we need a a form of physics that doesn't require experimental support. 01:05:03.410 --> 01:05:13.905 Well, that's some of them are arguing that we should have a osmology of of interpretive convincingness, but without necessarily any data. 01:05:16.125 --> 01:05:23.085 Well, you know, it's it's, postmodernism has seeped into the everyday culture, hasn't it? 01:05:23.085 --> 01:05:23.585 Yes. 01:05:24.820 --> 01:05:25.320 Yes. 01:05:25.700 --> 01:05:28.180 And that's part of the skepticism about science. 01:05:28.180 --> 01:05:45.445 Sometimes it's not deserved, but sometimes it is because science has begun to not in particularly science in biology and in psychology, where there's so many under other variables that aren't controlled whenever you run a single experiment. 01:05:46.065 --> 01:05:54.565 So you don't know whether COVID is gonna cause, you know, you know, people not to be able to have children in the future. 01:05:55.590 --> 01:05:57.530 No one's testing that very much. 01:05:57.750 --> 01:06:06.570 But there are all these other variables they're not testing as long as they get some evidence that one variable does seem to have a positive or a negative effect. 01:06:06.950 --> 01:06:09.110 But they don't test all the others that are involved. 01:06:09.110 --> 01:06:10.490 The same thing in psychology. 01:06:11.215 --> 01:06:19.075 And it's very hard, therefore, to do good science because there's so many other potentially relevant variables that could be accounting for it. 01:06:20.255 --> 01:06:28.710 And we're beginning to understand that, and and they and and in biology and in psychology, we can't live off the reputation of physics. 01:06:29.330 --> 01:06:29.810 Right. 01:06:29.810 --> 01:06:30.310 Right. 01:06:31.810 --> 01:06:34.550 But, anyway, that seems to be going on today. 01:06:35.090 --> 01:06:37.250 But, who knows? 01:06:37.250 --> 01:06:40.070 There's good things and bad things going on. 01:06:41.105 --> 01:06:42.485 We'll see what happens. 01:06:43.985 --> 01:06:46.325 At my age, I don't have to worry about that. 01:06:46.385 --> 01:06:48.565 So other people will have to worry about it. 01:06:53.120 --> 01:07:03.940 Well, I'm encouraged by the increasing acceptance of qualitative research methods in psychology. 01:07:05.565 --> 01:07:07.745 And Yes, I forgot to mention that. 01:07:07.965 --> 01:07:21.370 That's a good point also of the improvement in psychology along with positive psychology and understanding the spiritual is important, understanding interpersonal relations are important, and understanding virtues. 01:07:22.310 --> 01:07:23.610 Qualitative research. 01:07:24.150 --> 01:07:30.810 There's another this is all part of psychology's becoming older and wiser. 01:07:32.565 --> 01:07:56.560 Finally, And and, of course, some of us had a glimmer of that earlier than others, but the field is eventually, I believe, incorporating things that are going to set it up for, you know, the psychology of the soul. 01:07:57.660 --> 01:07:58.800 Can I ask you something? 01:07:59.180 --> 01:07:59.680 Yeah. 01:08:00.875 --> 01:08:07.035 You talk about in in the in the in the beginning of the book, you talk about how you couldn't teach self psychologist anymore. 01:08:07.035 --> 01:08:09.275 This is back in the late sixties, I take it. 01:08:09.275 --> 01:08:09.775 Yes. 01:08:09.835 --> 01:08:11.935 Did you get a lot of pushback from colleagues? 01:08:13.160 --> 01:08:13.660 No. 01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:24.140 Most of my colleagues that were there were experimental psychologists or physiological psychologists or cognitive psychologists. 01:08:25.080 --> 01:08:35.575 And they considered this sort of enthusiasm for Rogierian self psychology that they were slightly embarrassed by it Mhmm. 01:08:35.935 --> 01:08:38.035 Because it wasn't really scientific. 01:08:38.815 --> 01:08:39.315 Mhmm. 01:08:39.455 --> 01:08:41.375 And they didn't wanna say anything about it. 01:08:41.375 --> 01:08:46.230 So when I said I couldn't find it being valid, I didn't get much pushback. 01:08:47.250 --> 01:08:57.250 One reason at, that I was at NYU, thanks to Providence, NYU, New York University, the faculty is all over the place there. 01:08:57.250 --> 01:08:59.110 It's not a collegial place. 01:09:00.745 --> 01:09:10.285 It you know, it and and not being collegial, there wasn't much interpersonal pressure because you didn't know each other outside of just the the the university setting. 01:09:11.305 --> 01:09:19.580 Some of them people lived in Massachusetts, others Long Island, some in New Jersey, a few lived downtown there near the university, which is where I live. 01:09:20.440 --> 01:09:22.860 So but your personal lives were all separated. 01:09:24.120 --> 01:09:27.340 And because of that, they didn't bother me that much. 01:09:27.895 --> 01:09:29.755 They required me to publish. 01:09:30.055 --> 01:09:31.755 They didn't like what I was publishing. 01:09:32.775 --> 01:09:40.555 But, as long as I kept active, they kept, you know, my my raises weren't high, but they would support me. 01:09:42.850 --> 01:09:48.870 Here here I thought all the faculty, psychology faculty were meeting in Washington Square Park and having coffee every day. 01:09:50.210 --> 01:09:52.290 And and then throwing bricks at me or something. 01:09:52.290 --> 01:09:52.790 No. 01:09:54.130 --> 01:09:55.275 They didn't do that. 01:09:55.355 --> 01:10:01.855 They were, they weren't friendly about it, but they were not in any significant way hostile. 01:10:02.715 --> 01:10:03.615 That's good. 01:10:04.475 --> 01:10:04.975 Yes. 01:10:05.275 --> 01:10:14.520 So that's I don't wanna pretend that I was some sort of outcast who suffered through years of rejection. 01:10:15.140 --> 01:10:19.160 It was the loneliness and the isolation, but not the criticism. 01:10:21.940 --> 01:10:30.425 The loneliness and isolation was somewhat difficult, but I didn't have that much isolation because we had six kids Oh. 01:10:32.325 --> 01:10:34.685 In a small apartment on the 23rd Right. 01:10:34.885 --> 01:10:36.345 On the 23rd Floor. 01:10:36.580 --> 01:10:37.140 Oh my. 01:10:37.140 --> 01:10:37.960 In Manhattan? 01:10:38.100 --> 01:10:39.880 In Manhattan down to in the village. 01:10:40.180 --> 01:10:40.920 Oh gosh. 01:10:40.980 --> 01:10:41.460 Yeah. 01:10:41.460 --> 01:10:43.800 We're in Greenwich Village on Bleecker Street. 01:10:44.820 --> 01:10:45.560 Oh my. 01:10:46.740 --> 01:10:48.120 And my wife was terrific. 01:10:49.765 --> 01:10:50.565 She was terrific. 01:10:50.565 --> 01:10:56.265 She was also a professor there in French, you know, the French French literature. 01:11:00.325 --> 01:11:05.145 Well, I probably walked by your apartment because I went to school and and I went to Manhattan College. 01:11:05.740 --> 01:11:06.240 Oh. 01:11:06.940 --> 01:11:09.180 And going to the village was always a big deal. 01:11:09.180 --> 01:11:09.840 You know? 01:11:11.180 --> 01:11:14.560 Well, that's where I I lived in the village for forty seven years. 01:11:18.265 --> 01:11:24.525 But anyway, I'm optimistic about where psychology can move to and can develop. 01:11:25.545 --> 01:11:28.925 And I hope other people can see ways to move it that way. 01:11:31.180 --> 01:11:32.380 Exactly how, I don't know. 01:11:32.380 --> 01:11:45.575 But I think the soul is, as your book is focused on, would be a great place for many people to start because that's the supernatural component that has to be admitted into psychology. 01:11:46.115 --> 01:11:52.775 And once you do it, you also admit you're no longer in the empirical in the business of empirical testing. 01:11:53.555 --> 01:12:02.800 But the idea that everything has to be empirically tested is just an assumption, an assumption that is now often even controversial other places. 01:12:03.660 --> 01:12:15.035 So, if you can be reasonable and rational and sensible and makes intelligent sense out of it, that's important. 01:12:15.815 --> 01:12:24.475 And that's what's for example, there's an institute in Rome called the Expanded Reason Institute. 01:12:26.030 --> 01:12:34.850 And that institute was set up by Cardinal Ratzinger, now then Pope Benedict the sixteenth. 01:12:35.550 --> 01:12:48.975 And what he really wants to do is to bring reason back to its significant contribution to the intellectual life and not have it just reduced to empirical, reductionistic science. 01:12:53.690 --> 01:12:55.630 And so that I think that's really important. 01:12:56.250 --> 01:13:02.430 And, and I see other signs of the notion that we're going to expand and the notion of integration. 01:13:03.450 --> 01:13:07.710 As long as we don't see integration in psychology as the form of salvation. 01:13:08.145 --> 01:13:08.645 Mhmm. 01:13:10.385 --> 01:13:10.885 Right. 01:13:11.585 --> 01:13:12.465 It's not ours. 01:13:12.465 --> 01:13:22.885 Integration can be an intellectual, very rich thing, but our salvation comes you you don't have to be smart to go to heaven. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:30.100 I think the smarter you are, then maybe you you have a liability, sort of like being rich. 01:13:31.760 --> 01:13:32.260 Yeah. 01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:35.745 Anyway Yeah. 01:13:35.745 --> 01:13:53.860 One of the things from my perspective, of course, one of the things I I hope to see is that is that as psychology begins to reconsider the soul again, it'll it'll look to its own past and draw some of the riches that have been forgotten within one hundred and fifty years. 01:13:55.280 --> 01:13:55.780 Look. 01:13:56.000 --> 01:14:04.080 That's one of the things about that that's one of the things I wanna underline and and, again, is your book and your essay here. 01:14:04.080 --> 01:14:19.095 I don't I don't know about the book yet, The Soul, but your essay here, so put this set of questions in the history of psychology and of the intellectual life, that's a major contribution. 01:14:21.100 --> 01:14:28.800 But, you know, that is, you know, that's a big idea that can suddenly enrich the environment of what people are going to be reading and thinking about. 01:14:31.740 --> 01:14:59.140 And it'll become commonplace that is people will say, well, you know, we we can cite, the best part of, say, of Augustine, Saint Augustine or we can by the way, the first theorist of the unconscious was Saint Paul When he said, why is it that we do what we don't want to do and and don't do what we want to? 01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:04.020 He was on the defense mechanisms and things like that implicitly. 01:15:05.935 --> 01:15:06.595 Right there. 01:15:06.735 --> 01:15:26.360 And it took how many more years before anyway, but your book, by putting it in the context of the history of psychology itself, especially because of and I have the personal fondness for William James. 01:15:26.660 --> 01:15:31.240 But but but for all of them that you brought in, one was PACE, wasn't it? 01:15:31.460 --> 01:15:31.960 Yes. 01:15:32.260 --> 01:15:34.040 I didn't know of him at all. 01:15:35.155 --> 01:15:41.815 I what what excuse for education do I have if I didn't know about Pace at all? 01:15:42.275 --> 01:15:44.135 Ace is a really interesting fellow. 01:15:44.435 --> 01:15:47.575 He was one of the first members of the American Psychological Association. 01:15:48.480 --> 01:15:48.980 Really? 01:15:49.280 --> 01:15:54.580 He wasn't a charter member, but I think he got elected into the APA the second year. 01:15:55.120 --> 01:15:55.620 Wow. 01:15:56.960 --> 01:15:59.540 And, yeah, he did. 01:15:59.840 --> 01:16:00.900 He's from Florida. 01:16:02.045 --> 01:16:05.185 He's an American, and he studied with. 01:16:05.565 --> 01:16:13.265 He was, in Paris studying physiology, and then he was in a bookstore and he came across a book by. 01:16:14.300 --> 01:16:16.160 Said, oh, I wanna study with this guy. 01:16:16.940 --> 01:16:20.160 And he and he went to He went over to Germany to do that. 01:16:20.620 --> 01:16:20.860 Yeah. 01:16:20.860 --> 01:16:25.920 He he he, yeah, he he got permission from his order to do that, or he was I think he may have been a diocesan. 01:16:26.260 --> 01:16:29.440 But, anyway, he was at Catholic u. 01:16:30.645 --> 01:16:35.945 He did some experimentation, so he had it he he earned his street cred that way. 01:16:36.805 --> 01:16:48.540 He also became, editor of the Catholic Encyclopedia, and he was I think he was founding editor of the New Scholasticism and the American Catholic Philosophical Association. 01:16:49.240 --> 01:16:49.740 Wow. 01:16:50.360 --> 01:16:58.745 He he's a really he never wrote kinda like his magnum opus on psychology, But there's a lot of good stuff available. 01:17:00.005 --> 01:17:00.405 Right? 01:17:00.405 --> 01:17:00.885 Thank you. 01:17:00.885 --> 01:17:19.470 Thank you for letting me know about him and doing all the rest of that historical work because that's a real contribution for other people now as you've laid out different lines of reading, investigation, finding earlier ways of saying things that today might suddenly seem very innovative. 01:17:19.930 --> 01:17:22.270 So thank you. 01:17:22.490 --> 01:17:23.470 Oh, you're welcome. 01:17:33.295 --> 01:17:52.410 First one is, do you think that Martin Seligman's positive psychology has further opened the door to the discussion of the role of religion and emphasizes emphasizing meaning in his b e r m a qualities, not as a full discussion of the inner life, but as acknowledgment of its importance. 01:17:53.005 --> 01:17:57.665 I wonder what you and doctor Palfetz think of Seligman in this context of integration. 01:17:59.245 --> 01:18:03.985 Well, I I would cite him as somebody who has opened the door that way. 01:18:04.205 --> 01:18:12.790 He's explicitly said that it's not for psychology to talk about which virtues are more worthwhile or what the goal of them is and so forth. 01:18:12.850 --> 01:18:17.990 He said that's up to philosophers and theologians, so he's actually opened the door explicitly. 01:18:18.930 --> 01:18:19.430 Mhmm. 01:18:19.650 --> 01:18:19.890 Yeah. 01:18:19.890 --> 01:18:27.085 I I think he's done a made an important contribution You can talk about virtue and character and psychology again. 01:18:27.085 --> 01:18:27.488 Yes. 01:18:27.488 --> 01:18:34.743 And he's tried to he's tried to do it in a way that, is scientific Yes. 01:18:35.146 --> 01:18:41.990 Unlike some of the early humanistic psychologists who kind of rejected scientific approach altogether. 01:18:42.610 --> 01:18:43.110 Right. 01:18:45.010 --> 01:18:45.250 No. 01:18:45.250 --> 01:18:47.430 So I think I think Seligman is is important. 01:18:49.330 --> 01:18:49.890 Let me see. 01:18:49.890 --> 01:18:52.550 Go to the next let me look at the next question here. 01:18:53.955 --> 01:18:58.515 I wonder how you view Viktor Frankl's work in logotherapy in this context. 01:18:58.515 --> 01:19:03.975 He was talking of the will to meaning as the secularist promoted self theory. 01:19:04.435 --> 01:19:12.380 I was thinking of the Rogerian context of selfless psychology, which Frankl critiqued in his book, the unheard cry for meaning. 01:19:13.160 --> 01:19:14.920 Frankl and Rogers were almost contemporaries. 01:19:14.920 --> 01:19:16.440 They they were more than almost contemporaries. 01:19:16.440 --> 01:19:17.260 They were contemporaries. 01:19:18.520 --> 01:19:18.760 Yes. 01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:19.580 They were contemporaries. 01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:20.300 Yes. 01:19:20.360 --> 01:19:20.860 Yeah. 01:19:23.675 --> 01:19:26.475 And in fact, Frankl came to The US on a number of occasions. 01:19:26.475 --> 01:19:32.415 I don't know if if he if he if he knew how personally he knew Carl Rogers, but very likely. 01:19:34.520 --> 01:19:34.840 Yeah. 01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:36.140 Franco is really important. 01:19:36.520 --> 01:19:37.020 Yes. 01:19:38.360 --> 01:19:49.275 Especially, he there's more depth in his work and because of his his own experiences of suffering, he saw a positive role for suffering in one's life. 01:19:51.575 --> 01:20:00.635 Not that it it's it's always a good thing, but it it's one can still find some meaning even in suffering. 01:20:00.930 --> 01:20:02.630 I mean, to to me, that's been important. 01:20:02.770 --> 01:20:16.070 When you when you can't work, when you're isolated from all your loved ones as he was in the in the concentration camps, there's still a possibility of coming to find some meaning or significance in your life. 01:20:18.215 --> 01:20:18.715 Yes. 01:20:20.295 --> 01:20:40.930 He when he was in this country, he said one thing that The US needs is probably they should put up a statue in the San Francisco Harbor, a statute of responsibility as a as a cons as the, if you will, as the, as the compliment of the Statue Of Liberty. 01:20:42.350 --> 01:20:43.410 Statue of responsibility. 01:20:45.305 --> 01:20:51.485 As he learned here, we meant by freedom, freedom from anything, not not freedom for anything. 01:20:51.865 --> 01:20:52.185 Right. 01:20:52.185 --> 01:20:52.665 Right. 01:20:52.665 --> 01:20:53.165 Right. 01:20:53.945 --> 01:21:04.820 But he was a very he's a precursor of a lot of the things that, have been discussed tonight by both, by both doctor Kugelman and myself. 01:21:05.440 --> 01:21:05.680 Yeah. 01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:08.180 He really he really has a place in this story. 01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:09.380 Yes. 01:21:14.975 --> 01:21:16.035 Let me say something. 01:21:22.495 --> 01:21:23.235 Oh, yeah. 01:21:23.295 --> 01:21:28.675 Even before World War two, he was involved in, suicide prevention. 01:21:29.430 --> 01:21:30.070 Who was? 01:21:30.070 --> 01:21:31.930 A young psych as a young psychiatrist. 01:21:33.030 --> 01:21:33.530 Frankl? 01:21:33.990 --> 01:21:34.490 Yes. 01:21:34.790 --> 01:21:35.270 Wow. 01:21:35.270 --> 01:21:35.770 Okay. 01:21:36.630 --> 01:21:39.850 I don't I I think he was working with adolescents, if I'm not mistaken. 01:21:42.325 --> 01:21:43.465 I didn't know that. 01:21:44.005 --> 01:21:44.325 Yeah. 01:21:44.325 --> 01:21:47.605 He he was he was another product of Vienna. 01:21:47.605 --> 01:21:51.205 Vienna had many important psychologists in the twentieth century. 01:21:51.205 --> 01:21:52.245 He's one of them. 01:21:52.245 --> 01:21:52.725 Yeah. 01:21:52.725 --> 01:21:56.185 The three great ones were Freud, Adler, and Frankl. 01:21:56.820 --> 01:21:57.320 Right. 01:21:57.780 --> 01:21:58.280 Right. 01:21:58.980 --> 01:22:01.720 Let's see see what the next question is here. 01:22:08.660 --> 01:22:11.385 In your lecture, you said something like formal cause is a tricky one. 01:22:11.385 --> 01:22:13.325 Can you please say more about this description? 01:22:16.105 --> 01:22:16.265 Yeah. 01:22:16.265 --> 01:22:18.525 I've gotten really interested in formal causality. 01:22:21.145 --> 01:22:27.910 Of, you know, Aristotle talked about four causes, efficient, formal, material, and final. 01:22:29.730 --> 01:22:38.470 Mostly sign in the natural sciences, they're interested in questions of efficient causality, cause and effect relationships as it were. 01:22:39.405 --> 01:22:44.865 But, formal causality has to do with essence. 01:22:47.805 --> 01:22:55.840 And it's I was really taken by the what the the McLuhans proposed. 01:22:56.300 --> 01:23:07.175 And if you wanna find the formal cause of a of a of a book or an article or something or or an advertisement even, You look to its audience. 01:23:08.755 --> 01:23:26.110 So it's it got me thinking about when when one is writing or doing anything along those lines, one has either clearly or vaguely some idea of who is this this writing is addressed to, for whom are you doing it. 01:23:26.170 --> 01:23:37.925 This is not happening it it may be happening in isolation, but it's still it it's happening with somebody or some people in mind. 01:23:38.865 --> 01:23:53.380 And so and that's and that and if you have that reader that you're addressing, and that is the context in which you produce the work. 01:23:53.600 --> 01:24:01.375 So the work is ultimately what the reader then gets. 01:24:03.435 --> 01:24:12.495 And so that the, the effect, in some respect, comes before the cause in formal causality. 01:24:14.020 --> 01:24:23.720 For example, in politics, the formal cause of an of a politician's words can often be the desire to get the votes of the audience. 01:24:24.180 --> 01:24:25.800 Oh, yeah. 01:24:26.020 --> 01:24:26.520 Absolutely. 01:24:29.035 --> 01:24:29.435 Yeah. 01:24:29.435 --> 01:24:33.115 So it it's it's it's it's different it's tricky in that way. 01:24:33.115 --> 01:24:40.750 But I think and if we're gonna be talking about the soul and psychology, work needs to be done on formal causality. 01:24:42.010 --> 01:24:42.970 Final causality too. 01:24:42.970 --> 01:24:45.950 So what's the goal, the purpose, the end in mind? 01:24:47.770 --> 01:24:59.885 But, formal causality is important because we tend to think of the soul as a stimulus. 01:25:00.025 --> 01:25:05.405 We tend to think of it if if if we think of it at all, think of it as a stimulus, and then it doesn't make any sense. 01:25:06.950 --> 01:25:16.330 So to think of it in terms of of form, which is how many people over the centuries have thought of it, I think is is really important. 01:25:18.150 --> 01:25:19.050 That make sense? 01:25:21.235 --> 01:25:21.635 Let me see. 01:25:21.635 --> 01:25:27.975 I don't know if any of Your answer was fine by me. 01:25:28.275 --> 01:25:28.775 Okay. 01:25:30.515 --> 01:25:31.575 And by politicians. 01:25:32.675 --> 01:25:33.175 Yeah. 01:25:43.040 --> 01:25:43.520 Let's see. 01:25:43.520 --> 01:25:45.700 Oh, here's here's one here's a new one. 01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:51.435 You spoke about psychology, trying to study things Christians attribute to the soul. 01:25:51.895 --> 01:25:56.875 Do you think in the future we will find things that cannot be attributed to a biological thing? 01:25:57.255 --> 01:25:59.195 If so, how will it affect psychology? 01:26:01.110 --> 01:26:09.130 Well, if you're Thomistic, there's always there's always an element of the body that's involved. 01:26:10.470 --> 01:26:15.665 However, we are we're not confined to the biological level. 01:26:18.765 --> 01:26:39.650 For for for, Aquinas, it's it's the case that when we are thinking rationally, we are doing something that transcends the the body altogether because what you what thinking deals with concepts which are not material. 01:26:42.445 --> 01:26:54.625 So, yes, we will be think we'll we'll we will be finding things that cannot be attributed to a biological thing because we're not simply, biological beings. 01:26:56.740 --> 01:27:01.540 We're also cultural, spiritual, social beings, if you will. 01:27:01.540 --> 01:27:05.080 And all of those have to be taken into consideration. 01:27:05.940 --> 01:27:06.440 Yes. 01:27:06.500 --> 01:27:15.085 And one way of thinking about it is that our is that the human mind transcends the mind of, say, animals. 01:27:15.785 --> 01:27:16.285 Yes. 01:27:16.425 --> 01:27:25.930 And that that transcendence means that we're qualitatively capable of mental operations that are distinctly different from animals. 01:27:25.990 --> 01:27:32.490 And second, that those qualitative that our consciousness is not necessarily at all physical per se. 01:27:33.510 --> 01:27:44.955 And if you wanna think about it even further, because we've experienced transcendence from the animal world, we see animals as having a lower level than we're we're we've transcended them and we're unique. 01:27:45.495 --> 01:27:59.520 And that that and if you think of that as a nonphysical consciousness, as the transcendent consciousness is transcend is spiritual, we can also imagine another transcendence, which is higher than our own. 01:27:59.980 --> 01:28:04.415 And we get hints of that in the lives of mystics and people with near death experiences. 01:28:04.955 --> 01:28:10.255 And the thing that comes out of that is they say they cannot even speak about what it was that they experienced. 01:28:10.875 --> 01:28:23.970 It's as though they've so transcended our our own understanding, which is already transcendent, they've gone to another level of transcendence, which cannot even be expressed in our at our level. 01:28:24.910 --> 01:28:25.410 Right? 01:28:25.550 --> 01:28:26.690 So these are nonphysical. 01:28:27.565 --> 01:28:35.665 Both the spiritual transcendence of the mystic and the normal human consciousness, which seems to be unique to all humans. 01:28:36.285 --> 01:28:40.320 And it's nonphysical. 01:28:41.260 --> 01:28:41.500 Right. 01:28:41.500 --> 01:28:47.440 This is what, you know, Hayes saying that Thomas need to get involved in experimental psychology. 01:28:47.500 --> 01:28:49.760 Otherwise, the materials will run amok with it. 01:28:51.100 --> 01:29:00.325 We have the same situation today with physicalism being default metaphysics, if you will, of much of psychology. 01:29:00.865 --> 01:29:01.365 Yes. 01:29:01.745 --> 01:29:04.885 So you in in that way, you lose anything transcendent. 01:29:05.920 --> 01:29:06.420 Yes. 01:29:07.280 --> 01:29:07.680 Material. 01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:08.080 Yes. 01:29:08.080 --> 01:29:08.580 Yes. 01:29:09.520 --> 01:29:12.340 So, yeah, that that's that's an that's an important part of this. 01:29:18.015 --> 01:29:20.915 Would our brains still show spiritual experiences? 01:29:23.615 --> 01:29:29.395 The college scientists at the Yale University have honored the exact spot in the human being which activates when people experience spirituality. 01:29:33.040 --> 01:29:49.605 You know, one of the things I found out in when I was working on the book on the soul was that one of the substitutes for the soul, maybe the most important one, is the brain Because people will will say things like my brain thought. 01:29:51.425 --> 01:29:52.725 Your brain doesn't think. 01:29:53.985 --> 01:29:54.805 You think. 01:29:55.105 --> 01:29:57.870 You use your brain, but it's the person who thinks. 01:29:57.870 --> 01:30:14.475 And I think that's that's the important counter to a kind of, reduction to the brain as The implicit physical cause of everything. 01:30:14.695 --> 01:30:15.015 Yeah. 01:30:15.015 --> 01:30:15.255 Yeah. 01:30:15.255 --> 01:30:15.655 Yeah. 01:30:15.655 --> 01:30:27.550 I mean, no doubt in spiritual experiences, the brain is act the brain is active in every kind of experience, scientific, artistic, social, you name it. 01:30:29.850 --> 01:30:33.070 But that doesn't mean that that's all that it is. 01:30:33.930 --> 01:30:34.250 Yes. 01:30:34.250 --> 01:31:04.505 If you if you wanna get a an early wonderful count of or this argument that that that this opens up is is in is in William James' Varieties of Religious Experience where he talked about how just because some people that have religious experiences are psychopathological. 01:31:05.365 --> 01:31:06.745 They have some kind of disorder. 01:31:06.965 --> 01:31:10.105 It doesn't mean that religious experience is pathological. 01:31:12.645 --> 01:31:13.145 Right. 01:31:14.725 --> 01:31:21.600 It may it may be because some people that have scientific insights are also suffering from psychopathology. 01:31:22.060 --> 01:31:26.240 But we wouldn't say, well, all that all sciences is a result of the brain. 01:31:28.860 --> 01:31:32.400 So that that's also the case with with religious experience. 01:31:32.885 --> 01:31:40.825 So, yeah, it's important to understand the contributions that the brain makes to our our psychological life. 01:31:41.685 --> 01:31:43.125 But it's not the be all and end all. 01:31:43.125 --> 01:31:44.345 It's not the only thing. 01:31:46.740 --> 01:31:53.000 I I've always been encouraged by the work of people like, oh, what's his name? 01:31:53.060 --> 01:32:04.665 Alexander Lauria and, the the, the British neurologist wrote the man who is Oliver Sacks. 01:32:07.045 --> 01:32:08.965 In order to understand Oliver Sacks. 01:32:08.965 --> 01:32:09.205 Right. 01:32:09.205 --> 01:32:09.525 Yes. 01:32:09.525 --> 01:32:10.200 Oliver Sacks. 01:32:10.280 --> 01:32:14.380 In order to understand the brain, you have to understand what the person is doing. 01:32:14.840 --> 01:32:16.460 That's from Oliver Sacks. 01:32:18.200 --> 01:32:30.135 And there also is evidence that by stimulating the brain, all kinds of things that we you'd only certain things get stimulated, memories and things of that kind. 01:32:30.355 --> 01:32:32.755 But you don't have intellectual concepts. 01:32:32.755 --> 01:32:36.215 You don't have a crisis of mathematics. 01:32:36.515 --> 01:32:43.290 You don't have many of the higher level things that we that are purely mental do not Right. 01:32:43.490 --> 01:32:48.390 Be capable of being stored in the brain or elicited by stimulation of the brain. 01:32:48.690 --> 01:32:49.010 Right. 01:32:49.010 --> 01:32:49.410 Right. 01:32:49.410 --> 01:32:50.950 But this is the basic issue. 01:32:51.330 --> 01:33:09.005 Over and over again, when we argue for the soul, we'll be arguing that the brain, although it may be involved in some modest or significant way, is not the whole story that there is more that we expand reason beyond the material. 01:33:10.920 --> 01:33:11.420 Mhmm. 01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:19.400 Well, here's the comment I wanted to get to. 01:33:19.400 --> 01:33:22.440 I think Christian psychology has been going on longer than you said. 01:33:22.440 --> 01:33:26.295 It went to John Cassian and his mentor, Vagrius. 01:33:26.515 --> 01:33:27.235 What do you think? 01:33:27.235 --> 01:33:27.875 Oh, yeah. 01:33:27.875 --> 01:33:28.935 Cassian is great. 01:33:29.235 --> 01:33:49.660 Cassian was a contemporary of Augustine, but I I think Cassian's introspection, his his analysis of the the eight flaws, which included, sadia is is first rate stuff. 01:33:50.040 --> 01:33:51.825 And Evagrius is good as well. 01:33:51.905 --> 01:34:03.605 All all of those there there's the the desert fathers and mothers have an important place in the history of of the psychology that we're trying to do. 01:34:05.680 --> 01:34:10.420 I also would recommend twelfth century Cistercians, Bernard of Clairvaux. 01:34:10.880 --> 01:34:11.380 Yes. 01:34:11.440 --> 01:34:17.380 Example on on pride and humility, all root of Revaux, spiritual friendship. 01:34:18.885 --> 01:34:21.865 They they had a wonderful understanding of of love. 01:34:22.405 --> 01:34:25.305 Their their analysis of love is just is really important. 01:34:25.445 --> 01:34:32.970 So that's that's another high highlight high spot in the in the history of of Christian psychology. 01:34:35.270 --> 01:34:37.690 I came across something that's also relevant. 01:34:38.310 --> 01:34:48.855 Many of you know that cognitive behavioral psychology was sort of seen as a form of was interpreted as a form of stoicism, you know, modern form of it. 01:34:48.995 --> 01:34:55.255 But we got some a young man searching for his name now, Kent, could we come up with it? 01:34:55.475 --> 01:35:01.480 He had a dissertation on what the stoics actually, what what they actually taught. 01:35:01.780 --> 01:35:04.840 And the all those most of the popular stoics had a theology. 01:35:05.780 --> 01:35:06.260 Mhmm. 01:35:06.260 --> 01:35:07.480 That was part of it. 01:35:07.540 --> 01:35:20.855 And that's during the time of, you know, the third, fourth, you know, the probably from around sec two centuries BC to three or four centuries, after the birth of Christ. 01:35:21.075 --> 01:35:27.335 So the Stoics had a theology involved in their, psychology. 01:35:29.920 --> 01:35:30.420 Yes. 01:35:31.280 --> 01:35:31.780 Yeah. 01:35:32.880 --> 01:35:33.360 Yeah. 01:35:33.360 --> 01:35:39.780 Stoicism is really interesting, form of ancient thought because it was explicitly therapeutic. 01:35:40.480 --> 01:35:40.980 Yes. 01:35:42.615 --> 01:35:50.795 And so a a lot of a lot I think a lot of, good recurrent psychology owes a lot to the stoics. 01:35:52.695 --> 01:36:03.080 And they did have a they did have a they did effect they did have a, an impact on, cash and slot, for example. 01:36:05.780 --> 01:36:06.280 Yeah. 01:36:07.780 --> 01:36:08.260 Okay. 01:36:08.260 --> 01:36:08.980 Let's see. 01:36:08.980 --> 01:36:10.680 Are there other questions here? 01:36:14.245 --> 01:36:17.945 Could you offer what you think is the best intro book to self psychology? 01:36:20.485 --> 01:36:21.225 Good question. 01:36:22.965 --> 01:36:25.545 It depends on which self psychology you wanna say. 01:36:27.010 --> 01:36:30.310 I I would start with Vince's book, Psychology is Religion, for example. 01:36:31.490 --> 01:36:34.790 One, that would be a great book to start with. 01:36:35.570 --> 01:36:35.890 Sure. 01:36:35.890 --> 01:36:37.270 Go out and buy it then. 01:36:37.970 --> 01:36:38.470 Yeah. 01:36:38.765 --> 01:36:39.905 Get the second edition. 01:36:40.125 --> 01:36:44.065 Get the second edition, and I'll make 45ยข on that. 01:36:48.285 --> 01:36:53.960 I also think that you could, anything by Raoul Omay. 01:36:54.020 --> 01:37:02.440 I think of of of those selfless from the mid cent mid twentieth century, Raoul Omay is really, important. 01:37:02.740 --> 01:37:05.560 There's a new bio there's a new biography of Raoul Omay. 01:37:05.845 --> 01:37:12.905 Just came out last year, which is which is a wonderful look into his life and work. 01:37:13.125 --> 01:37:14.745 He's a very complex character. 01:37:18.580 --> 01:37:37.635 But, and then if you really wanna go to get to the good stuff, read the two essays that he wrote in the in the book Existence in 1958, which was an introduction of experiment of, excuse me, existential psychology to to North Americans. 01:37:39.535 --> 01:37:43.155 And, May's contributions are the clearest. 01:37:43.855 --> 01:37:51.700 You really had a gift for speak writing in a way that people could understand. 01:37:54.080 --> 01:37:58.740 And, so and but that that book also contains other people that are important. 01:37:59.085 --> 01:38:05.905 So of of the of the self psychologist, I think the existential psychologists are the most important. 01:38:06.525 --> 01:38:06.845 Right. 01:38:06.845 --> 01:38:08.765 Maybe maybe a book by Frankl then. 01:38:08.765 --> 01:38:09.405 I don't know. 01:38:09.405 --> 01:38:12.330 Frankl, man's search for meaning, of course Yeah. 01:38:12.690 --> 01:38:13.750 Is is really good. 01:38:13.810 --> 01:38:27.775 And I and I also, strongly recommend anything by Adrienne Van Camp, especially, the art of existential counseling, which I think is is is an important contribution. 01:38:31.195 --> 01:38:34.315 So, anyway so, Paul, did you have any other you wanted to recommend? 01:38:34.315 --> 01:38:35.195 I no. 01:38:35.195 --> 01:38:38.655 I well, maybe something by Viktor Frankl. 01:38:39.115 --> 01:38:39.615 Yeah. 01:38:40.230 --> 01:38:43.210 But, that's the existential self notion. 01:38:45.030 --> 01:38:59.815 But you might even wanna read some critiques of of Carl Rogers and people like that who were more extreme and and and I think somewhat simple minded about what they thought of as the self. 01:39:02.275 --> 01:39:02.775 Yeah. 01:39:03.235 --> 01:39:07.175 But that's all I have to say on on where you'd get your introduction. 01:39:09.100 --> 01:39:09.300 Yeah. 01:39:09.300 --> 01:39:10.720 You should read my book. 01:39:11.180 --> 01:39:12.000 That's right. 01:39:12.140 --> 01:39:13.120 Let's see. 01:39:22.155 --> 01:39:30.975 I was wondering in a practical way how practitioners can apply this work, rejection of selfism, with clients to help them understand themselves. 01:39:31.435 --> 01:39:38.100 What might this look like with non Christian clients who don't hold the same values same view of values and virtue. 01:39:40.440 --> 01:39:50.580 I'm not I'm not a therapist, so I don't have a a fund of great insights to offer you there. 01:39:51.055 --> 01:40:02.435 But, you know, the the with as I understand it, you always start with where people are and and let the and let them show you the way that they need to go. 01:40:05.950 --> 01:40:08.370 That that's my my comment on that one. 01:40:12.110 --> 01:40:20.295 I guess I would say that, always let them know that from your perspective, all all people have great worth. 01:40:20.295 --> 01:40:23.435 You don't need to tell them it's because they're made in the image of God. 01:40:24.215 --> 01:40:29.900 But that everyone's self in that sense is a part of the image of God. 01:40:29.900 --> 01:40:50.645 The problem is they have to find what I call better than self worship, more like a form of truthful self acceptance, which means love or, you know, most Christianity assumes self love, you know, love your neighbor as yourself, or we we look after ourself. 01:40:51.025 --> 01:40:56.245 In the scriptures, they'll talk about a a husband should look after his wife as though he's part of himself. 01:40:57.400 --> 01:41:06.220 They mean the same thing of in terms of self love is a natural phenomenon that we should always, then apply to others and then to God. 01:41:06.920 --> 01:41:16.915 But so they want to expand love from just on the self to, not that that's wrong, but to to put it onto the other and onto God. 01:41:20.015 --> 01:41:20.515 Mhmm. 01:41:21.375 --> 01:41:26.370 You don't have to say put it onto God for the non believing client, but on to others. 01:41:26.370 --> 01:41:26.870 Yes. 01:41:27.570 --> 01:41:36.310 Self gift is a very important idea that's a secular that is capable of a secular, understanding. 01:41:37.395 --> 01:41:37.895 Yeah. 01:41:39.235 --> 01:41:48.615 One of our predecessors in the twentieth century was Thomas Werner Moore, who succeeded, pace as in the psychology department at Catholic U. 01:41:49.490 --> 01:41:54.070 And, he, you know, he of course, religion was important to him. 01:41:54.210 --> 01:41:56.630 Moore was a priest. 01:41:57.570 --> 01:42:01.590 He founded a Benedictine Abbey in in Washington DC in the mid twenties. 01:42:01.890 --> 01:42:05.805 He was he was a psychologist, and he he's also a psychiatrist. 01:42:06.505 --> 01:42:13.165 He he had the whole whole but he talked about you know? 01:42:15.225 --> 01:42:19.900 He said somebody once asked me, how do you how do you introduce religion into therapy? 01:42:20.920 --> 01:42:26.860 And and his response was, if it's important to the patient, you introduce it. 01:42:27.320 --> 01:42:28.860 You don't force it on you. 01:42:30.295 --> 01:42:39.355 You have to you have to, be true to yourself, but also be you wanna keep them, open to where where they need to go. 01:42:42.070 --> 01:42:53.530 There's an important example of that taking place now, at Harvard, University, in at least at, McLean Hospital. 01:42:54.455 --> 01:43:01.195 There's a Jewish therapist there who just got he was a cognitive behavioral therapist, David Ross Marin. 01:43:02.535 --> 01:43:15.850 And, he found that when he introduced the theological issues that were Jewish to his Jewish patients, they got better, faster, and and, in a way better. 01:43:16.870 --> 01:43:25.825 When he brought in the whatever their theological understanding was, it was often so so important to them that to bring it into the therapy was very important. 01:43:26.445 --> 01:43:37.420 And and he has now published several books advocating this as a way of facilitating mental health in patients and therapy. 01:43:38.360 --> 01:43:39.480 I did not I did not. 01:43:39.480 --> 01:43:40.360 I don't know his work. 01:43:40.360 --> 01:43:41.260 That's very interesting. 01:43:41.640 --> 01:43:42.040 Yeah. 01:43:42.040 --> 01:43:49.480 And and the fact that he was Jewish and the fact that it was at Harvard, we're both all good for it being accepted in a way, if you will. 01:43:49.480 --> 01:43:49.980 Mhmm. 01:43:52.355 --> 01:43:52.595 Yeah. 01:43:52.595 --> 01:43:55.735 I guess well, one final question. 01:43:56.355 --> 01:43:56.855 Yeah. 01:44:03.420 --> 01:44:05.740 It says, atheism is on the rise. 01:44:05.740 --> 01:44:09.760 Is this because sin is not called sin but is a psychological condition? 01:44:11.580 --> 01:44:14.640 Well, sin is is a theological category. 01:44:16.395 --> 01:44:18.335 It would be it would be very interesting. 01:44:18.395 --> 01:44:19.675 I mean, it maybe is being done. 01:44:19.675 --> 01:44:21.135 I just don't know about it. 01:44:21.595 --> 01:44:37.750 But to look and see how sin would be, taken up in an in an in a project integrating psychology and and religious life. 01:44:40.545 --> 01:44:49.685 I know Karl Meninger, or was it Meninger had a what what had a book, whatever happened to sin, and I think that's that's an important question. 01:44:52.560 --> 01:45:16.015 One of the well, to to go refer back to what I what I said in the talk, when May talks about the demonic, he doesn't call it sin, but, it would be easy, I think, to look at what he's saying there and then look at it theologically as he's talking about the role of sin in the life. 01:45:18.155 --> 01:45:29.570 But, for for him, the the demonic is neutral, morally speaking. 01:45:29.570 --> 01:45:42.765 It can be a force for good, but it can also be a force for And and, anyway, that that's that might be a way to begin dialogue about sin in psychological terms. 01:45:43.785 --> 01:45:45.705 I have two comments. 01:45:45.705 --> 01:45:58.760 One is I've shown in a number of a lot of different cases that atheists were strongly influenced by bad or negative fathers or nonexistent fathers. 01:45:58.820 --> 01:45:59.220 Mhmm. 01:45:59.220 --> 01:46:05.320 And, of course, that's on the growth now as family disintegration and things like that are more and more common. 01:46:06.180 --> 01:46:12.015 And second, I was an atheist, so pray for the atheist. 01:46:14.395 --> 01:46:18.655 Maybe people were praying for me that I didn't know, and that's really the biggest cause. 01:46:18.955 --> 01:46:22.155 But I was an atheist until I was roughly about the age of 40. 01:46:22.155 --> 01:46:27.400 And so, certainly, as an experimental psychologist, I was an atheist, and so was my wife. 01:46:27.400 --> 01:46:31.260 We got married as two atheists in 1969. 01:46:32.120 --> 01:46:32.620 Wow. 01:46:33.400 --> 01:46:35.580 So there's always hope even for us. 01:46:39.085 --> 01:46:41.025 I'm glad you were here. 01:46:42.445 --> 01:46:44.225 Well, I'm glad you were there. 01:46:47.645 --> 01:46:50.365 I think we're about finished with the time here for now. 01:46:50.365 --> 01:46:51.265 I think so. 01:46:51.780 --> 01:47:01.160 I don't know I don't know how many people have been with us, but whoever you are out there in Zoom land, thank you for your your presence. 01:47:01.220 --> 01:47:08.925 And if you have any questions that I can answer afterwards, like, through email emailing or or whatever, please let me know. 01:47:08.925 --> 01:47:11.265 I'd be glad to, talk with you. 01:47:12.205 --> 01:47:13.985 And I say the same thing. 01:47:14.765 --> 01:47:17.185 Thank you for your presence, for your participation. 01:47:18.400 --> 01:47:24.660 And, if you have questions further than when we've covered, an email is welcome. 01:47:26.160 --> 01:47:26.660 Absolutely. 01:47:27.840 --> 01:47:28.720 And, again, fine. 01:47:28.720 --> 01:47:29.520 Thank you, Paul. 01:47:29.520 --> 01:47:31.460 I I appreciate all you've done. 01:47:32.075 --> 01:47:33.835 Well, thank you. 01:47:33.835 --> 01:47:36.895 You put in a magnificent amount of time, Bob. 01:47:37.195 --> 01:47:40.255 And so now as they say, adios. 01:47:40.395 --> 01:47:42.495 And, you know, that means to God. 01:47:43.115 --> 01:47:43.515 Yeah. 01:47:43.515 --> 01:47:44.335 That's right. 01:47:45.260 --> 01:47:47.040 Goodbye used to mean that. 01:47:47.180 --> 01:47:48.320 God be with you. 01:47:48.940 --> 01:47:51.760 Goodbye got shortened to goodbye. 01:47:52.540 --> 01:47:53.920 So God be with you. 01:47:53.980 --> 01:47:54.800 God be with you.