WEBVTT 00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:11.540 Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast. 00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:18.995 My name is Thomas Kronquist, and I am your cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University. 00:00:18.995 --> 00:00:20.675 Father Charles, how are you doing today? 00:00:20.675 --> 00:00:20.995 Great. 00:00:20.995 --> 00:00:26.615 Looking forward to learning, more and more about this great field of mental health and counseling. 00:00:27.010 --> 00:00:36.850 Well, today we have doctor Cathy Erwin again, and we're gonna continue talking about, gerontological counseling and all that's involved there, its importance. 00:00:37.410 --> 00:00:39.010 Doctor Erwin, how are you today? 00:00:39.010 --> 00:00:40.065 Welcome to the show. 00:00:40.305 --> 00:00:41.345 Well, I'm doing great. 00:00:41.345 --> 00:00:48.805 And thank you so much for taking this topic on, to highlight the need for working with our older adults. 00:00:49.265 --> 00:00:50.545 Well, tell us a little bit more. 00:00:50.545 --> 00:01:06.705 Let's, kinda revisit where we were in the last podcast, about gerontological counseling, why it's important, what are the, what are the ways that can be done well and and maybe not done so well, and, where we need to go with it. 00:01:07.105 --> 00:01:12.965 Well, actually, I started into this by not knowing what I was doing and not doing it well and having to go and figure it out. 00:01:13.105 --> 00:01:20.325 Very briefly, I have, of course, a master's in counseling as is the program that we teach in here at Divine Mercy and the doctorate in counseling psychology. 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.080 And I'm a better than average therapist on most days, especially in group work. 00:01:25.080 --> 00:01:30.520 So I had a friend ask me to come out to an older adult complex and do group work, and I did. 00:01:30.520 --> 00:01:31.660 And it was a disaster. 00:01:31.720 --> 00:01:38.085 I was a complete failure because I was doing group work that was really not related to their needs. 00:01:38.465 --> 00:01:41.265 And so I went looking for how do I do this thing. 00:01:41.265 --> 00:01:52.100 I only found two authors on the subject, doctor Robert Butler, who was really considered one of the key figures in gerontological counseling, who was an MD, and doctor Irene Burnside, a nurse practitioner. 00:01:52.160 --> 00:01:55.380 Those are the only two works that existed at that time. 00:01:55.600 --> 00:02:03.700 So I had to learn by doing a good way sometime, and that came to be one of my group techniques for aging adults books. 00:02:04.275 --> 00:02:06.515 I was the third in the field to do this. 00:02:06.515 --> 00:02:11.975 Now, blessedly, there are a lot more because I didn't understand aging cohorts at all, Tom. 00:02:12.995 --> 00:02:15.255 Have you heard those terms, aging cohorts? 00:02:15.955 --> 00:02:16.195 No. 00:02:16.195 --> 00:02:16.775 I haven't. 00:02:17.090 --> 00:02:18.390 Nobody else is either. 00:02:18.930 --> 00:02:20.310 So you are not alone. 00:02:20.450 --> 00:02:22.210 And here's how I like to explain it. 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:23.190 Think high school. 00:02:23.410 --> 00:02:26.550 Remember when you were a freshman, you thought you were cool? 00:02:27.010 --> 00:02:29.910 The seniors did not think you were cool at all. 00:02:30.285 --> 00:02:33.745 And then when you got to be a senior, you knew why freshmen weren't cool. 00:02:33.965 --> 00:02:40.065 You were in the same place doing something similar, but, basically, you didn't have everything in common. 00:02:40.685 --> 00:02:42.785 And that's what I learned about older adults. 00:02:43.160 --> 00:02:52.780 The cohorts of older adults, those who are sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, and above are just like the cohorts of high school. 00:02:53.160 --> 00:03:09.815 And so those who are in their sixties have one interest in music and art and books and TV and movies, and they'll very quickly tell you, if they did me, that's my mother's music he brought for 80 year old people, not 60 year old people. 00:03:10.310 --> 00:03:19.450 And that is something nobody taught me in either of my master's or my doctoral degrees, and I think we're missing that boat too often, in our profession. 00:03:20.230 --> 00:03:26.355 What kind of, particular needs do you see with the with the elderly, counseling the elderly? 00:03:26.575 --> 00:03:29.075 How are they, in what ways are they distinct? 00:03:29.535 --> 00:03:33.155 Well, actually, they're just an older version of us. 00:03:34.175 --> 00:03:42.980 And the the needs, however, do vary by some people who are in their older ages will have more physical issues to deal with. 00:03:42.980 --> 00:03:45.480 Some will have more cognitive issues to deal with. 00:03:45.940 --> 00:04:05.430 But there's a broad assumption that if you are, quote, old, whatever you think old is and as one of my clients used to say, I don't know what old is, but it's older than me, and I think that's how most folks feel, then there's a presumption that being older means being inefficient, incompetent, and less valuable. 00:04:05.570 --> 00:04:09.030 And, yes, it's even in our churches, they are treated that way. 00:04:09.650 --> 00:04:10.470 That's sad. 00:04:11.330 --> 00:04:11.570 Yeah. 00:04:11.570 --> 00:04:15.650 So you see this would you how you broke it down sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties. 00:04:15.650 --> 00:04:27.015 Are those sort of the every ten years you would make these distinctions, or or how would you how do you go about getting a feel for the room, so to speak, in in these different age groups? 00:04:27.475 --> 00:04:32.280 Well, the importance of age cohorts is just as I gave the example of high school. 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:39.020 What would be of an interest to a high school freshman would not necessarily be of interest to a high school senior or not quite in the same way. 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:46.520 And so if we just lump everybody who's over 60 into one category of old people and, frankly, before I learned this, I did that too. 00:04:46.520 --> 00:04:47.180 I'm guilty. 00:04:48.165 --> 00:04:56.005 There isn't one category because by age cohorts, there are interest, interest in music, interest in even look at worship. 00:04:56.005 --> 00:05:01.785 Look how worship has changed in the years of people who are now 60 and those who are now 80 or 90. 00:05:02.190 --> 00:05:05.010 Even that is is is a variation for them. 00:05:05.150 --> 00:05:06.750 Obviously, the gospel hasn't changed. 00:05:06.750 --> 00:05:09.330 The message hasn't changed, but styles have changed. 00:05:09.790 --> 00:05:13.570 And so they become interested in that which is familiar. 00:05:13.710 --> 00:05:16.210 And don't we all do that anyway at any age? 00:05:16.355 --> 00:05:26.295 So we have to think about how can we minister to people, how can we counsel people, and be attentive to their ages just as we are in younger ages. 00:05:27.075 --> 00:05:28.535 We may work with a teenager. 00:05:28.755 --> 00:05:30.935 We may work with a college student. 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:38.300 They are of a different age generation in terms of age cohorts, maybe not a large difference, but there's definitely a difference. 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:48.565 I'm wondering, how is how important is it for family to have contact with the elderly? 00:05:49.825 --> 00:05:58.725 How is that how does that affect their, their mental status, their their emotional, condition? 00:05:59.425 --> 00:06:07.760 I my my wife and I, we took care of my my mother when she was, older, and she lived with us for eight years. 00:06:07.820 --> 00:06:17.155 And, since we did not put her into an assisted living, and we saw that interaction with the family was very seemed very, very helpful at times. 00:06:18.095 --> 00:06:21.155 Do you see that too, in your in your counseling? 00:06:22.015 --> 00:06:30.170 Well, with older adults, and that's what we generally refer to in the term as older adults is, you know, these are just people with a lot of life experience. 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:31.850 They still have interest. 00:06:32.150 --> 00:06:34.470 They still want to be with friends. 00:06:34.470 --> 00:06:36.810 They wanna be with their own age group sometime. 00:06:36.870 --> 00:06:38.490 Not I mean, family's wonderful. 00:06:38.550 --> 00:06:39.050 Yes. 00:06:39.430 --> 00:06:47.775 But remember, our friends are our age group, and their friends are gonna start to die out, unfortunately, or perhaps move away. 00:06:47.995 --> 00:06:52.575 So where can we find other types of age cohort interest? 00:06:52.795 --> 00:06:58.095 A really easy one is a lot of areas have a program called neighborly senior services. 00:06:58.730 --> 00:07:06.730 And with neighborly senior services, there's a congregate dining at in many cities, not smaller ones, but sometimes larger cities, then maybe some smaller. 00:07:06.730 --> 00:07:07.550 I'm not sure. 00:07:07.850 --> 00:07:11.310 And that gives them an opportunity to go and do congregate dining. 00:07:11.755 --> 00:07:12.555 They have lunch. 00:07:12.555 --> 00:07:13.515 They have a program. 00:07:13.515 --> 00:07:15.055 They have people to talk with. 00:07:15.675 --> 00:07:19.295 And my question is, why don't we do more of that in our churches? 00:07:19.675 --> 00:07:21.455 Why do we leave that to the world? 00:07:22.315 --> 00:07:29.810 We may have a senior adult program, but it doesn't have to just be we're all gonna sit down and do a craft or go on a trip. 00:07:30.030 --> 00:07:31.890 Let's have a regular dining experience. 00:07:32.030 --> 00:07:39.570 Let's have just a get together and make our churches a place of welcome for them for more than just the service. 00:07:40.745 --> 00:07:44.825 Loneliness can be one of the problems that people face as they get older. 00:07:44.825 --> 00:07:55.725 And, what are some of the what are some of the more you know, you mentioned and I don't know if this is part of it too, but, you know, the how the world kinda devalues people who are as they get older, they think they're all the same. 00:07:56.320 --> 00:08:02.400 Maybe they're, you know, they're retired and there's a lack of a sense of purpose. 00:08:02.400 --> 00:08:07.220 What are some of the why do people wanna go and get involved in counseling groups and group therapy? 00:08:07.440 --> 00:08:08.880 What are some of the main reasons? 00:08:08.880 --> 00:08:15.195 Are they the same as for younger people or they're kinda you see more frequency of of different kinds of issues that they bring up? 00:08:15.415 --> 00:08:23.675 Well, we often divide that into community dwelling elders and, assisted living or other living community elders. 00:08:24.090 --> 00:08:32.670 Community dwelling elders actually have the greater propensity for depression, if you look at the statistics, than do those living in a congregate facility. 00:08:33.050 --> 00:08:33.790 They're isolated. 00:08:34.570 --> 00:08:36.590 Sometimes it may be an older couple. 00:08:36.730 --> 00:08:38.830 One person is taking care of the other. 00:08:39.055 --> 00:08:45.395 They may no longer be able to drive, which, of course, limits their socialization, and their friends start to die. 00:08:45.775 --> 00:08:50.595 The one who is left at the end and my mother-in-law went through that. 00:08:50.990 --> 00:08:59.970 She when her third of there was a girl the girlfriend group of four that did everything together when they were younger on into the older ages, and then she was the survivor. 00:09:00.670 --> 00:09:04.530 And she didn't want to to to do anything else because her group was gone. 00:09:04.775 --> 00:09:18.955 And we tried really hard to get her to meet new friends, which is another thing that sometimes happens with the older old, eighties and nineties, is they don't want to meet new friends because they know they're gonna lose those friends, and it's only a matter of time. 00:09:19.160 --> 00:09:25.500 You see that a lot in elder care homes where people become very retreating or very reclusive. 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:30.460 They just they they just know that the friendship is not gonna last. 00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:31.720 But we have to keep trying. 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:32.780 We can't give up. 00:09:32.945 --> 00:09:35.505 What degree would a would a faith perspective help? 00:09:35.505 --> 00:09:35.825 Right? 00:09:35.825 --> 00:09:36.785 Because Mhmm. 00:09:37.105 --> 00:09:46.320 You think about it, and I'm sure this is not so easy when you're in that situation, but, it's it's not that it the real point is these friendships will last. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:46.560 Right? 00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:47.920 It's not just about this world. 00:09:47.920 --> 00:09:52.580 When you're you're making eternal friendships and maybe supporting each other in this very difficult time. 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:57.300 Is that something you can help a person in that situation? 00:09:57.680 --> 00:09:58.180 Absolutely. 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.975 Now there are some elder care homes that are faith based, and so they would have more activities that are faith centered. 00:10:04.355 --> 00:10:07.335 But, typically, what you see is they rotate. 00:10:08.435 --> 00:10:16.855 Every Sunday, a pastor will come in, a priest will come in, someone else will come in, and there might be a brief service, but then the folks just leave. 00:10:17.690 --> 00:10:27.550 So, you know, my encouragement to every church is if if you are if if you're a priest or your pastor is coming in to do a service, bring some other people with you. 00:10:27.850 --> 00:10:29.370 Stay afterwards and chat. 00:10:29.370 --> 00:10:38.155 Don't just do your service and walk out, because it just they need that connection, and faith connection means showing that they are valued. 00:10:38.375 --> 00:10:50.310 And so many older adults, especially those who have outlived their partners, maybe sometimes outlived their children, no longer feel that they have value even in God's eyes, and that's heartbreaking. 00:10:51.410 --> 00:11:03.945 One of the things that, we dealt with when we were taking care of my mother was she would become upset because as time went on, she was able to do less and less, and she and she needed more and more. 00:11:03.945 --> 00:11:07.825 It was almost as though she was becoming a child again in certain ways. 00:11:07.825 --> 00:11:08.145 Mhmm. 00:11:08.145 --> 00:11:08.545 Yes. 00:11:08.545 --> 00:11:21.580 And what are the ways maybe you can deal with that kind of I'm not sure if it's pride or if it's just panic or what is it, but, not responding well to the fact that you become more and more dependent as you get older. 00:11:21.880 --> 00:11:27.495 Well, I have never seen anybody who likes the idea of becoming more dependent regardless of age. 00:11:27.875 --> 00:11:36.455 And when it is age related and that individual is not cognitively impaired, then he or she knows fully well it's only gonna get worse. 00:11:36.995 --> 00:11:39.235 So the question is, what can we do? 00:11:39.235 --> 00:11:40.855 And I suggest this to families. 00:11:41.250 --> 00:11:48.450 What kind of of tasks can this person do to feel valued in the in the home? 00:11:48.450 --> 00:11:50.390 And maybe it's folding laundry. 00:11:50.850 --> 00:11:56.985 Maybe it's, you know, sitting down with listening to the children read if they have reading to do when they come home. 00:11:57.465 --> 00:11:59.245 Give a sense of purpose. 00:11:59.545 --> 00:12:06.125 And now that's a lot harder to do in an elder care home because there are so many people to take care of at once. 00:12:06.425 --> 00:12:09.325 But just realize we all want a sense of purpose. 00:12:09.465 --> 00:12:11.645 That doesn't stop because you get older. 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:16.500 Your ability to fulfill that person purpose stops, and that is so frustrating. 00:12:16.560 --> 00:12:20.260 And I and that is what I have seen as a significant part of depression. 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:20.880 Yes. 00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:22.960 Older adults can be clinically depressed. 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.780 I've had this argument with psychiatrists so many times. 00:12:26.045 --> 00:12:27.505 They say, well, they're old. 00:12:27.565 --> 00:12:27.805 Sure. 00:12:27.805 --> 00:12:28.545 They're depressed. 00:12:28.605 --> 00:12:29.105 Okay. 00:12:30.205 --> 00:12:34.205 And, you know, that's about the time I I found this one particular one and said, okay. 00:12:34.205 --> 00:12:37.505 Let me give you these I have a client, woman, 40 years old. 00:12:37.805 --> 00:12:38.705 Here's the symptoms. 00:12:38.910 --> 00:12:39.470 What do you think? 00:12:39.470 --> 00:12:40.590 Well, we need to treat this. 00:12:40.590 --> 00:12:41.230 We need to do that. 00:12:41.230 --> 00:12:42.190 And I go, oh, excuse me. 00:12:42.190 --> 00:12:42.930 I misspoke. 00:12:43.310 --> 00:12:44.530 She's 72. 00:12:44.910 --> 00:12:45.870 Oh, well, that's different. 00:12:45.870 --> 00:12:46.670 We don't need to treat. 00:12:46.670 --> 00:12:49.150 I go, excuse me. 00:12:49.150 --> 00:12:49.870 Excuse me. 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:51.330 The symptoms are the same. 00:12:51.905 --> 00:12:59.365 Why do you not want to care about treating a person 72 when you cared when you thought they were 42? 00:13:00.065 --> 00:13:06.725 And so we have some of that ageism feeling, in the medical and the counseling community, and it breaks my heart. 00:13:07.430 --> 00:13:08.810 We've gotta get out of that. 00:13:09.350 --> 00:13:13.030 What are some of the there's a great you you mentioned purpose in the sense of purpose. 00:13:13.030 --> 00:13:13.350 Mhmm. 00:13:13.350 --> 00:13:20.170 So what what are some good helpful strategies with with folks to to work with oh, we don't know older people. 00:13:20.310 --> 00:13:24.595 And, you know, they kinda feel like, well, I'm ready I'm ready to go to you know, I'm ready. 00:13:24.595 --> 00:13:27.555 I you know, I'm so you know, I I I'm ready to move on. 00:13:27.555 --> 00:13:28.755 And Mhmm. 00:13:29.555 --> 00:13:37.400 How do we get them, though, to see that there is purpose even in simple things or maybe, strategy that help that? 00:13:37.780 --> 00:13:41.560 Well, first of all, think about what is possible to do. 00:13:42.180 --> 00:13:43.860 What is physically possible? 00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:49.305 A person who may not be able to walk is not gonna be able to do some of the things another person will. 00:13:49.625 --> 00:13:52.445 Maybe it's, you know again, it's it's simple tasks. 00:13:52.745 --> 00:14:16.300 It can also be and that's was the basis of my group techniques for aging adults, is having some groups that have a therapeutic basis but also draw out things like my modalities for spirituality, for life review, for having my older group develop the some of the writing, talk about favorite memories, and then give that to their families as something special. 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:30.355 And for an older adult at home, we have the perfect opportunity, my goodness, even on our cell phones, is to sit down and ask your grandparent, you know, what was some of the favorite traditions when you were growing up at Christmas? 00:14:30.355 --> 00:14:36.020 What was your what was the most important first faith tradition that you participated in? 00:14:36.020 --> 00:14:39.160 You know, think about these things and tell that story. 00:14:39.620 --> 00:14:52.355 Older adults enjoy reminiscing or remembering the story, and it's it's a treasure that so many of us didn't have when our grandparents passed years before we had that ability. 00:14:52.895 --> 00:14:54.095 This is a true treasure. 00:14:54.095 --> 00:14:59.610 We need to treat it like a treasure and not just, oh, well, grandma's talking about the same old thing again. 00:14:59.690 --> 00:14:59.850 Yes. 00:14:59.850 --> 00:15:00.410 She is. 00:15:00.410 --> 00:15:02.830 But, you know, I have young clients who do that too. 00:15:03.210 --> 00:15:13.855 One of the things that we saw taking care of my mother is, the importance of letting her know or seeing that she's still important to the family. 00:15:13.915 --> 00:15:14.315 Mhmm. 00:15:14.315 --> 00:15:14.555 Yes. 00:15:14.555 --> 00:15:26.575 You might not be able to fold clothes or do whatever, wash dishes or whatever, you know, small task might be available, but just giving her the sense that she is an important part of the family. 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:34.120 And, you said listening to her life experiences, but also maybe asking for advice at times. 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.320 You talked about how they have a wealth of experience Yes. 00:15:37.400 --> 00:15:38.520 Asking for advice. 00:15:38.520 --> 00:15:44.605 Now you might not take their advice, you know, but at least you listen and you weigh it. 00:15:44.605 --> 00:15:48.625 And they get the sense that they get the sense that you're listening to them. 00:15:48.765 --> 00:15:49.985 How important is that? 00:15:50.045 --> 00:16:01.810 Well, it's as important to them as it is to any of us because one thing that we know is that, at least in most cultural context, when you are listened to, you are considered valuable. 00:16:02.750 --> 00:16:06.030 And so if we fail to listen or we wanna, oh, yeah, mom. 00:16:06.030 --> 00:16:07.150 I heard that story before. 00:16:07.150 --> 00:16:07.310 Yeah. 00:16:07.310 --> 00:16:08.290 We know what happens. 00:16:08.625 --> 00:16:12.065 When we don't listen to people, we devalue them. 00:16:12.065 --> 00:16:13.685 And, yes, there's gonna be repetition. 00:16:14.305 --> 00:16:15.045 That happens. 00:16:15.985 --> 00:16:27.540 But listening is so important, and I can't tell you how many nuggets of wisdom I have gained from listening to my older adult clients, really more than I imagined. 00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:35.240 I sometimes feel like they give me more than I give them, and I think that's but in family, it's harder, again, because it's easier to get frustrated. 00:16:35.300 --> 00:16:39.135 Well, mom, you I I've heard that story since I was, you know, 20 years old. 00:16:40.095 --> 00:16:41.475 And, you know, patience. 00:16:42.175 --> 00:16:47.475 It it is so important and so valuable and so therapeutic, frankly. 00:16:48.095 --> 00:16:48.495 Yeah. 00:16:48.495 --> 00:16:49.715 Listening is important. 00:16:49.855 --> 00:16:50.175 Right? 00:16:50.175 --> 00:17:00.800 And, I would guess, would it also be helpful for younger people when when they are, you know, benefiting from that wisdom and advice that they tell them, hey. 00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:02.300 I'm so glad you told me that. 00:17:02.300 --> 00:17:09.155 That's very helpful, you know, or or I didn't understand, some of the things about our family history. 00:17:09.155 --> 00:17:11.475 Now that that's I'm so glad you you did that. 00:17:11.475 --> 00:17:12.075 So Yes. 00:17:12.275 --> 00:17:24.910 That they can understand that they do have a purpose and that they are, you know, certainly contributing to everybody and really passing on that wisdom is such a great to be a vocation, you could say. 00:17:25.370 --> 00:17:27.790 Somewhere, our culture changed for the worst. 00:17:28.650 --> 00:17:34.650 In in generations past, older adults were valued, and listening to them was valued. 00:17:34.650 --> 00:17:41.545 And the grandchildren respected and honored them, And we don't do that anymore. 00:17:42.725 --> 00:17:49.225 Our culture has changed to say, well, if you're old and you can't do certain things, then your value as a human is less. 00:17:49.925 --> 00:17:55.580 And that leads us down to a real slippery slope that that we need to talk about more in our faith tradition. 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:01.100 There's a lot of attention on abortion, and I'm not saying that that's not a good idea. 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:04.780 But there's that other side of life, and that's euthanasia. 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:11.915 And when we devalue any group of people, then society can do what it wants to do. 00:18:12.215 --> 00:18:15.195 And there are other countries where euthanasia is legal. 00:18:16.295 --> 00:18:24.750 This discussion comes up in our nation periodically, and that is a devalue to me, a severe devaluation of human life. 00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:29.250 And I really wish that we'd get more concerned about that. 00:18:29.870 --> 00:18:39.165 Because as life goes longer and people live longer with conditions like dementia and Parkinson's and others, there are families who get frustrated and say, nah. 00:18:39.165 --> 00:18:41.025 You know, they're just not really useful. 00:18:41.885 --> 00:18:44.045 Not to mention those that have nefarious intents. 00:18:44.045 --> 00:18:45.345 They want grandma's money. 00:18:45.965 --> 00:18:50.545 That's an issue that I I just wish our faith community would get more concerned about. 00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:59.660 It's a great point you make because, usually, you know, all seems to me, all the pro lifers and Chris were, oh, yeah. 00:18:59.660 --> 00:19:01.360 We're all we're we're against euthanasia. 00:19:02.060 --> 00:19:03.580 But it's kinda like we throw it in there. 00:19:03.580 --> 00:19:03.900 Yeah. 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:05.260 Conception to natural death. 00:19:05.260 --> 00:19:09.755 And then we kinda don't always, we think more about the front end, which which is critically important. 00:19:09.755 --> 00:19:17.275 But at the same time, when we do a disservice to the entire cause of life and we sort of discount Mhmm. 00:19:17.435 --> 00:19:29.000 The importance of protecting life at the final stages, where we're almost kind of agreeing with the secular mentality, well, these people aren't worth it anymore. 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:30.900 So we sort of put them on the side. 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.140 And That is a serious issue. 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:36.020 And, you know, we're we're there in my family. 00:19:36.020 --> 00:19:37.720 I my husband has dementia. 00:19:38.405 --> 00:19:41.145 It's difficult, and it's getting more difficult. 00:19:41.925 --> 00:19:45.205 But all you know, God decides these things. 00:19:45.205 --> 00:19:48.345 We don't get to decide them, and all life has value. 00:19:48.405 --> 00:19:52.425 The value is different because the ability to participate in life is different. 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:57.040 And so we we work with that, and it is challenging. 00:19:57.040 --> 00:20:00.740 I've taught families about dementia for years, and now, literally, I'm living it. 00:20:00.800 --> 00:20:07.465 So and by the way, those of you who are listening, just because I know a lot about this doesn't make it easier, in case you wondered. 00:20:07.845 --> 00:20:10.825 In fact, sometimes it might be harder because I know too much. 00:20:11.205 --> 00:20:24.000 But this is the one thing I do know, and I knew this when I was writing about it and when I've been working with staff about it, because you value is there where you find it, but it's only there if you try to find it. 00:20:24.620 --> 00:20:31.040 And it's going to be different, and the person that you're with is gonna is going to lose some skills over time and be frustrated. 00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:34.800 And you have to do what I tell my counseling students. 00:20:35.260 --> 00:20:36.240 Tell your face. 00:20:36.935 --> 00:20:38.795 Don't let your face show frustration. 00:20:39.015 --> 00:20:47.435 Don't let your face show disappointment because even people in dementia who lose words don't lose the idea of seeing how you look. 00:20:47.655 --> 00:20:52.910 So when you look at them with disgust and frustration, they pick up on that really easily. 00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:59.790 So tell your face and just remember that but for the grace of God, someday, that might be you. 00:20:59.850 --> 00:21:01.610 How do you want somebody to treat you? 00:21:01.610 --> 00:21:03.610 That's what I tell tell caregiving families. 00:21:03.610 --> 00:21:06.715 How would you want this if you were on the other side? 00:21:07.175 --> 00:21:08.955 I think the answer might be different. 00:21:09.015 --> 00:21:10.055 And, yes, it's hard. 00:21:10.055 --> 00:21:12.075 That's why caregiver groups are important. 00:21:12.935 --> 00:21:17.815 Seems like one of the cultural pressures today that, you talked about how culture has changed. 00:21:17.815 --> 00:21:18.295 Mhmm. 00:21:18.295 --> 00:21:28.720 We've become so mobile, and we don't we don't generally speaking, we don't stay in one place for long periods of time. 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:29.360 We're moving. 00:21:29.360 --> 00:21:31.380 Families are moving, changing jobs. 00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:37.325 And to, and it it's it's a pressure to kind of break up families. 00:21:37.325 --> 00:21:39.425 Those that can't keep up don't come. 00:21:39.805 --> 00:21:47.140 My my, my father-in-law worked for one company for forty years up in New York, Upstate New York. 00:21:47.140 --> 00:21:48.600 He was a chemist for Xerox. 00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:51.480 And, who does that anymore? 00:21:51.540 --> 00:21:52.020 You know? 00:21:52.020 --> 00:21:57.160 And they can build there's an extended family built around him that grew up around him. 00:21:57.300 --> 00:22:08.465 But most of us are on the move, and it's it's it's more of a challenge, I think, to bring extended family with you. 00:22:09.645 --> 00:22:19.980 So what what could be other cultures don't, you know, other cultures not all all cultures have the same mobility, problems or challenges. 00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:21.660 How how how do you deal with that? 00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:23.980 I mean, that's the way our culture is today. 00:22:23.980 --> 00:22:28.240 How do you how does that affect the the the, the elderly? 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:39.895 Well, it is very difficult, because families are not living down the street from each other like they formally did or wanting to maybe everybody moves over to grandma's house to help take care of grandma. 00:22:39.895 --> 00:22:41.355 That's not common today. 00:22:41.655 --> 00:22:50.700 And so I've talked about before with family groups is that there are sometimes caregivers who are on the scene, and there can you can still be a distance caregiver. 00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:59.200 Now that sounds like an oxymoron at first, but there are times when family members live elsewhere because they are their jobs, they're in the military. 00:22:59.260 --> 00:23:01.845 Whatever the reason is, they can't be in the same place. 00:23:01.845 --> 00:23:03.305 They can't pick up and move. 00:23:04.005 --> 00:23:17.480 But there's a lot of there's a lot more services now in many communities, caregiving services, visiting services, and an underutilized resource for families is the area agency on aging. 00:23:18.260 --> 00:23:23.400 Every major metropolitan area has a headquarters on area agency on aging. 00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:27.400 It may not be in your immediate city, but look for the nearest large city. 00:23:27.635 --> 00:23:35.735 There are so many services available through area agency on aging that you can get for your older adult who's living with you even. 00:23:36.195 --> 00:23:43.060 But, definitely, you can help to arrange, those sorts of services and others if you are a distance caregiver. 00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:47.860 And at times, Tom, that's the way it has to be because people are either deployed. 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:49.760 They're they have jobs elsewhere. 00:23:49.760 --> 00:23:51.220 They're going to school elsewhere. 00:23:51.600 --> 00:23:56.020 It's it's just, people are not all staying down the street from each other anymore. 00:23:56.585 --> 00:23:57.725 It's not the way we live. 00:23:57.865 --> 00:24:04.125 One of the challenges we faced dealing with my mother is, to get some of that care you might be referring to was expensive. 00:24:05.705 --> 00:24:13.880 And, are there different groups that are maybe volunteer or, less expensive? 00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:17.720 Some of them are just out of many people's price range. 00:24:18.020 --> 00:24:20.200 Well, it act it depends on a number of factors. 00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:29.705 Area agency on aging does serve a lot of needs regardless of income, and the income would be considered that of the older adult, not necessarily that family. 00:24:29.925 --> 00:24:39.065 Now if you're talking about moving into a facility, then that that could go in either direction, the individual's income or the family support income. 00:24:40.210 --> 00:24:46.150 But caregiving at home, it you can also bring in just those people that you need to help. 00:24:46.610 --> 00:25:00.355 But for a while, for the last couple of years, actually, I've had a a a bath aid come in and assist for my husband, and which he would come in, you know, once a week and help us with that. 00:25:00.575 --> 00:25:02.415 So sometimes if you think about, okay. 00:25:02.415 --> 00:25:09.555 What specific task do I need assistance with by someone else, and which ones can we do ourselves as a family? 00:25:09.890 --> 00:25:15.190 And then you can get down to a level of participation that that is not as expensive potentially. 00:25:15.890 --> 00:25:18.290 So sometimes we can't necessarily do it all. 00:25:18.290 --> 00:25:21.890 We're we're well meaning, but some things are out of skill. 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:23.170 Some things are out of my skill. 00:25:23.170 --> 00:25:26.485 That's why I bring in people people to to assist. 00:25:26.945 --> 00:25:31.205 And there are there are some subsidies in their different communities. 00:25:31.425 --> 00:25:38.245 You can also check with the Alzheimer's Association, people, who are caregivers for an individual with who's diagnosed with dementia. 00:25:39.410 --> 00:25:41.350 That is an underutilized resource. 00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:43.590 Can't do it all right ourselves. 00:25:44.610 --> 00:25:45.730 Kinda related to this. 00:25:45.730 --> 00:25:50.550 It sounds like there are a lot of things we could do at the church level. 00:25:51.185 --> 00:25:51.685 Yes. 00:25:51.985 --> 00:26:05.045 And I just wanted to say, you know, and I think obviously the leadership, the pastors and the priests need to be have a role in that, but I would throw a challenge out, you know, pastors and priests can't do it all either. 00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:07.660 You know, if you're Mhmm. 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:13.440 If if this issue is on your heart, why not try and start something at your church and and say, hey. 00:26:13.580 --> 00:26:21.525 Get a little group of people together of of, church goers or parishioners and and go to the pastor and and talk to them about it. 00:26:22.085 --> 00:26:29.445 Because I find that when when you have a group that's willing to take responsibility for it, it's very easy to say yes to it. 00:26:29.445 --> 00:26:29.845 Right? 00:26:29.845 --> 00:26:34.185 If you're not if if we're waiting for the church the leadership to do everything. 00:26:35.020 --> 00:26:39.900 There's some really simple things, and I'm so glad that that you're championing that idea, father Charles. 00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:42.400 There are simple things you can do within the church. 00:26:42.860 --> 00:26:56.915 One of the things that I've seen a number of groups do and I've discussed with them is, you know, in some churches, there is, maybe there's a nursery for the children or a playroom for the children so that the parents can attend mass or service. 00:26:58.335 --> 00:27:01.555 And that's great, but nobody thinks about what about some older adults? 00:27:01.615 --> 00:27:03.775 Some people with dementia will shout out. 00:27:03.775 --> 00:27:05.395 They will make noises. 00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:10.520 They will fidget, and it's difficult for their family to really focus on worship. 00:27:10.520 --> 00:27:14.280 So it would be easy during maybe one service. 00:27:14.280 --> 00:27:16.620 There only has to be one service even if there's multiple. 00:27:16.760 --> 00:27:18.220 One service, one mass. 00:27:18.705 --> 00:27:32.065 You have a group of people who are willing to volunteer to do crafts or games or music with the older adults who have dementia while their family members can attend mass or service and not have to worry about that. 00:27:32.065 --> 00:27:33.525 Really just focus on worship. 00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:37.950 We're talking about giving a couple of hours a week, and you have no idea. 00:27:38.650 --> 00:27:50.365 So many caregiving families drop out of church, not because they're dropping out of church, but they know if they bring their person to mass or to service, who knows what might happen? 00:27:50.365 --> 00:27:51.405 There might be an outburst. 00:27:51.405 --> 00:27:52.625 There might be a shout. 00:27:52.845 --> 00:27:54.365 Never know what's gonna happen. 00:27:54.365 --> 00:27:57.645 And so they don't come, and they lose that. 00:27:57.645 --> 00:27:58.205 Oh, goodness. 00:27:58.205 --> 00:27:58.605 No. 00:27:58.605 --> 00:28:03.110 You know as a as a priest how much families need spiritual strength at this time. 00:28:03.570 --> 00:28:14.690 This simple thing of literally caregiving, doing an activity with a group for a couple of hours on Sunday, that would be that would be a almost a miracle to many families. 00:28:14.690 --> 00:28:19.405 And I think every church could do that if the members would just make that commitment. 00:28:19.705 --> 00:28:20.105 Doctor. 00:28:20.105 --> 00:28:23.165 Irwin, we have just a few minutes here left in this podcast. 00:28:23.465 --> 00:28:31.005 And I wanted to ask you, in your experience, you're you are in the counseling program here at Divine Mercy University. 00:28:32.020 --> 00:28:44.760 Could you summarize what the perspective is or maybe the different perspective of your, your class or the counseling program here at Divine Mercy University, maybe, versus other programs you've seen? 00:28:44.975 --> 00:28:47.555 Well, other programs I've taught in for that matter. 00:28:48.335 --> 00:29:01.660 Well, of course, we are faith based, but I believe even even as a value added to being faith based is that we we have a faculty who are highly steeped in their professional abilities. 00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:07.660 And then when you when you add faith to it, to me, that's like the secret sauce. 00:29:08.280 --> 00:29:13.660 That just takes it to a whole different level because we, as humans, are mind, body, and spirit. 00:29:14.075 --> 00:29:22.015 And when counselors only deal with the mind and the body, you've got an entire segment of a human that is not being attended properly. 00:29:22.395 --> 00:29:31.680 And putting them together is, I have found as a professional counselor, the most powerful way to help people when you bring God into the equation. 00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:32.860 It's very good. 00:29:32.860 --> 00:29:38.700 Now if someone has a a a follow-up question for you, how might they contact you? 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:41.860 I think you gave your email address in our earlier Absolutely. 00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:43.280 Can you give me that? 00:29:43.420 --> 00:29:44.800 I would be happy to. 00:29:44.860 --> 00:29:50.575 It's kerwin@divinemercy.edu. 00:29:50.575 --> 00:29:53.635 And I would love to hear from any of our podcast listeners. 00:29:53.855 --> 00:29:55.555 Happy to recommend any resources. 00:29:56.095 --> 00:30:03.540 And if you're interested in learning more about gerontological counseling, I'd be happy to give you some direction and ideas about that. 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:09.460 Well, doctor Erwin, I'd like to thank you very much again for this very interesting, talk. 00:30:09.520 --> 00:30:14.585 And, I hope people will follow-up with you and, and you'll be able to help them. 00:30:14.805 --> 00:30:23.685 And I look forward to talking with you again, in future podcasts and, just wish you a wonderful day and, and I look forward to talking with you again soon. 00:30:23.685 --> 00:30:24.325 Thank you, Tom. 00:30:24.325 --> 00:30:25.125 Bobby Charles. 00:30:25.125 --> 00:30:25.380 Good. 00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:36.978 Good to be with you.