WEBVTT 00:00:07.760 --> 00:00:09.620 People are still logging on, but that's alright. 00:00:09.760 --> 00:00:18.025 And we're recording this as well, so it's gonna be sent out to current students as well as prospective students, so they can enjoy the talk as well. 00:00:18.645 --> 00:00:21.625 So I wanna welcome doctor Lauren Toussaint. 00:00:21.685 --> 00:00:23.125 Thank you everybody for coming. 00:00:23.125 --> 00:00:27.305 It's our now third IPS Global Lecture Series talk. 00:00:27.630 --> 00:00:34.930 So we just started this year to give, people the opportunity to hear people in different areas of research. 00:00:35.710 --> 00:00:39.490 Last talk we had on resiliency and marriage and family. 00:00:39.870 --> 00:00:42.210 So a general topic in times of grief. 00:00:42.955 --> 00:00:45.375 In the fall, we had a talk on leadership and virtue. 00:00:45.835 --> 00:00:53.135 So we're very excited to have doctor Toussaint with us tonight, and he's gonna speak on forgiveness and human flourishing. 00:00:53.835 --> 00:00:55.275 So I'm very excited. 00:00:55.275 --> 00:00:56.735 Looking forward to your talk. 00:00:57.350 --> 00:00:57.750 Doctor. 00:00:57.750 --> 00:01:11.375 Toussaint is professor of psychology at Luther College, and, he's also vice chair of the Forgiveness Scientific Advisory Council, Templeton World Charity Foundation, has done a lot of work on forgiveness. 00:01:12.235 --> 00:01:16.815 From the psychological side, he's a wonderful researcher, very experienced researcher. 00:01:18.155 --> 00:01:36.360 He's president of the Forgiveness Foundation International and, just has, I think, a naturally integrative outlook, from his Catholic faith, seeing the person, as holistically and looking at forgiveness from a, I think, integrative and psychological perspective. 00:01:36.900 --> 00:01:41.400 So I'm very excited to have you, share with us tonight. 00:01:41.735 --> 00:01:43.195 We will have a presentation. 00:01:43.975 --> 00:01:49.415 And then the last twenty ish minutes, we will have time for questions and answers. 00:01:49.415 --> 00:02:01.420 So if you have questions throughout the talk, if you, the participants would just put it in the chat or the q and a, and then we will kind of I I will read the questions out loud in the end, and we'll work through the questions that way. 00:02:01.800 --> 00:02:04.280 So right now, I'll hand it over to doctor Toussaint. 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:06.140 Thank you so much for being with us tonight. 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.340 Well, thank you for that very kind introduction. 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:19.905 It's, it's my honor, and, I have been looking forward to this since I think we first talked about it, but seems like maybe months ago now. 00:02:19.905 --> 00:02:23.345 So, yeah, thrilled to be here, and it should be a lot of fun. 00:02:23.345 --> 00:02:29.090 I look forward to the questions, and, discussion is always probably the most fun. 00:02:29.090 --> 00:02:36.530 So I'll say a few things and then kinda get out of the way so people can, you know, get their specific things, asked and answered. 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:43.885 So the plan is I chat a little bit about forgiveness and human flourishing, and then we'll open it up to some questions. 00:02:43.885 --> 00:02:49.265 And I'll I I really don't have a lot of formal stuff to discuss. 00:02:49.405 --> 00:02:55.650 I mean, some ideas, I'll reference a little bit of research, but nothing real, too heavy lifting. 00:02:55.650 --> 00:03:02.230 And I wanna start by saying so this would be my vision of what it looks like in DC right now. 00:03:03.825 --> 00:03:08.705 And I'm assuming you're gonna tell me that's exactly the view that you get every day when you wake up in the morning. 00:03:08.705 --> 00:03:09.345 Is that right? 00:03:13.105 --> 00:03:18.270 Well, if you if you could see the weather that I endured today, you'd know why I was looking for a good picture. 00:03:18.270 --> 00:03:22.590 So I wanted to start off on a light note, and, I hope that your spring is going well. 00:03:22.590 --> 00:03:24.530 Your semester is moving along smoothly. 00:03:26.030 --> 00:03:33.335 We're about halfway into our semester here just past through our spring break at Luther College, and so we're kind of into the home stretch. 00:03:33.795 --> 00:03:40.435 And, it was a pretty drab and dreary day, but, the hope that tomorrow could be better is always out there. 00:03:40.435 --> 00:03:43.875 And, spring is, you know, kind of eternal rebirth. 00:03:43.875 --> 00:03:48.030 So looking forward to that, and I hope you are too. 00:03:49.050 --> 00:03:53.930 I wanted to talk about forgiveness and human flourishing, but I wanted to talk about it at at multiple levels. 00:03:53.930 --> 00:04:06.385 And one of the things I kinda wanted to focus on tonight was, you know, kind of the community level because it's often a part of forgiveness that we don't necessarily think about. 00:04:06.385 --> 00:04:26.230 And I think, you know, the recent few weeks in our world have once again highlighted that, while forgiveness is a big thing that we have to contend with on an individual level, it's also a very big thing at community, societal, national, international, and global levels. 00:04:27.415 --> 00:04:40.935 And so I'm gonna try to as I go, you know, kinda incorporate a little bit more of the community level, applied nature of, the work that I am either doing or or kinda hoping and planning to do. 00:04:40.935 --> 00:05:03.215 So, you know, if we look at our, community environments, whether it be schools or families or workplaces, these are places where there's just a lot of conflict often, and it's really hard to sometimes think about how to get past that. 00:05:03.835 --> 00:05:14.850 If you're anything like me, you know, the social justice call of of our faith is has got us in a bit of a bind. 00:05:14.850 --> 00:05:15.170 You know? 00:05:15.170 --> 00:05:17.170 We're I I think we're trying to do the right thing. 00:05:17.170 --> 00:05:21.090 I'm just not sure that we always are, and, it's really hard. 00:05:21.090 --> 00:05:26.025 The conflict, is just frankly really weighty. 00:05:26.025 --> 00:05:38.370 And so some of the examples that I have on the screen seem like minor things compared to the kinds of things that we might be thinking about, that most be might be most salient to us, in the last few weeks. 00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:54.825 But, nonetheless, you know, bullying in schools and workplaces, family, conflict, trauma, abounds in in our, societies and has for some time and probably will continue, for a long time to come. 00:05:54.825 --> 00:06:11.650 And so the first place that I usually start with this conversation is to think about the notion of unforgiveness because, forgiveness is kinda more the answer, and and the problem is unforgiveness. 00:06:11.790 --> 00:06:14.750 So the the the root cause of why we're here is that, you know, people hurt us. 00:06:14.750 --> 00:06:22.335 There's some kind of injustice that is done, and that is, what precipitates the sense of unforgiveness. 00:06:22.475 --> 00:06:26.015 And unforgiveness is something that's, stressful. 00:06:26.395 --> 00:06:47.145 And so all of the aspects doctor Klausie mentioned, that, you know, my my view is, integrative, and and that's, you know, very true for the kinds of things that we think about when we think about the influence of unforgiveness on stress. 00:06:47.145 --> 00:06:47.965 There's psychological. 00:06:48.665 --> 00:06:50.285 There's behavioral consequences. 00:06:51.865 --> 00:06:54.525 You know, it changes the way you think about things. 00:06:54.745 --> 00:07:02.650 There's certainly psychoendocrine things going on in your, you know, your kind of hormonal system. 00:07:03.670 --> 00:07:09.990 There's psychophysiological things going on that are, you know, changing heart rate and respiration and things of that nature. 00:07:09.990 --> 00:07:20.525 And then, you know, last but not least, of course, is that there are social consequences of stress that we all could probably, you know, relate to. 00:07:21.225 --> 00:07:33.690 So, that brings us to the concept of forgiveness because, you you know, to stay in that place where unforgiveness creates all of this stress and angst is not a very, it's a very pleasant place to be. 00:07:34.630 --> 00:07:46.365 And so modern day psychology as well as, you know, our our centuries old church and many faiths have thought about what forgiveness is. 00:07:46.425 --> 00:07:49.305 And, you know, recently, I've seen some really good things. 00:07:49.305 --> 00:07:53.085 I don't know how many of you might be familiar with or part of Ascension Press. 00:07:54.290 --> 00:07:56.470 I follow a lot of their work very closely. 00:07:56.690 --> 00:08:01.110 They, are are right in my kind of backyard, so to speak, in Duluth, Minnesota. 00:08:01.410 --> 00:08:12.155 And, so, I've seen some really good online talks there recently about differences between divine forgiveness and, human forgiveness. 00:08:12.155 --> 00:08:22.415 And so we oftentimes think of human forgiveness as being this letting go of bad and replacing the bad with good. 00:08:22.770 --> 00:08:32.050 I I typically say, especially when it comes to close relationships, you would hope that you could do more than just not hate your spouse again or your children again. 00:08:32.050 --> 00:08:34.610 You you you'd hope that you could do better than that. 00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:40.505 You would not hate them anymore and return to loving them even though they may have hurt you at some point. 00:08:40.505 --> 00:08:56.310 And that's really the essence of how modern day psychology thinks about forgiveness is get rid of the bad, but not just not just get rid of the bad, replace it with probably the good that that used to be there or preceded, the bad. 00:08:57.810 --> 00:09:01.670 I'll reference a little bit as we go forgiveness of others and forgiveness of yourself. 00:09:02.035 --> 00:09:10.795 I'll also probably reference the fact that, sometimes we think of, forgiveness, in any form as kind of a virtue. 00:09:10.795 --> 00:09:13.895 We think of it as like a a character trait. 00:09:14.275 --> 00:09:22.310 And other times, we think of it as more of a kinda like a passing feeling, you know, a state of being that that kinda comes and goes. 00:09:22.610 --> 00:09:33.705 And then another common, way of thinking about forgiveness is that we oftentimes make a decision to do it, but that decision is kind of, you know, a head decision. 00:09:35.765 --> 00:09:42.825 And it's really you know, full forgiveness probably isn't really truly there until we have our heart involved. 00:09:42.870 --> 00:09:45.590 So you have kind of a emotional or a spiritual side. 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:55.850 I like to think of, forgiveness from the heart is is kind of the the full, embellishment of the, of the experience. 00:09:57.205 --> 00:09:58.505 So we've got our unforgiveness. 00:09:58.805 --> 00:10:09.705 We've got our, you know, kinda contrasting forgiveness and kind of the what we think of as maybe the way out of of injustice and and kinda having maybe holding a grudge or having a hard time moving on. 00:10:11.800 --> 00:10:21.100 And then we reach the real, question, and that is, most everyone, I think, is gonna agree forgiveness is not easy. 00:10:22.520 --> 00:10:26.955 You know, there might be a few instances in which it seems like it is. 00:10:27.735 --> 00:10:30.135 I'm always a little distrusting of those. 00:10:30.135 --> 00:10:34.795 I just don't know why, but it it just doesn't feel quite genuine to me. 00:10:36.695 --> 00:10:39.655 I've seen, you know, many many times now. 00:10:41.040 --> 00:10:49.540 You see you watch the news or something, and you see someone who a day after there's been a horrifying kind of act of violence or brutality. 00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:51.940 People are standing up saying we forgive. 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.480 I guess I don't I don't doubt that that's possible. 00:10:54.480 --> 00:11:02.865 I just kind of I struggle to to feel like that's, as genuine and and, as complete as it could be. 00:11:03.005 --> 00:11:04.285 Forgiveness usually takes time. 00:11:04.285 --> 00:11:06.225 It usually takes a lot of want to. 00:11:06.605 --> 00:11:08.705 It's kind of an ugly process. 00:11:08.765 --> 00:11:10.945 Sometimes you feel worse before you feel better. 00:11:11.910 --> 00:11:19.050 And so I turned to a classic theory here that many of you might be familiar with or maybe at some point in your training will become familiar with. 00:11:19.270 --> 00:11:20.630 It's called social learning theory. 00:11:20.630 --> 00:11:22.250 It was developed by Albert Bandura. 00:11:24.525 --> 00:11:31.645 And just in brief, I mean, there's lots more to say about this, but social learning theory says that there's three big pieces. 00:11:31.645 --> 00:11:33.425 You have to you have to see examples. 00:11:35.325 --> 00:11:41.880 In in other words, you can't learn socially unless you have, someone in your social world to learn from. 00:11:41.880 --> 00:11:43.820 That's why they call it social learning theory. 00:11:44.520 --> 00:11:46.440 It's a it's a social form of learning. 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.120 So if I don't see other people that I can learn from, I'm in a lot of trouble. 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:56.305 So you need models, whether they be in your family, your school, your, you know, organizations, or whatever. 00:11:56.605 --> 00:12:01.185 Number two, you need to believe you can do it, and I think that's a that's a big hurdle for many. 00:12:02.445 --> 00:12:05.570 You know, just the sense of this is gonna be really hard. 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:10.390 The injustice was really great, or maybe it's just ongoing. 00:12:11.410 --> 00:12:17.075 And so the the beliefs that you can do it has to be there, and then you have to have positive outcome expectancies. 00:12:17.215 --> 00:12:21.475 You have to believe that if you do it, good things are going to follow. 00:12:22.415 --> 00:12:31.235 And that's also sometimes a challenge that to hold on to those expectations that good things are going to follow, is sometimes hard. 00:12:31.295 --> 00:12:33.190 Well, Well, it turns out we have lots of models. 00:12:33.650 --> 00:12:45.350 You can, you know, you can probably, Google up on the web a number of different, examples, but certainly Nelson Mandela comes to mind, doesn't Tutu. 00:12:45.410 --> 00:12:59.165 There's other examples of people from various different cities, the Amish, you know, closer to your, neck of the woods in the in the, you know, kind of vast geography of our country kinda out in the Northeast. 00:13:00.830 --> 00:13:05.790 You know, there's the story of the, I think there's a a d a DVD or a movie actually on Amish Grace. 00:13:05.790 --> 00:13:11.170 Really incredible, example of of cultural or community forgiveness. 00:13:11.230 --> 00:13:15.555 So there's, you know, lots and lots and lots and lots of examples. 00:13:15.615 --> 00:13:17.955 So we have lots of models to learn from. 00:13:18.975 --> 00:13:24.115 We probably have to think about our own, you know, comfort level. 00:13:25.455 --> 00:13:31.750 Do I think I'm capable of forgiving either, someone else or myself? 00:13:31.970 --> 00:13:37.250 And, you know, oftentimes, that's rated on kind of a zero to a 100 scale. 00:13:37.250 --> 00:13:43.215 And, you know, the the more confident you are, the more you're likely to do it. 00:13:43.295 --> 00:13:45.235 So we wanna try to build that confidence. 00:13:45.295 --> 00:13:55.055 Well, oftentimes, people can get kinda short circuited there, and they they can say, well, I, gee, I I kinda feel like I could, but I just don't know how. 00:13:55.535 --> 00:14:02.230 I'd like to, but, you know, I see these examples, and I I'd really I'd really like to follow these examples. 00:14:02.390 --> 00:14:08.710 You know, our Catholic faith provides the, you know, the the best example of them all is Jesus Christ. 00:14:08.710 --> 00:14:10.230 I mean, that's it. 00:14:10.230 --> 00:14:12.810 That's that's the top of the heap. 00:14:13.665 --> 00:14:18.225 But I you know, I'm just, I'm just a regular guy. 00:14:18.225 --> 00:14:21.825 It's hard to imagine how I'm gonna possibly get through this. 00:14:21.825 --> 00:14:27.205 And, thankfully, that's where, the science and practice of psychology comes in. 00:14:29.090 --> 00:14:54.075 You know, there's there's really good evidence based well supported models that help people forgive, and the model that I'm showing in front of you starts with, the remembering part, and it works through empathy and feelings of altruism, commitment and holding on, and overcoming. 00:14:54.135 --> 00:15:05.410 And, you know, with more time, we could go through each of those pieces, but, suffice to say that there are very well established methods for helping people forgive others. 00:15:05.410 --> 00:15:17.195 Some 50 plus now randomized controlled trials show that, these methods work, and they they work just the way you'd expect them to. 00:15:17.655 --> 00:15:26.290 The more people engage in them, the harder they work at it, the longer they spend on these things, the better they do, the more forgiving they become. 00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:32.050 There are models that help people to forgive themselves. 00:15:33.390 --> 00:15:56.470 And, you can see here that in this case, the model here starts with the, apologize, part and leads to, you know, trying to make amends, feeling forgiven, being forgiven, leading into acceptance, a desire for self improvement so that you, you know, hopefully don't make these same mistakes again in the future and hurt people. 00:15:57.650 --> 00:16:11.225 And then, you know, a lasting commitment to being a better person, forgiving yourself, moving forward, restoring your sense of values, restoring your self esteem, and so forth. 00:16:11.225 --> 00:16:17.305 So someone who's motivated but says, I don't know I don't know how to do this. 00:16:17.305 --> 00:16:19.165 There are there are good options. 00:16:19.225 --> 00:16:27.770 Now the the forgiveness of oneself option is far less tested, and I'm gonna come back to that a little bit later. 00:16:28.310 --> 00:16:33.030 But it has been it there's a limited amount of data suggesting that it is effective. 00:16:33.030 --> 00:16:35.690 It's good at helping people forgive themselves. 00:16:36.605 --> 00:16:47.265 So, you know, moving to the community level, you might say, well, communities have to sometimes forgive themselves because they've done things that they're not proud of. 00:16:48.365 --> 00:16:55.150 Sometimes communities are offended by other communities or societies, cultures, nations, whatever, entire groups. 00:16:56.410 --> 00:17:07.145 And so we think about how could these models that were originally developed I mean, psychology is often kind of a a science and practice focused on individuals and and small groups. 00:17:07.145 --> 00:17:16.265 How could these things be extrapolated out to the larger community, to the larger social, networks that we find ourselves in? 00:17:16.265 --> 00:17:35.445 Well, we've done a little bit of that work, and what we find is that, building forgiving communities means that you have some of the same things, present in the community level that you have in the in the individual case. 00:17:37.425 --> 00:17:49.180 So even though I didn't really, talk about it, people oftentimes confuse, forgiveness and justice thinking that there are two opposite ends of the same spectrum, and that's not really true. 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:51.520 Justice is an independent thing. 00:17:52.140 --> 00:18:37.985 You can all probably think of, times in which you have gotten no justice but been able to forgive and move on, and you can probably also think about times where you got complete perfect justice but just could never quite forgive and that that suggests that there are really two independent processes but one can can help the other and oftentimes environments where justice is is done, people feel safe and valued, these are conducive environments for forgiving, communities where you have models and leaders present kinda leading leading the charge, so to speak, keeping it in the forefront of people's minds, opportunities and support for forgiveness. 00:18:38.685 --> 00:18:57.525 You might think of, some of the national efforts, the truth and reconciliation commissions, have been kind of good examples of, not always not always perfect implementation, but but, you know, good purpose, good intent to provide opportunities. 00:19:00.385 --> 00:19:13.730 When we think about process, again, we, you know, we probably refer back to some of those models that we've tested in individuals and think about the extent to which we can move community communities through a similar process. 00:19:14.510 --> 00:19:26.370 And then, you know, policy level changes, things that might, help to make forgiveness more of a kind of a natural and and easier first option instead of kind of a last resort. 00:19:27.285 --> 00:19:33.845 And then the last thing that I'll I'll come back to and just reference is the notion of exposure and promotion, forgiveness. 00:19:33.845 --> 00:19:39.445 Like anything, if you wanna kinda sell a group or a community on an idea, you're gonna have to work at it. 00:19:39.445 --> 00:19:42.180 And so, we'll we'll come back and revisit that in a minute. 00:19:42.740 --> 00:20:01.635 I do wanna say that, you know, there's lots of community psychology that's been done, lots that has been learned, and I provide a quote here about community systems change, which is is probably the level of change that we're thinking about when we think about, you know, large scale forgiveness issues. 00:20:02.735 --> 00:20:04.175 And so I'll just read the quote here. 00:20:04.175 --> 00:20:07.730 It's an intentional process designed to alter the status quo. 00:20:07.950 --> 00:20:20.670 What I was kinda referencing earlier about kinda moving away from a revenge mentality or a retributive justice model by shifting and realigning the form and function of a targeted system. 00:20:20.670 --> 00:20:24.505 So, lots of levers of change involved in that. 00:20:24.505 --> 00:20:24.745 Right? 00:20:24.745 --> 00:20:33.785 There's change in norms, system resources, systems regulations, policies and procedures that I mentioned earlier, and then operations. 00:20:33.785 --> 00:20:42.170 You know, people in power, people that are decision makers have to support this and be, you know, be leaders in this regard. 00:20:43.670 --> 00:20:49.610 So those are some things to think about in terms of, like, you know, what is forgiveness? 00:20:50.235 --> 00:20:51.835 Why would people want to do it? 00:20:51.835 --> 00:20:53.835 How would they be motivated to do it? 00:20:53.835 --> 00:21:02.655 What are the kind of models of of processing, forgiveness, and how might we, expand that into the community? 00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:06.080 But that's really all on the forgiveness side. 00:21:06.860 --> 00:21:12.220 I wanted in the last few minutes to share a few things about the flourishing side. 00:21:12.220 --> 00:21:19.235 Flourishing is for some folks defined as good mental and physical health and happiness. 00:21:19.535 --> 00:21:21.395 All of those things combined together. 00:21:21.935 --> 00:21:34.220 For others, they include things like, satisfactory, vocational pursuits, sufficient income and education and sufficient monetary resources. 00:21:34.600 --> 00:21:44.035 And, so flourishing in kind of a even a broader sense, that also kind of enters into the that equation of, the community again. 00:21:44.035 --> 00:21:48.455 So, I just wanted to share a few things to keep you thinking about this. 00:21:49.875 --> 00:21:54.760 What sorts of opportunities to flourish are there through forgiveness? 00:21:54.760 --> 00:22:14.285 And we've spent a good deal of time over the last couple of decades trying to examine this question, and you can see titles here that kinda lead you to the conclusions about, forgiveness and longevity and forgiveness and stress and and health and forgiveness in the workplace and health and productivity. 00:22:14.425 --> 00:22:24.730 And so I'm just gonna highlight a few things that we found, and then, share with you just a little bit about what we wanna do, which I'm kind of excited about. 00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:30.170 And so in terms of flourishing, you know, I kinda said that it it can be a large umbrella. 00:22:30.950 --> 00:22:46.335 And, we have about a 100 DC office workers here that were surveyed, and we found out that forgiveness is related to these office workers' mental health, physical health, to their absenteeism, lesser absenteeism, and a greater productivity. 00:22:47.435 --> 00:23:02.190 And so, we tried to look at something similar in some Midwest manufacturing employees, and we found a very similar thing that, forgiveness is related to mental and physical health and that reduced work stress and greater productivity. 00:23:02.995 --> 00:23:29.650 And, ultimately, we found, that if we put this all together in kind of a complicated statistical model that, you know, we don't have a lot of time to get into here, but we found out that people that were more forgiving in their nature, this is trait forgiveness, not just a fleeting state but they had fewer negative occupational outcomes and that was in large part because the more forgiving people had fewer workplace stressors. 00:23:30.765 --> 00:23:44.545 The conflicts that they got into, the arguments, the upsets at work, they seem to just be able to put them away and move on and get past them in a in a more, quick and timely fashion, and that led to, you know, better outcomes. 00:23:46.190 --> 00:23:56.450 In other work, we've, we've attempted to understand how forgiveness might kind of interact, you might say, with stress and health and work problems. 00:23:57.310 --> 00:24:07.955 And we found that, people who are low in forgiveness, even medium in forgiveness, they have a pretty noticeable correlation between stress and these important outcomes. 00:24:07.955 --> 00:24:22.950 But people who have high levels of forgiveness, it turns out that the forgiveness just kind of erases the connection between stress and health and work problems that that is typically very, very strong and robust. 00:24:22.950 --> 00:24:32.035 I mean, in almost every sample you ever look at, you find these very consistent relationships between stress and health and work. 00:24:32.035 --> 00:24:39.570 And, you know, when we looked exclusively at just people who are are high forgivers, that connection is just not there. 00:24:39.730 --> 00:24:41.030 It it's just absent. 00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:51.430 It's there's no statistically, significant relationship between stress and health and work problems for people that are high forgivers, which is, that's amazing. 00:24:51.490 --> 00:24:51.650 Right? 00:24:51.650 --> 00:24:56.445 That's a that's an incredible protective benefit of forgiveness. 00:24:56.745 --> 00:25:08.425 And so just, again, as a sample of some other things that we've looked at, this was a sample of, a variety of people involved in the financial services sector. 00:25:08.425 --> 00:25:12.890 So these are financial services advisers, vice presidents, administrative assistants. 00:25:12.890 --> 00:25:19.790 About a 100 of them completed a one day forgiveness training and some follow-up coaching over the course of the next couple of months. 00:25:20.330 --> 00:25:27.795 And as we expected, they they showed all kinds of good, changes in stress and health and wellness. 00:25:28.655 --> 00:25:42.650 And the thing that, just about knocked me off my chair when I saw it is that they also showed a 20% increase in sales productivity as a result of learning how to be more forgiving. 00:25:43.990 --> 00:25:47.270 And all I can come back to in that context is to say, yeah. 00:25:47.270 --> 00:25:50.550 You know, forgiveness is kind of an unproductive thing, isn't it? 00:25:50.550 --> 00:26:01.105 You spend a lot of time thinking about the past, and sometimes you spend a lot of time thinking about pretty destructive things about how to get back at people. 00:26:02.125 --> 00:26:05.665 And especially in the workplace, that's gonna interfere with productivity. 00:26:05.805 --> 00:26:10.950 It soaks up a lot of your energy, and it soaks up a lot of your time to collaborate with others. 00:26:10.950 --> 00:26:23.865 And, you know, it it shows in the ultimate bottom line that, forgiveness the paper we published here, I don't know if you can see the title, but we titled it a little tongue in cheek. 00:26:23.865 --> 00:26:26.845 We said, is forgiveness one of the secrets to success? 00:26:26.985 --> 00:26:27.465 Right? 00:26:27.465 --> 00:26:33.225 You'd probably never you'd never think of that or, you know, talk about that. 00:26:33.225 --> 00:26:39.000 Well, regrettably, I had my own, experience with forgiveness in the workplace. 00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:44.500 And, it takes me back a few years now, and I'm happy to say I'm well past that. 00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:53.095 But as, as the vice chair of the, scientific advisory council for the Templeton World Charity Foundation. 00:26:53.235 --> 00:27:03.015 I was asked to write a blog about forgiveness, health, and happiness that described a little bit of the new resource that we developed that's called Discover Forgiveness. 00:27:03.235 --> 00:27:04.595 I'm really excited about it. 00:27:04.595 --> 00:27:12.850 We spent a lot of time and, putting a lot of effort in getting, you know, a a really nice collection of resources available. 00:27:12.850 --> 00:27:22.565 So if you wanna learn about forgiveness and ways to, you know, help people become more forgiving, there's stuff for you on that website, Discover, Forgiveness. 00:27:22.625 --> 00:27:27.105 And if you just want to know more about the health consequences, there's stuff on that website for you. 00:27:27.105 --> 00:27:40.000 And so I wrote this blog, but, you know, the thing that I wrote about was what we were just talking about and that is being hurt in the workplace is really a difficult thing, to get past. 00:27:40.060 --> 00:27:46.640 And, you know, one of my first reactions when I had that experience was that I was just gonna quit. 00:27:47.185 --> 00:27:58.385 I just felt like quitting and wanted to, you know, do whatever I could to, you know, make the other people involved hurt, and so I wanted to quit on a day's notice. 00:27:58.385 --> 00:27:58.625 Right? 00:27:58.625 --> 00:28:01.110 I wasn't gonna give two weeks notice. 00:28:01.110 --> 00:28:06.090 I wasn't gonna, you know, do something, you know, respectful and and professional. 00:28:06.150 --> 00:28:09.850 I just wanted out, and I wanted people to suffer the consequences. 00:28:10.070 --> 00:28:22.775 And, that was a really, really tough thing to work through, and it turns out it happened at a time that I wasn't quite as, you know, acquainted with, the forgiveness literature as I am now. 00:28:22.775 --> 00:28:28.080 So, you know, the the blog is there if you wanna go and read more about it. 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:35.120 I'm gonna bring us back in the last couple minutes here to a couple of things that I've, alluded to, earlier. 00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:43.300 And that is, one aspect of community forgiveness building is the notion of promotion. 00:28:44.265 --> 00:28:51.885 And, a few years back, we did a for a community forgiveness campaign, which we call the community forgiveness blitz. 00:28:52.745 --> 00:29:07.750 And we did it at Luther College, and, it's been done a similar kind of model has been done now a few times, around the globe, and it really consists of, essentially just inundating people. 00:29:07.750 --> 00:29:16.115 You you know, watching Netflix these days, sometimes you feel like you're being inundated with commercials for whatever you searched on the web for last. 00:29:16.115 --> 00:29:16.435 Right? 00:29:16.835 --> 00:29:18.675 All the data sharing that's going on. 00:29:18.675 --> 00:29:26.810 And so I I can't get through a a Netflix episode without seeing, you know, more ads for, you you know, a new lawnmower. 00:29:27.190 --> 00:29:31.770 It's like, I I was interested in that for five minutes, and now I I can't get away from it. 00:29:32.150 --> 00:29:36.950 That's the level of, inundation that we tried to provide in our community. 00:29:36.950 --> 00:29:39.175 We put forgiveness everywhere. 00:29:39.175 --> 00:29:41.595 We put it on the radio and the student newspaper. 00:29:42.215 --> 00:29:44.715 The chapels that week were focused on forgiveness. 00:29:45.575 --> 00:29:46.775 We had some lectures. 00:29:46.775 --> 00:29:48.315 We had poetry competitions. 00:29:48.535 --> 00:29:52.075 We had some musical performance all focused around forgiveness. 00:29:52.710 --> 00:29:59.850 And so we really just tried to saturate the community to the point where we were just dripping in forgiveness. 00:29:59.910 --> 00:30:12.025 And then we measured a variety of different things, relationships with teachers and relationships with staff and relationships with roommates and conflict and feelings of love and welcomingness. 00:30:12.885 --> 00:30:28.590 And sure enough, just the exposure is enough to kinda trigger that and keep it kind of fresh in people's minds that we we for for a moment, we built a more forgiving community, and, it showed. 00:30:28.590 --> 00:30:35.635 People reported that they were more forgiving, they were more loving, they were more caring of the people that they were around. 00:30:35.775 --> 00:30:48.115 And so, as I said, the self forgiveness literature has been a little behind here, and the efficacy of, those methods are a little less unclear. 00:30:48.575 --> 00:30:52.150 So we're going to Trinidad And Tobago. 00:30:52.150 --> 00:30:54.950 It's the southernmost island in The Caribbean. 00:30:54.950 --> 00:30:57.290 It's just you can see I've highlighted it there. 00:30:57.910 --> 00:31:22.080 It's just barely North of South America, and we're going to be working in that community to develop a community self forgiveness intervention aimed at reducing the exceedingly high rates of suicide risk in The Caribbean, the struggles that they have with addictions, and the, the the constant struggles with self forgiveness resulting from that. 00:31:22.300 --> 00:31:30.080 And then, of course, the mental health consequences of that are, gonna be, key to to our understanding here as well. 00:31:30.585 --> 00:31:36.105 We just found out that that, the Templeton World Charity Foundation funded this study for us. 00:31:36.105 --> 00:31:43.470 So we are literally just now on the cusp of getting some things rolling and figuring out how to do this work. 00:31:44.030 --> 00:31:53.150 It's gonna be a big challenge, but, we have, we have some good funding and good resources and, and really outstanding colleagues. 00:31:53.150 --> 00:32:07.585 So I'm I'm look really looking forward to it, and I'm hopeful that we can really do, some good work here to foster community level forgiveness and also bolster what we know about, effective self forgiveness campaigns. 00:32:07.885 --> 00:32:10.705 So I'll leave you with a couple things here. 00:32:11.430 --> 00:32:31.525 One is that a few years ago now, I can't believe it's that long ago, but we tried to collect the research on forgiveness in health, and, we put that into this book forgiveness in health and, tried to develop a kind of a model or a way of thinking about how forgiveness and and health and flourishing all go together. 00:32:31.585 --> 00:32:43.180 And, my kind of integrative nature, again, is thinking about forgiveness and kind of spirituality being a centerpiece of our physical, mental, and social well-being. 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:54.165 And then finally, I'll leave you with, I started with what I imagined or what I'm hopeful that it might look like in, DC. 00:32:54.165 --> 00:33:04.085 And so if you get down, I'm I'm sure all of you, you know, from wherever part whatever parts of the world you might be coming from, if you ever get down there, maybe you'll see that. 00:33:04.085 --> 00:33:07.590 Maybe if at some point somebody comes to visit me, this is what you'll see. 00:33:08.150 --> 00:33:19.590 These are just some images of my, community here in, Northeast Iowa, as well as my contact information and, you know, email, phone number stuff. 00:33:19.590 --> 00:33:24.845 So, so, yeah, that kinda brings us to the circle. 00:33:26.025 --> 00:33:27.145 Thank you so much. 00:33:27.145 --> 00:33:30.925 I really, really appreciate your input and your thoughts. 00:33:30.985 --> 00:33:36.410 Really, really, really exciting research, you're gonna move forward into. 00:33:36.470 --> 00:33:38.250 I would love to hear an update there. 00:33:39.350 --> 00:33:40.550 I'm gonna read, just a chat. 00:33:40.550 --> 00:33:50.090 If you all have questions, or input, or wanna probe further, just put it in the chat room or in the Q and A. 00:33:50.535 --> 00:33:57.655 So, one of the comments, was for your study that you're just now starting in Trinidad. 00:33:57.655 --> 00:34:03.995 Please examine the root cause of the suicides as so many suicides are now actually homicides disguised as suicides. 00:34:04.780 --> 00:34:06.560 And then just to thank you for the presentation. 00:34:06.700 --> 00:34:09.920 Any comment or thoughts you wanna add to that? 00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:10.700 Yeah. 00:34:10.700 --> 00:34:11.200 Absolutely. 00:34:11.500 --> 00:34:12.240 Thank you. 00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:14.560 That's, that's super. 00:34:17.115 --> 00:34:23.135 The notion of suicide in The Caribbean is really, you know, it's a it's a deep rooted problem. 00:34:24.235 --> 00:34:32.110 I don't think we will entirely, you know, be able to address it just through self forgiveness. 00:34:32.110 --> 00:34:43.795 But, yeah, that's a great point, and and we will definitely, take that under advisement because, that's important to be able to, you know, separate those things. 00:34:43.795 --> 00:34:45.715 So Yeah. 00:34:45.715 --> 00:34:50.535 And there was a contact person for somebody for psychology in Trinidad if you're interested. 00:34:50.835 --> 00:34:51.155 Yes. 00:34:51.155 --> 00:34:51.655 Absolutely. 00:34:51.795 --> 00:34:52.355 I am. 00:34:52.355 --> 00:34:53.975 You better believe I am interested. 00:34:54.830 --> 00:34:55.150 Yes. 00:34:55.150 --> 00:34:55.430 Thank you. 00:34:55.550 --> 00:35:00.770 Maybe, if they they can connect or email you later, or email me, and I'll forward. 00:35:01.070 --> 00:35:02.270 I would love that. 00:35:02.270 --> 00:35:02.770 Yes. 00:35:03.070 --> 00:35:03.630 Thank you. 00:35:03.630 --> 00:35:10.110 But, yeah, probably, if you wanna, email that contact information to me, I'll forward it. 00:35:10.110 --> 00:35:15.225 So the one question that came up was how does one know if they have fully forgiven? 00:35:16.645 --> 00:35:17.145 Yeah. 00:35:17.365 --> 00:35:18.665 That's a great one. 00:35:24.150 --> 00:35:29.450 How do you know if you've fully forgiven is it's actually a fairly common question. 00:35:30.470 --> 00:35:40.205 And I'm going to borrow from my, you know, my mentors and role models here in responding to that. 00:35:43.385 --> 00:36:01.500 Some would say, when you no longer want, want, hurt or pain for that person, you no longer have ill will, and you, you know, you can kinda wish the person well if we're talking about forgiveness of others. 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:10.555 That's maybe one, you know, marker that you've probably reached complete forgiveness in some way. 00:36:10.935 --> 00:36:17.835 But I like the explanation, that I've heard from other folks better, and and it's it goes something like this. 00:36:20.190 --> 00:36:30.530 It it says, the answer to how do you know if you have fully forgiven is similar to the answer to how do you know if you're in love. 00:36:32.765 --> 00:36:36.845 And, turns out the the answer isn't really that clear. 00:36:36.845 --> 00:36:43.825 You know, you that that's probably an impossible question to answer, but you just know it. 00:36:44.490 --> 00:36:54.910 You you know, the genuine experience, the genuine feelings that you have, and the genuine thoughts that you have toward a person. 00:36:56.425 --> 00:37:01.245 And, it's one of those things that we just kind of recognize when we see it. 00:37:01.385 --> 00:37:04.025 And I wish I had a better answer for that. 00:37:04.025 --> 00:37:11.500 The the more kind of objective scientific approach is to say, well, it's the absence of ill will and the presence of wishing someone well. 00:37:11.500 --> 00:37:12.640 That can be measured. 00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:27.515 But I don't believe that when we're talking about things of the spirit, which forgiveness is is first and foremost, I don't believe that we have all the answers and that science is gonna be able to necessarily provide that for us. 00:37:27.515 --> 00:37:31.615 Best we can do is get kind of a rudimentary sense of things. 00:37:32.715 --> 00:37:57.955 And, so, you know, you continue to listen to the, the groanings and the rumblings of the holy spirit, and you make your, sense of how genuinely complete your forgiveness process is based in that that that kind of equation is one that I can't put numbers to. 00:37:57.955 --> 00:38:01.155 But So somebody made a comment. 00:38:01.155 --> 00:38:02.675 So wondering what your thoughts on this. 00:38:02.675 --> 00:38:06.110 Gary mentioned when you don't feel like a victim anymore. 00:38:06.490 --> 00:38:09.870 Would you say that's one indicator of having fully forgiven? 00:38:11.530 --> 00:38:11.850 Yeah. 00:38:11.850 --> 00:38:17.310 I mean, one of the things we talk about a lot in forgiveness is the victim's story that doesn't help. 00:38:18.555 --> 00:38:29.515 When you're, when you're, wrapped up and telling people about how poorly you've been treated, you're really, you know, kinda looking inward. 00:38:29.515 --> 00:38:32.415 You're some people would say you're too much inside your own head. 00:38:34.310 --> 00:38:46.565 And so, certainly, when you can start to change the the way that you talk about it, and and that change moves you from saying, when somebody asks how are you doing? 00:38:46.625 --> 00:38:49.365 Instead of saying, well, let me tell you what happened to me. 00:38:49.745 --> 00:39:03.900 And you go on then for, you know, hours about how you've been so terribly treated, and you can start to move to a place where you might say, well, you know, I've had some bad things happen in life, but I've I've somehow managed to get past them. 00:39:04.680 --> 00:39:11.000 And, you start to take on what we call the the story of a hero instead of the story of a victim. 00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:11.160 Yeah. 00:39:11.160 --> 00:39:13.180 That's probably a sign you're turning a corner. 00:39:15.495 --> 00:39:16.395 Very good. 00:39:16.455 --> 00:39:23.275 Then another question, Lucia asked, would you please review the model of forgiving others again that you presented earlier? 00:39:23.735 --> 00:39:28.760 And then my question is, do you have a re the website you mentioned is a resource. 00:39:28.900 --> 00:39:29.300 Correct? 00:39:29.700 --> 00:39:40.660 If somebody wants to follow-up, read more, maybe take it to their parish youth ministry, where would what's good resources they could use, like, for a hands on? 00:39:40.660 --> 00:39:43.425 These are the steps helping people walk through this. 00:39:44.865 --> 00:39:46.065 I just put that in the chat. 00:39:46.065 --> 00:39:51.125 It's it's discoverforgiveness.org, that I was referencing earlier. 00:39:52.625 --> 00:39:54.085 There's lots of resources. 00:39:54.865 --> 00:39:58.465 We have a bunch of resources on our forgiveness foundation page. 00:39:58.465 --> 00:40:02.340 That would be, forgivenessfoundationinternational.org. 00:40:04.240 --> 00:40:15.725 And, you know, just all kinds of if you went to luther.edu and put in the first part of my email, t o u s l o zero one, you'll find some more things. 00:40:15.725 --> 00:40:22.365 If you look at my colleague's web page, at worthington.com, I think. 00:40:22.365 --> 00:40:23.985 At worthington.something. 00:40:25.005 --> 00:40:28.125 You know, Google Google at Worthington and forgiveness, and you'll get it. 00:40:28.125 --> 00:40:36.440 If you look at my other colleague, Fred Luskin's page, the Stanford forgiveness project, you will find resources there. 00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:42.300 There's no shortage of places to find, resources on forgiveness. 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:51.805 The ones that I'm mentioning here are ones that I trust, that I I feel are good resources, to help people, with their struggles. 00:40:52.185 --> 00:40:56.845 You will also find lots and lots of kinda pop culture around forgiveness. 00:40:57.385 --> 00:41:17.265 It's a topic that lots of people like to kind of pontificate on, but it's sometimes hard to tell what's, you know, what's good work that has been well supported, that is effective, and what is just people's kind of opinions about, you know, how to think about forgiveness. 00:41:17.805 --> 00:41:21.265 So someone was asking about the process of forgiving others. 00:41:21.725 --> 00:41:33.800 So let me back up, because that's I'm I'm delighted that you asked about that, and I'm gonna figure out, there we go. 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:36.140 I'm gonna back up to that. 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:40.140 It starts with remembering. 00:41:41.080 --> 00:41:49.425 So this I don't know if you can see my mouse move, but, it starts with remembering and then leads into empathy. 00:41:49.425 --> 00:42:11.860 So the the key thing that we think about, when we talk about forgiveness is, you know, we we want to, we want to know what it is that we are trying to forgive. 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:19.615 And so it's it's it's really important that we start there. 00:42:21.515 --> 00:42:25.995 Remembering is, it's just key. 00:42:25.995 --> 00:42:34.840 If you don't know what you're trying to accomplish, there's there's just not much success to be had. 00:42:35.160 --> 00:42:36.280 I I put it this way. 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:40.140 I put it you know, an analogy would be to say, I wanna be a better person. 00:42:41.555 --> 00:42:46.535 You know, that's great, but, what specifically do you want to do? 00:42:46.835 --> 00:42:57.990 And the same thing is true in in the case of, of forgiveness that you might wanna be a more forgiving person, but you gotta start with something. 00:42:58.210 --> 00:43:07.350 And so remember, you know, whatever hurtful thing it is that that you wanna kinda try to work on and start with that and move forward with that. 00:43:07.875 --> 00:43:15.635 That leads to empathizing, and empathy is you might say, you know, as a kid, I loved the teeter totter. 00:43:15.635 --> 00:43:23.270 The fulcrum is the middle point that everything kind of shifts around, and the fulcrum for forgiveness might be empathy. 00:43:24.210 --> 00:43:35.835 If you can't find a way to to find some way to see the other person's side of this, it it might be a real short road for forgiveness. 00:43:37.175 --> 00:43:38.235 Some people can't. 00:43:38.295 --> 00:43:39.675 They just can't empathize. 00:43:40.775 --> 00:43:51.170 In my case that I write about in in my blog, you know, I had I had to kinda think a little bit about my boss at the time, what they were thinking about when they offended me. 00:43:51.550 --> 00:43:56.830 And after I thought a little bit about that, it just kinda it eased a little bit of the pain. 00:43:56.990 --> 00:43:59.565 I was able to say, oh, yeah. 00:43:59.565 --> 00:44:01.645 Maybe there is a way I can forgive this person. 00:44:01.645 --> 00:44:04.685 They're they're not evil to the core the way I thought they were. 00:44:04.685 --> 00:44:08.385 If you can't empathize, at least try to sympathize. 00:44:09.325 --> 00:44:11.245 Can you feel sorry for the person? 00:44:11.245 --> 00:44:17.420 Is there, you know, is there some way that you can kinda recontextualize this a little bit? 00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:26.680 And, and then you move on to the idea of altruism, and that is to say that we've all needed to be forgiven at some point. 00:44:26.680 --> 00:44:35.895 And if you're unwilling to forgive, then, if you know your scripture at all, you know that that's a bad place to be. 00:44:35.895 --> 00:44:42.395 Because if you're unwilling to forgive, then you are granted nothing in return. 00:44:42.855 --> 00:44:48.700 And so the idea that you have been given an unearned that's altruism. 00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:49.500 It's unearned. 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:56.295 You're you're helping, and you're giving, and no one deserves it. 00:44:57.175 --> 00:45:04.455 And that's the same gift that you've been given, and if you're unwilling to give it back, that's really a tough spot to be. 00:45:04.455 --> 00:45:10.455 And usually, that's a pretty powerful motivator, for people to to realize, okay. 00:45:10.455 --> 00:45:14.270 So I'm convinced then I'm not gonna forgive this person. 00:45:14.270 --> 00:45:16.270 And, you know, my response is then, okay. 00:45:16.270 --> 00:45:19.010 So you're ready to never be forgiven yourself then. 00:45:19.950 --> 00:45:28.655 And if that's the those are the options that you're up against, you maybe feel like there's some way you could find a way to forgive this person. 00:45:30.395 --> 00:45:42.610 The notion of commitment follows, and commitment is all about, the fact that sometimes changes are easy to make or they're easier than you might think, but they're harder to maintain. 00:45:42.830 --> 00:45:52.505 And that's a really difficult part of any process of change is that you don't you you not only have to make the change, you have to maintain it. 00:45:52.505 --> 00:45:53.965 You have to commit to it. 00:45:54.505 --> 00:46:00.525 And then holding on represents the notion that, you will be challenged. 00:46:00.665 --> 00:46:18.255 And when you are, you need to overcome those challenges, recognizing that it's not a sign of weakness or failure, that you might have feelings of revenge bubbling back up in you the first time that you encounter the person in person again and you really wanna lash out at them. 00:46:18.335 --> 00:46:20.735 That doesn't mean that you're a terrible, unforgiving person. 00:46:20.735 --> 00:46:27.635 It means that you're normal and that, in a weak moment, some of these things really kind of overcame you. 00:46:28.175 --> 00:46:43.660 But, finding a way to calm yourself to, you know, reorient your commitment, reorient yourself to your commitment to forgive, think about the empathy, you know, try to see their perspective in the equation, think about being an altruistic person. 00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:53.625 All of those things have to come back to bear on those times in which you're gonna be challenged and that you need to overcome those, those hurdles. 00:46:54.325 --> 00:46:55.925 So I forget. 00:46:55.925 --> 00:46:57.845 I was trying to follow the chat a little bit here. 00:46:57.845 --> 00:47:01.460 I don't know who asked that question, but I hope that's, sufficient. 00:47:01.520 --> 00:47:05.460 There are many, many exercises built into each one of these steps. 00:47:06.080 --> 00:47:07.840 This is Everett Worthington's model. 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:15.620 It's called the reach model, and, evworthington.com or or something, has has those. 00:47:16.855 --> 00:47:25.995 He has a workbook available there, that you could go and and use, if you wanted to go in even greater depth into those steps. 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:29.560 Yeah. 00:47:29.560 --> 00:47:30.520 Thank you very much. 00:47:30.520 --> 00:47:33.400 Very helpful, really so much to unpack, right. 00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:36.780 So, so much to go further and deeper. 00:47:37.240 --> 00:47:43.160 So, so going back to the, one, one final question before we close, I don't see any other questions in the chat. 00:47:43.160 --> 00:48:08.630 So, if you're thinking community and forgiveness, right, I'm curious when some of the community is willing to forgive, some not, or how do you what's your research or your experience with rights community, wanting to forgive, not wanting to forgive, right, that, working with those different big range, right, probably of attitudes and willingness to move forward? 00:48:10.945 --> 00:48:11.445 Yeah. 00:48:12.465 --> 00:48:14.145 That's the hard part of it. 00:48:14.385 --> 00:48:30.370 When we were doing our, our community forgiveness work here, on the campus, you know, like I said, we we had we had just blitzed the campus community with forgiveness. 00:48:31.790 --> 00:48:42.025 And in the midst of that, you know, we had a bunch of articles going into the student newspaper, back when student newspapers were printed on on an actual rag. 00:48:42.025 --> 00:48:42.505 You know? 00:48:42.505 --> 00:48:43.385 It was kinda fun. 00:48:43.385 --> 00:48:46.525 I was picking it up and reading each day like, oh, that's a good one. 00:48:47.385 --> 00:49:05.960 And then I picked it up one day, and I read an article that was, you know, pretty, I wouldn't say insulting, but it was just it was kind of negative toward forgiveness, and they were, you know, kind of saying this is, I kinda wish you guys would stop doing this. 00:49:06.820 --> 00:49:11.345 At best, you're making everyone who's not real forgiving or real excited about forgiving feel bad. 00:49:12.205 --> 00:49:19.905 So there is that aspect of, at the community level, creating consensus and building consensus. 00:49:20.285 --> 00:49:34.720 And, while I'd like to believe I'm taking on more of that role as I get a little older and a little further into my career, you know, it's still one of those things that we all have to kinda grow into. 00:49:36.385 --> 00:49:53.890 And and sometimes people who are younger are really good at it right away, but community building, consensus raising, you know, developing kind of a following, creating a cohesiveness to the way that a group thinks. 00:49:54.190 --> 00:49:56.370 These are characteristics of leadership. 00:49:56.750 --> 00:49:57.150 Right? 00:49:57.150 --> 00:50:00.110 Good leaders do these things. 00:50:00.110 --> 00:50:01.570 They bring people together. 00:50:01.630 --> 00:50:03.890 They unite them around common causes. 00:50:04.110 --> 00:50:06.850 They lead them in positive directions. 00:50:10.945 --> 00:50:18.305 We need leaders who are ultimately in some of the things that I've just talked about. 00:50:18.305 --> 00:50:19.205 They're models. 00:50:19.425 --> 00:50:21.285 They're role models of forgiveness. 00:50:22.310 --> 00:50:30.250 We need leaders that embrace forgiveness as a core requirement of the communities that they lead. 00:50:31.510 --> 00:50:45.505 And that's, that's the best answer I can give in in terms of, there are probably no secret remedies for building consensus in groups. 00:50:46.205 --> 00:51:06.240 We know there are things that help and things that hurt to build cohesiveness in groups from social psychology, but, you know, when when good leaders can can create a kind of overarching goal that that kind of brings everyone together focused around a single mission, incredible things can happen. 00:51:06.345 --> 00:51:06.585 Right? 00:51:06.585 --> 00:51:19.805 When we when we leave our differences aside and say we need to we need to let these lesser things be something that takes up less of our time, and we need to focus on the big stuff and get that right. 00:51:20.890 --> 00:51:24.510 That's where you can really see incredible change take place. 00:51:26.090 --> 00:51:28.890 You know, that's my hope that's my hope and prayer for Mhmm. 00:51:29.210 --> 00:51:33.390 All communities that are struggling with conflict and violence and injustice. 00:51:33.690 --> 00:51:34.670 And Yeah. 00:51:35.455 --> 00:51:38.655 So so there's one last question that popped in the chat is Yeah. 00:51:38.735 --> 00:51:40.835 You mentioned that forgiveness is a trait. 00:51:41.215 --> 00:51:47.475 Is there a forgiveness assessment scale that may help to determine where my one might fall on this scale? 00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:48.000 Yeah. 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:48.500 Absolutely. 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.380 There are actually several of them. 00:51:52.560 --> 00:51:55.860 The trait forgiveness scale comes to mind very quickly. 00:51:57.120 --> 00:52:00.320 That's been around for probably fifteen years. 00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:01.460 It's been used widely. 00:52:02.985 --> 00:52:12.205 There might not be, in terms of norms, if you wanna compare yourself to where you stand, the norms might be a little hard for you to find. 00:52:13.465 --> 00:52:17.085 There is a tool called the Enright Forgiveness Inventory. 00:52:17.225 --> 00:52:20.340 That's a a long standing tool as well. 00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:23.940 The EFI for short, Enright. 00:52:24.240 --> 00:52:31.680 Bob Enright is a few hours for me at the University of Wisconsin, and developed that scale also probably some twenty years ago. 00:52:31.680 --> 00:52:34.035 So it's been used for a long time. 00:52:35.135 --> 00:52:53.430 I'm thinking of the, what is known it's a really long name, but it it's the transgression related, transgression related inventory, of, motivations, something to that, effect. 00:52:53.430 --> 00:52:54.970 It's short is the trim. 00:52:56.870 --> 00:52:58.695 That's another, good scale. 00:52:58.695 --> 00:53:03.675 There are several others that, you know, are are the the names of them aren't relevant here. 00:53:04.535 --> 00:53:20.640 But, certainly, if someone wanted, you know, just, either for just kind of fun or for personal insight or self help, if you wanted any of those kinds of scales, I can certainly send them and send, and send some easy reference points. 00:53:20.640 --> 00:53:24.020 I use those often in classes, and I I have the reference points. 00:53:24.240 --> 00:53:27.040 You know, this is what the average is in a group of college students. 00:53:27.040 --> 00:53:28.660 This is what the average is in adults. 00:53:28.695 --> 00:53:29.355 You know? 00:53:30.135 --> 00:53:30.695 So yeah. 00:53:30.695 --> 00:53:31.195 Absolutely. 00:53:31.655 --> 00:53:41.675 Anyone interested in that, please, you know, either let doctor Klausie know or myself, and and I'm I'd be happy to share that. 00:53:42.520 --> 00:53:43.020 Wonderful. 00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:45.420 Thank you so much. 00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:49.100 What a helpful glimpse. 00:53:49.240 --> 00:53:49.640 Right? 00:53:49.640 --> 00:53:50.440 First glimpse. 00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:56.965 And I think, giving an appetite for more and just even listening to you. 00:53:56.965 --> 00:53:57.285 Right? 00:53:57.285 --> 00:54:01.705 I'm thinking so many areas of, application. 00:54:01.925 --> 00:54:02.325 Right? 00:54:02.325 --> 00:54:03.125 It's just Yeah. 00:54:03.285 --> 00:54:03.785 Incredible. 00:54:03.925 --> 00:54:10.760 And I need to teach people that it's possible, and introduce the concepts. 00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:13.320 And, so thank you very much. 00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:14.620 This is, wonderful. 00:54:15.240 --> 00:54:19.080 Really, really appreciate your input, and thank you every much for coming. 00:54:19.080 --> 00:54:23.875 Everybody who's been able to come, we'll, send the recording out. 00:54:23.875 --> 00:54:29.415 I know we have, so many people in all time zones of this world in our program. 00:54:29.875 --> 00:54:38.110 So for those who are on the Asian side, I guess, they're probably asleep, or Australia and Africa, probably also. 00:54:39.130 --> 00:54:41.610 So, anyway but, we'll send out the recording. 00:54:41.610 --> 00:54:43.770 And thank you again so much, doctor Toussaint. 00:54:43.770 --> 00:54:44.990 It was really wonderful. 00:54:45.610 --> 00:54:46.810 Really, really appreciate. 00:54:46.810 --> 00:54:48.570 And, good night to everybody. 00:54:48.570 --> 00:54:51.470 Thank you for coming, and so good to have everybody. 00:54:52.225 --> 00:54:52.385 Thank you. 00:54:52.385 --> 00:54:56.225 And your next IVS Global Talk will be starting again in the fall. 00:54:56.225 --> 00:54:58.085 We do two in the fall, two in the spring. 00:54:58.385 --> 00:55:02.065 So stay posted for announcements for the fall talks. 00:55:02.065 --> 00:55:04.005 But thank you so much. 00:55:04.065 --> 00:55:06.160 I really appreciate your input. 00:55:06.160 --> 00:55:06.720 Thank you. 00:55:06.720 --> 00:55:08.160 It was my honor, my privilege. 00:55:08.160 --> 00:55:09.040 Thank you so much. 00:55:09.040 --> 00:55:10.180 Enjoyed it greatly.