WEBVTT 00:00:09.280 --> 00:00:13.300 Father Charles, do you wanna start us have a little prayer here for our conversation today? 00:00:13.795 --> 00:00:14.295 Absolutely. 00:00:14.355 --> 00:00:16.275 Name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. 00:00:16.275 --> 00:00:16.595 Amen. 00:00:16.595 --> 00:00:21.975 Heavenly father, we ask you to send your holy spirit to guide us in this conversation. 00:00:25.235 --> 00:00:44.295 Give us insight to talk about this important topic of spiritual direction and how important it is for each one of us and all those we work with to guide souls to a deeper relationship with your son, Jesus Christ, and they seek with great fervor, and desire to do your will in all things. 00:00:44.835 --> 00:00:47.895 So we ask you for your guidance and your holy spirit to be with us. 00:00:48.915 --> 00:00:52.035 The name of our lord Jesus Christ, father of the Son, Holy Spirit. 00:00:52.035 --> 00:00:52.535 Amen. 00:00:52.595 --> 00:00:53.095 Amen. 00:00:53.620 --> 00:01:01.800 Well, we're excited to have today here, you know, a a few distinguished guests for a for a conversation on spiritual direction. 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:04.180 And, so father Charles is here. 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:06.040 Father Charles, wanna introduce yourself? 00:01:06.565 --> 00:01:07.925 I'm father Charles Sikorsky. 00:01:07.925 --> 00:01:16.025 I'm the president of Divine Mercy University, and proud leader of our spirit being a part of our spiritual direction course. 00:01:17.045 --> 00:01:18.185 Dan, go ahead. 00:01:18.245 --> 00:01:34.760 I'm the president and founder of the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation, And, we, of course, have graduate spiritual graduate studies in spiritual theology, and we do priestly formation for a 100 dioceses, around The US and then and internationally. 00:01:36.015 --> 00:01:38.115 And then, of course, we have a spiritual direction program. 00:01:38.175 --> 00:01:44.015 Also, families of your spiritual direction program and the one that father Boniface said at Saint Vincent. 00:01:44.015 --> 00:01:53.490 So we're all really I think I think it's cool that we're all sitting here because we're we're in in the world, we'd be competing institutions. 00:01:55.150 --> 00:01:59.510 But in in the kingdom, at least the way we all behave Mhmm. 00:01:59.630 --> 00:02:03.725 Which is awesome, is we're here to help help. 00:02:03.725 --> 00:02:05.905 We need as many spiritual directors as we can get. 00:02:05.965 --> 00:02:06.465 Exactly. 00:02:06.525 --> 00:02:07.005 Amen. 00:02:07.005 --> 00:02:08.605 We need them from Saint Vincent's. 00:02:08.605 --> 00:02:10.045 What is the program called there? 00:02:10.045 --> 00:02:10.365 Yeah. 00:02:10.365 --> 00:02:12.305 It's the Institute for Ministry Formation. 00:02:12.365 --> 00:02:13.265 At Saint Vincent. 00:02:13.565 --> 00:02:16.750 I should know that because we help part of our team helped set up your booth today. 00:02:16.750 --> 00:02:21.250 But and then find mercy is a spiritual directing program, the Abbo Institute. 00:02:21.550 --> 00:02:23.490 I mean, we need more directors. 00:02:23.710 --> 00:02:25.570 They need more people who care for souls. 00:02:25.950 --> 00:02:33.965 And so to me, the the more, the merrier as long as they're orthodox, and you guys are all orthodox, and it wasn't like that ten years ago. 00:02:34.105 --> 00:02:34.605 Exactly. 00:02:34.985 --> 00:02:36.425 I think that's why we came about. 00:02:36.425 --> 00:02:36.905 Right? 00:02:36.905 --> 00:02:37.225 It is. 00:02:37.225 --> 00:02:39.785 Well, that's been our motivation is to go, okay. 00:02:39.785 --> 00:03:03.805 We need to come against, you know, the forces that really want to, you know, syncretism or wanna wanna blend the faith with non Christian Eastern spirituality or an an excess of emphasis with secular psychology or marriage with secular psychology with Divine Mercy University has really been on the forefront of of properly getting those things in proper order. 00:03:03.805 --> 00:03:04.125 Mhmm. 00:03:04.125 --> 00:03:04.625 Right? 00:03:05.085 --> 00:03:07.405 So, yeah, it's it's a great work with you guys. 00:03:07.405 --> 00:03:08.365 Thank you, Dan. 00:03:08.365 --> 00:03:09.725 Well, I'm Maria Brackett. 00:03:09.725 --> 00:03:20.630 I'm the director of the spiritual direction certificate here at Divine Mercy University, spiritual director myself and just someone that's, always been passionate about helping people know the Lord better. 00:03:21.090 --> 00:03:21.910 Father Boniface. 00:03:22.050 --> 00:03:23.490 And Father Boniface Hicks. 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:29.910 I'm the director of the Institute for Ministry Formation and also the director of spiritual formation at Saint Vincent Seminary. 00:03:30.585 --> 00:03:40.765 And, yeah, spiritual direction's been, life changing for me, and I fully agree with Dan about the need for more and and also the beauty of the variety. 00:03:41.145 --> 00:03:47.300 I I always call it resisting the Irish potato famine, which resulted from having only one variety of potatoes. 00:03:47.300 --> 00:04:04.625 So I'm happy for multiple spiritual direction programs, each with their own emphasis and nuances and and, opportunities in terms of in person and online and the different professors, and I think there's a beautiful diversity that's emerged in the in the church. 00:04:05.725 --> 00:04:09.325 Really remarkably, I spiritual direction, I think, sixty years ago. 00:04:09.325 --> 00:04:14.125 I mean, basically, even seminarians and religious weren't getting spiritual direction sixty years ago. 00:04:14.125 --> 00:04:14.520 Right. 00:04:14.600 --> 00:04:20.700 And now there's such an urge, I think, really welling up from the hearts of the faithful under the movement of the holy spirit. 00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:27.000 There's a real desire to receive it and a real desire to be formed and to to to respond to that need. 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:27.880 So Yeah. 00:04:27.880 --> 00:04:37.235 I think too, Divine Mercy University, you know, I mentioned this led the way in a in a authentic Catholic anthropology, you know, as a foundation. 00:04:37.235 --> 00:04:38.995 I think you guys you guys have been out there. 00:04:38.995 --> 00:04:40.215 How long have you been around? 00:04:40.435 --> 00:04:41.955 We've been around twenty five years. 00:04:41.955 --> 00:04:42.595 Twenty five years. 00:04:42.595 --> 00:04:48.490 They've still cut the path, that I think has caused some of this interest Mhmm. 00:04:48.650 --> 00:04:51.790 Of authentic Catholic formation in the realm of psychology. 00:04:52.090 --> 00:04:56.910 And psychology's always got a kind of a close relationship with spiritual direction. 00:04:57.370 --> 00:04:57.610 Mhmm. 00:04:57.610 --> 00:05:03.105 And and Divine Mercy Universe, it's one of the reasons I trust your programs and and why we're we're happy. 00:05:03.105 --> 00:05:06.665 Of course, Father Boniface teaches for our hard calling program, and Mhmm. 00:05:06.785 --> 00:05:08.705 We know him well, but we know you guys well too. 00:05:08.705 --> 00:05:20.410 But, fully orthodox, sound philosophy and theology, and, you know, it's just nothing but good for the church to have more institutions and especially working together. 00:05:20.410 --> 00:05:22.490 And to follow-up, Dan, what you're saying is a great point. 00:05:22.490 --> 00:05:30.510 You know, I think in many ways, for a while, at least in some in some places, try to reduce spiritual direction to psychology. 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:31.065 Right. 00:05:31.305 --> 00:05:38.105 And as almost in psychology as a replacement for spiritual life and spiritual direction, and that's wrong. 00:05:38.105 --> 00:05:39.325 It should be a compliment. 00:05:40.425 --> 00:05:43.145 We start off by thinking how grace builds on nature. 00:05:43.145 --> 00:05:54.380 And so stronger we can help human nature let, be spend God's grace in spiritual life as a much better platform, to work with. 00:05:54.380 --> 00:05:55.740 We got a lot more to work with. 00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:58.025 And so, it should be complimentary. 00:05:58.165 --> 00:06:04.025 And, obviously, the spiritual life is superior to to the to the human, but the human needs to be healthy. 00:06:04.165 --> 00:06:04.405 Yeah. 00:06:04.405 --> 00:06:04.725 Yeah. 00:06:04.725 --> 00:06:05.445 How is it going? 00:06:05.445 --> 00:06:05.605 Yeah. 00:06:05.605 --> 00:06:11.410 And we gotta get spiritual by often right in order to get healed psychologically. 00:06:11.710 --> 00:06:11.950 Yeah. 00:06:11.950 --> 00:06:12.430 Exactly. 00:06:12.430 --> 00:06:13.730 They're so intertwined. 00:06:14.030 --> 00:06:14.270 Yeah. 00:06:14.270 --> 00:06:19.090 Or when you're blocked spiritually to dig into the psychology and see what's in the way. 00:06:19.310 --> 00:06:21.665 I mean, they they should be complimentary. 00:06:22.765 --> 00:06:27.265 So, brother, Ronnoffus, tell us I mean, I know some about your fervor, but not tons. 00:06:28.845 --> 00:06:29.905 But it's a certificate. 00:06:30.045 --> 00:06:32.945 Like, how do you guys do the training for spiritual directors? 00:06:33.550 --> 00:06:33.790 Yeah. 00:06:33.790 --> 00:06:42.670 So we're, accredited through Saint Vincent Seminary, and then we kind of run the program in more of that context. 00:06:42.670 --> 00:06:44.530 So there are courses, credits. 00:06:44.910 --> 00:06:49.265 So it's 18 credits, which you, can finish in two years. 00:06:50.045 --> 00:06:54.525 It takes at least a year before you can enter into the practicum, which could be the second year. 00:06:54.525 --> 00:06:57.745 So you could do much of it in a year, but then the practicum in the second year. 00:06:58.125 --> 00:07:05.690 And, but also spreading it out in courses makes it possible to make it a little longer, a little bit shorter, a little bit more variety. 00:07:06.870 --> 00:07:16.490 And then some people who, who have already done, in some cases, your programs, but might wanna draw some wisdom from ours can just take a course or two in a particular area. 00:07:17.805 --> 00:07:21.985 We do have a a fairly deep psychological foundation. 00:07:22.205 --> 00:07:27.545 My spiritual father and the coauthor of our book is a psychoanalyst of forty some years Oh, you're right. 00:07:27.685 --> 00:07:29.025 And, father Thomas Ackland. 00:07:29.085 --> 00:07:29.565 Yeah. 00:07:29.565 --> 00:07:34.240 And and then I've also had a lot of, friendship with the folks at Souls and Hearts. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.620 So Jerry Crete, he's, taught one of our courses in the spring. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:45.220 So integrating some dimensions of parts work and internal family systems in a loose way, has been part of that. 00:07:45.465 --> 00:07:57.725 And then, otherwise, just sort of the riches of Saint Vincent Seminary and the kinda graduate all of our professors are, doctors in various places, various areas of, of theology. 00:07:58.105 --> 00:08:00.580 So some of that richness as well. 00:08:00.580 --> 00:08:10.280 So one of my one of the faculty members, in the spiritual director certificate is a counselor from a graduate from Divine Mercy University, but she works with with doctor Peter. 00:08:10.580 --> 00:08:14.200 She runs one of the groups for the community of resilient Catholics. 00:08:14.785 --> 00:08:21.285 And, doctor Jerry helped us to design our one of our family systems courses at the university. 00:08:21.345 --> 00:08:23.265 So there's a lot of overlapping Oh, yeah. 00:08:23.505 --> 00:08:25.025 People, which is great. 00:08:25.025 --> 00:08:25.425 You know? 00:08:25.425 --> 00:08:38.380 And I I think that having these experts that are dedicated, whether in theology or in the human sciences, it just brings the richness of the whole Catholic tradition to our students. 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:39.160 I totally agree. 00:08:39.160 --> 00:08:47.025 Which is so important, you know, because, there's been times in history that we've almost felt like that's been hijacked a little bit by someone else. 00:08:47.025 --> 00:08:51.205 But but really when and I'm sure you all have the same experience. 00:08:51.265 --> 00:08:59.490 When the students actually get into these studies and they start experiencing just what riches this area is and how it helps them. 00:08:59.490 --> 00:09:03.330 I'm sure you both have the same experience in your program that we have in ours. 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:08.230 That that that students say, the first thing that this did was help me Yeah. 00:09:08.555 --> 00:09:14.415 Reconnect on a deeper level with the Lord and grow in my own relationship with him. 00:09:14.875 --> 00:09:15.375 Exactly. 00:09:15.435 --> 00:09:15.755 Yeah. 00:09:15.755 --> 00:09:26.920 It it's it's that's one of the most beautiful aspects of watching students in the program is having them go through their own spiritual transformation by you know, they're motivated usually to help other people. 00:09:27.060 --> 00:09:27.460 Yeah. 00:09:27.460 --> 00:09:31.880 And then they get in and and often don't realize how much they don't know. 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:35.300 And and sometimes they know a lot, but we're filling in all the gaps. 00:09:35.300 --> 00:09:45.195 But, also, probably similarly, because we're all kind of cut out of a very similar essential cloth, is we want everyone to have an encounter with Jesus. 00:09:45.415 --> 00:09:45.815 Mhmm. 00:09:45.815 --> 00:09:51.060 We want everyone to know him at a deeper way and to know the church in a deeper transformative way. 00:09:51.220 --> 00:09:58.900 And so as we help them with that, I think what we're doing was producing spiritual directors that are not just knowledgeable Mhmm. 00:09:59.060 --> 00:10:00.980 But they're also transformed Absolutely. 00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:08.825 By a deeper encounter with the Lord, with the saints, with the sacraments, with all the great glory that is the Catholic church. 00:10:08.825 --> 00:10:09.145 Yeah. 00:10:09.145 --> 00:10:19.805 So it's it's it's way different than, you know, other models that are just purely, as you said, father, psychological or in psychological from a secular standpoint. 00:10:20.025 --> 00:10:20.345 Mhmm. 00:10:20.345 --> 00:10:20.825 But yeah. 00:10:20.825 --> 00:10:27.200 I mean, that's my favorite part of being involved, and I'm not anywhere near as qualified as anyone I'm sitting next to. 00:10:27.420 --> 00:10:37.245 But I teach some introductory courses, and my favorite part of being involved with those things is just watching that transformation happen when people move deeper in relationship with God. 00:10:37.245 --> 00:10:37.485 Yeah. 00:10:37.485 --> 00:10:37.985 Exactly. 00:10:38.125 --> 00:10:38.625 Yeah. 00:10:39.085 --> 00:10:39.325 And Yeah. 00:10:39.325 --> 00:10:39.825 Exactly. 00:10:40.285 --> 00:10:43.645 And we're it's such a blessing in in terms of spiritual direction. 00:10:43.645 --> 00:10:48.845 We tend to be getting students, and I know we have a requirement that they've been in spiritual direction for a year. 00:10:48.845 --> 00:11:10.835 And so it's people who are already very serious about their own relationship with the Lord, but then it just opens up a whole other dimension as they see how they could be taking advantage of spiritual direction more deeply, how they could be praying more deeply, how they could really, then also start to minister to others and benefit from when you start to spend time in the hearts of other people, it helps to open up your own heart Totally. 00:11:11.075 --> 00:11:13.235 And, and deepen your own relationship with the Lord. 00:11:13.235 --> 00:11:17.095 So Well, it's because the the encounter with another is an encounter with Jesus. 00:11:17.350 --> 00:11:17.670 Yes, sir. 00:11:17.670 --> 00:11:18.070 Right? 00:11:18.070 --> 00:11:30.405 But when you see Jesus in the other and you're and I one of my favorite parts of, I think, this whole world of Catholic authentic Catholic spiritual direction is this mutual trans I know it. 00:11:30.405 --> 00:11:31.125 How would you call it? 00:11:31.125 --> 00:11:32.505 Vulnerability Mhmm. 00:11:32.725 --> 00:11:35.465 That we can have with people who are seeking the Lord. 00:11:35.605 --> 00:11:44.460 That mutual vulnerability, that walking together with Jesus is so much more powerful than, you know, a kind of model that creates the separation. 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.720 Like, you're the expert, and you're here to be fixed. 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:48.600 That doesn't work. 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:48.920 Right. 00:11:48.920 --> 00:11:49.320 Right. 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:53.240 We're here to walk together deeper and with Lord. 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:58.885 Whenever I pray with a direct deed, I'm always at I pray in we, not for them. 00:11:58.885 --> 00:12:00.025 I pray for us. 00:12:00.165 --> 00:12:00.485 Yeah. 00:12:00.485 --> 00:12:04.185 So that we could hear the will of God and then have the courage to follow. 00:12:04.405 --> 00:12:06.665 So it's not about fixing other people. 00:12:07.205 --> 00:12:09.205 It's not about controlling other people. 00:12:09.205 --> 00:12:13.360 It's about walking together deeper in relationship with him. 00:12:13.900 --> 00:12:14.720 Oh, you know? 00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:16.060 Sorry for the energy. 00:12:16.060 --> 00:12:17.040 I just love No. 00:12:17.100 --> 00:12:17.580 That's great. 00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:19.740 I love I love what you guys are doing. 00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:27.040 You know, it's both in in the formation of the students, but also just in the execution of doing spiritual directions without any better word. 00:12:27.685 --> 00:12:37.685 Just taking delight in admiring the beautiful things that god does inside of other souls is so enriching for your own soul as a director Mhmm. 00:12:37.765 --> 00:12:42.830 Or as a priest in confession, you just you see your faith is strengthened. 00:12:42.830 --> 00:12:49.330 Your your your, you know, your your relationship with grace grows by doing it and get to see god. 00:12:49.390 --> 00:12:52.430 You get to see god way at work, and you see his action. 00:12:52.430 --> 00:12:55.845 And, you know Brings you into prayer. 00:12:55.845 --> 00:12:56.405 That's for sure. 00:12:56.405 --> 00:12:56.905 Yeah. 00:12:57.205 --> 00:13:02.725 It's one of the one of the I think one of the one of the greatest ways to to grow in your own your own spiritual life. 00:13:02.725 --> 00:13:03.205 You know what? 00:13:03.205 --> 00:13:05.605 I out of curiosity to ask you, if you don't mind. 00:13:05.605 --> 00:13:05.845 No. 00:13:05.845 --> 00:13:06.485 Go ahead. 00:13:06.965 --> 00:13:15.200 What do you think are the greatest barriers to people who might have a call to spiritual direction that we could maybe dispel? 00:13:15.980 --> 00:13:22.320 So I would because I would love for our conversation to result in a 100 more, you know, people Yeah. 00:13:22.380 --> 00:13:22.880 Exactly. 00:13:23.180 --> 00:13:23.330 Right? 00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:23.980 Program. 00:13:23.980 --> 00:13:27.255 So what do you what have you seen as the greatest barrier? 00:13:27.315 --> 00:13:43.990 You you touched on it, just a moment ago in terms of this idea that the spear spiritual director is supposed to have all the answers as if they sort of sit somewhere, issuing all of the wisdom from, I don't know, you know, the the swami up on the mountain levitating somehow. 00:13:45.010 --> 00:13:51.570 Now, again, I I don't think somebody should give spiritual direction unless they're receiving it, and hopefully, they're receiving it in a way that they know that's not true. 00:13:51.570 --> 00:13:51.975 Yeah. 00:13:52.055 --> 00:13:53.575 But I would just emphasize that fact. 00:13:53.575 --> 00:14:02.635 It's really about a deepening relationship in Christ with someone rather than somebody who has the answers and is supposed to give all of the answers to someone else. 00:14:02.695 --> 00:14:03.495 Oh, very good. 00:14:03.495 --> 00:14:03.975 Very good. 00:14:03.975 --> 00:14:04.215 Yeah. 00:14:04.215 --> 00:14:13.190 And I kind of concur with that because one of the experiences that our students have in the first residency, we have, well, we have two courses and then they come on campus. 00:14:13.190 --> 00:14:17.910 So everything they do before that time is online through Zoom and everything like that. 00:14:17.910 --> 00:14:20.890 So a lot of virtual, work. 00:14:21.265 --> 00:14:24.965 But then after that, they come on campus for their first residency. 00:14:25.505 --> 00:14:37.250 And that first residency, we just have to continually help them to be in contact with the Lord because what they are hearing inside of them is, I don't think I can do it. 00:14:37.250 --> 00:14:37.490 Yeah. 00:14:37.490 --> 00:14:37.650 Yeah. 00:14:37.650 --> 00:14:39.090 I don't know if I can do this. 00:14:39.090 --> 00:14:39.330 Right. 00:14:39.330 --> 00:14:42.250 I'll you know, who do who do I think that I am Right. 00:14:42.450 --> 00:14:43.590 To be doing this? 00:14:43.650 --> 00:14:44.050 Really. 00:14:44.050 --> 00:14:50.925 And so it's just, you know, we we always have a prayer time on our, you know, our full morning that we dedicate to retreat when they're on campus. 00:14:51.545 --> 00:15:10.220 And that's one of the things that they have to walk through and just be strengthened and get and and I you know, the Lord shows up again and again in those moments for them and reassures them in in a way that I could never do, you know, because they're so, you know, such individuals in their own history. 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:14.780 And he just shows up and and they come to me and they say, oh, yeah. 00:15:14.920 --> 00:15:20.125 You said this or I saw this or I was strengthened in this way, and and we're gonna move forward. 00:15:20.665 --> 00:15:20.905 Yeah. 00:15:20.905 --> 00:15:25.385 It reminds me of, a say father Bonifold, both of your answer. 00:15:25.385 --> 00:15:39.000 I don't have a unique answer, but, the Saint John of the Cross warns, he says some who think they're very far along the way are not at all, and some who think they're not at all in the way are very far along. 00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:46.455 And I I would encourage people who are who are of the ladder, you know, who don't think much of themselves. 00:15:46.755 --> 00:15:51.415 See, he It it that's probably a very good basis, that humility. 00:15:52.035 --> 00:16:01.260 Because I worry more about people who come to school thinking, well, I'm here to get the degree or the certificate so that I can fix people. 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:02.620 And those are the most dangerous. 00:16:02.760 --> 00:16:03.260 Exactly. 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:03.820 Right? 00:16:03.880 --> 00:16:04.940 Those are the most dangerous. 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:23.900 At Heart of Christ, you know, it it probably the the biggest concern in terms of formation outside of spiritual theology and moral theology and all of different things we teach is is trying to undo that instinct because god and this goes back to your point. 00:16:24.040 --> 00:16:27.260 God is the one who shows up and helps us. 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:34.200 I don't I can't say how many times I've been giving direction, and I'm thinking I have no I have nowhere to go, Lord. 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:41.125 You're gonna have to show me this doesn't feel right, you know, where the where the directee is going in terms of what they think they need or whatever. 00:16:41.345 --> 00:16:43.845 And then he shows up and he says it's that way. 00:16:44.225 --> 00:16:45.285 You speak it. 00:16:45.985 --> 00:16:50.850 The resonance occurs in the soul because God's moving and speaking to all of you. 00:16:50.850 --> 00:16:54.450 And then suddenly, everything opens up and you're heading down the path. 00:16:54.450 --> 00:16:58.070 But it it's and we're there to share. 00:16:58.130 --> 00:17:02.850 We're not the like, you know, back to your point, father Bonavis, we're not the masters on the mountain. 00:17:02.850 --> 00:17:03.570 We're the servant. 00:17:03.570 --> 00:17:04.870 We're washing their feet. 00:17:05.345 --> 00:17:12.785 We're the ones, you know, doing the best we can to listen and pray as we're speaking, but but not as the masters, but as a servant. 00:17:12.785 --> 00:17:17.545 And I think we're all even in the realm of psychology, I don't know how you how you deal with that thing. 00:17:17.665 --> 00:17:18.065 Look right. 00:17:18.065 --> 00:17:19.205 It's the same thing. 00:17:19.580 --> 00:17:20.080 Yeah. 00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:21.820 Well, a lot of things are the same way. 00:17:21.820 --> 00:17:29.120 I I one one thing that's always stuck in my mind, I have several seminaries prior to ordination. 00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:34.160 They've been in the seminary several years, done very well, and they get close to ordination. 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:36.265 It's like, I just don't feel worthy. 00:17:36.645 --> 00:17:37.145 Right. 00:17:37.205 --> 00:17:41.365 And, maybe that's the final sign of confirmation of that vote. 00:17:41.365 --> 00:17:41.845 Yeah. 00:17:41.845 --> 00:17:42.345 Exactly. 00:17:42.405 --> 00:17:43.125 Because Yeah. 00:17:43.205 --> 00:17:49.980 As you know, as you said, Dan, I mean, that that has to be a foundational, you know, and and as being able to say, yeah. 00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:50.460 You're right. 00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:51.360 You're not qualified. 00:17:51.420 --> 00:17:51.820 Right. 00:17:51.820 --> 00:17:53.020 None of us are qualified. 00:17:53.020 --> 00:17:54.940 But it's god who works through us. 00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:57.900 And, usually, there's a different reason. 00:17:57.900 --> 00:18:03.520 Someone might have suggested that you be your own spiritual director or or someone who who knows you well. 00:18:03.695 --> 00:18:05.315 Well, they they see the qualities. 00:18:05.535 --> 00:18:11.055 And, so I I do think that it that can be a good sign. 00:18:11.055 --> 00:18:14.275 We don't feel like you're you're capable of doing it. 00:18:14.895 --> 00:18:17.390 And as you psychology is very similar. 00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:17.550 Right? 00:18:17.550 --> 00:18:22.350 If you think you have all the answers, you probably shouldn't be, talking to people. 00:18:22.350 --> 00:18:24.370 Come to Come to learn. 00:18:25.630 --> 00:18:25.950 Right? 00:18:25.950 --> 00:18:27.650 Because you'll learn and you don't. 00:18:27.710 --> 00:18:29.630 We we Glad we can try to do formation. 00:18:29.630 --> 00:18:30.110 That's right. 00:18:30.110 --> 00:18:31.215 Well, yeah. 00:18:31.215 --> 00:18:32.975 See if you can can get it all. 00:18:33.055 --> 00:18:33.615 Guys that. 00:18:33.615 --> 00:18:34.355 You're right. 00:18:34.495 --> 00:18:44.055 Well, we always ask for some type of a letter, you know, of recommendation from their own spiritual director who are, you know, very discreet, you know Sure. 00:18:44.061 --> 00:18:44.097 Because it is a confidential relationship. 00:18:44.097 --> 00:18:44.163 But just to kinda say, you know, what do you think? 00:18:44.163 --> 00:18:46.780 Do you think this relationship. 00:18:46.780 --> 00:18:49.420 But just to kinda say, you know, what do you think? 00:18:49.420 --> 00:18:51.540 Do you think this person would make a good spiritual director? 00:18:51.540 --> 00:18:59.240 Or you think this step is something that they should be, you know, to kinda hear from them and maybe their parish priest or someone that knows the person. 00:18:59.835 --> 00:19:11.695 And, we always say, you know, especially when I'm interviewing people to come into the program, have people been coming up to you and asking you advice about things in your spirit in their spiritual life? 00:19:11.755 --> 00:19:13.035 That's a pretty good sign. 00:19:13.035 --> 00:19:13.195 Yeah. 00:19:13.195 --> 00:19:13.595 That's right. 00:19:13.595 --> 00:19:14.490 That's right. 00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:16.830 You know, I'm hearing I'm learn you know, I'm learning. 00:19:17.290 --> 00:19:23.150 One of our employees is one of your students, of course, you know Claire at the school, at Spirit Stretching School. 00:19:23.290 --> 00:19:32.935 But in terms of some of the differences for people to know in terms of where they are in life and what program Is Are you guys mostly online, father Boniface? 00:19:33.235 --> 00:19:33.475 Yeah. 00:19:33.475 --> 00:19:37.035 We have we have two courses that can be done in person Okay. 00:19:37.155 --> 00:19:39.155 Where the entire program can be done online. 00:19:39.155 --> 00:19:45.770 And what I'm hearing at Vine Mercy is you're more, in I say, like, we're 80% online Okay. 00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:50.130 Because they do all the course work online, but once a year, the program's two years long. 00:19:50.130 --> 00:19:52.290 So once a year, they have to come in for a residence. 00:19:52.290 --> 00:19:52.610 Okay. 00:19:52.610 --> 00:19:54.130 And then we're kind of in between that. 00:19:54.130 --> 00:19:55.905 The heart of crisis in between. 00:19:55.905 --> 00:19:58.465 So depending on what you can or can't do Yeah. 00:19:58.465 --> 00:19:58.945 Exactly. 00:19:59.025 --> 00:20:05.365 Each school has an emphasis that'll help with your state in life or, you know, whatever it is. 00:20:05.825 --> 00:20:11.190 Then another thing that people often ask me is, like, what what spirituality do you have Oh, yeah. 00:20:11.270 --> 00:20:14.150 In your so that that might also be a difference. 00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:21.610 You know, I always tell them, we just we introduce you to the greats of the the Catholic tradition, and you that's what you're reading. 00:20:21.725 --> 00:20:26.945 We don't really imprint it with a certain spirituality because the university doesn't really have a spirituality. 00:20:27.165 --> 00:20:27.485 Right? 00:20:27.485 --> 00:20:30.385 But just kind of immerse them in the tradition. 00:20:30.685 --> 00:20:31.185 Right? 00:20:31.405 --> 00:20:35.510 And, so that's and and, of course, we study Carmelite. 00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:37.170 We study Saint John of the Cross. 00:20:37.170 --> 00:20:39.890 We study, Saint Benedict's rural. 00:20:39.890 --> 00:20:47.990 We you know, there's different texts, of course, the Jesuits, the, Saint Ignatius, right, especially when we're in that theme of discernment. 00:20:48.425 --> 00:20:52.585 But so we introduced them, but it's not like there's a certain spirituality that we're directed to. 00:20:52.585 --> 00:20:54.345 I don't know, for you guys. 00:20:54.345 --> 00:20:59.225 Do you feel like yours is, like, at the heart Benedictine, or how is No. 00:20:59.225 --> 00:21:00.585 I I've really come around. 00:21:01.465 --> 00:21:10.100 I think the really, the monastic tradition, which is the foundation of spiritual direction, the idea and I I don't even like the word direction. 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:23.615 Why I I prefer spiritual father, spiritual mother, because I think that's the relationship of total self disclosure and sort of mutual commitment that's there that develops over a long period of time in a in a formative way. 00:21:23.615 --> 00:21:30.920 So I we also share Carmelite things and Jesuit things, and there's a lot of of wisdom in some different places. 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:37.720 I'm often using different paradigms to get to the fastest path towards what I'm seeking in a particular area. 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:51.615 But but I would say the the basic modality from that sort of vulnerability sharing of interiority, long term commitment, more formative, tradition would be would be a more monastic or Benedictine flavor. 00:21:51.775 --> 00:21:53.475 Carmelite spirituality primarily. 00:21:54.030 --> 00:22:00.290 But as you know, the school as a whole, our desire is to unveil the riches of all. 00:22:00.430 --> 00:22:05.950 You know, I'd love to have, you know, deeper in Benedictine and deeper in in Dominican and all of that. 00:22:05.950 --> 00:22:13.705 But in the school, in in heart of Christ, it's Carmelite definitely in the realm of prayer and understanding the progress of the soul. 00:22:14.085 --> 00:22:19.225 And then Ignatian now John of the Cross is deeper water than Ignatius on discernment. 00:22:19.365 --> 00:22:19.605 Yeah. 00:22:19.605 --> 00:22:21.125 But he's way harder to get to. 00:22:21.125 --> 00:22:22.585 He's way harder to organize. 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.860 Ignatius is so so straight because he's he's practical. 00:22:27.320 --> 00:22:27.640 Yeah. 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:31.820 So we use Ignatius, discernment of wisdom, discernment of spirits. 00:22:32.360 --> 00:22:36.700 But that's another beauty about all the diff you know, what we're doing. 00:22:36.840 --> 00:22:43.855 It's all orthodox, but it it reflects different facets of the diamond of the church, which I which I love. 00:22:44.235 --> 00:22:50.715 So folks who are looking for different emphasis, if you're if you're more in the Benedictine tradition. 00:22:50.715 --> 00:22:51.795 But Men Yeah. 00:22:51.995 --> 00:22:56.390 I would say, though, any of the schools but there's a tremendous overlap. 00:22:56.450 --> 00:22:56.850 Yeah. 00:22:56.850 --> 00:22:59.890 What we're talking about is 90% overlap with a little Yeah. 00:23:00.050 --> 00:23:01.750 Sort of flavoring, coloring. 00:23:01.970 --> 00:23:02.470 Yeah. 00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:03.650 Yeah. 00:23:03.650 --> 00:23:04.290 And exactly. 00:23:04.290 --> 00:23:15.725 And since we are a graduate school of psychology and counseling, it's, you know, we definitely help the students to understand the difference between that and spiritual direction and what spiritual direction consists of and everything like that. 00:23:15.725 --> 00:23:24.280 But we do have the opportunity to, you know, bring in just a a a course on human development and how human relationships are formed. 00:23:24.280 --> 00:23:24.920 You know? 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:26.120 We take human development. 00:23:26.120 --> 00:23:27.880 We don't just see it by itself. 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.460 We see it from the lens of human relationships. 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:35.420 Kind of, you know, father Boniface, you had mentioned earlier about that, about relationships. 00:23:36.175 --> 00:23:40.595 And we have the students kind of look at how relationships have developed over their own life. 00:23:41.055 --> 00:23:48.830 And so that they, as a spiritual director, and I'm sure you do it, just have an awareness of what they bring as human beings into that relationship. 00:23:49.050 --> 00:23:49.370 You know? 00:23:49.370 --> 00:23:52.830 That maybe some of the movements that are gonna be happening in them too. 00:23:54.250 --> 00:23:59.630 So that that's kind of how we the human sciences at the universities get interwoven. 00:23:59.770 --> 00:24:18.960 And also just, some of the skills, just learning the listening, how to sit with someone, how to, how to be aware of your own interior noise so that you can take stock of that and bring it to your own spiritual direction prayer as you're sitting with someone, that's important to you. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.360 And and those are the some of the elements that would maybe come back to Dan's question again. 00:24:23.360 --> 00:24:24.820 What's holding people back? 00:24:25.360 --> 00:24:27.555 If you're open to it, try it. 00:24:27.715 --> 00:24:29.475 It's gonna make you a better human being. 00:24:29.475 --> 00:24:29.875 Absolutely. 00:24:29.875 --> 00:24:37.895 It's gonna make you a better Christian, a better follower of Christ because those listening skills open themselves up in every relationship. 00:24:38.435 --> 00:24:41.255 Our world is desperately in need of better listening. 00:24:41.395 --> 00:24:41.820 Yeah. 00:24:42.220 --> 00:24:56.205 And and the listening that moves also in a spiritual way and openness to the Holy Spirit that moves into prayer, a greater sense of our own interiority, a greater self knowledge, all of these things are going to benefit every aspect of someone's life. 00:24:56.365 --> 00:25:07.485 And as the programs develop, we've had several students who have found their way to, not necessarily giving spiritual direction, but taking the riches of this and taking it in one direction or another. 00:25:07.485 --> 00:25:07.985 Exactly. 00:25:08.045 --> 00:25:11.905 If I could put a sharper point on what you said, because I think it's so important. 00:25:13.270 --> 00:25:26.685 If you have an inclination, maybe I'm called to be a director or somebody said, you know, I I would strongly urge you to look at any of these schools and jump in. 00:25:26.925 --> 00:25:31.485 Because it doesn't you know, I don't you guys don't force anyone to be a director. 00:25:31.485 --> 00:25:31.985 Right? 00:25:32.045 --> 00:25:32.685 You don't do that? 00:25:32.685 --> 00:25:33.085 Okay. 00:25:33.085 --> 00:25:33.325 No. 00:25:33.325 --> 00:25:35.085 So you're not Yeah. 00:25:35.085 --> 00:25:35.485 Exactly. 00:25:35.485 --> 00:25:39.425 Just ex in the end, you graduate one of these programs. 00:25:40.510 --> 00:25:44.050 Your spiritual life is gonna be lit up quite significantly. 00:25:44.830 --> 00:25:48.610 And I would say, we need to be at the centers of grace. 00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:53.070 We need to meet Jesus, be changed by him, and change the world around you. 00:25:53.070 --> 00:25:55.010 That's how we know we've met him. 00:25:55.555 --> 00:25:57.415 So that happens in a lot of ways. 00:25:57.635 --> 00:25:58.295 You know? 00:25:58.835 --> 00:25:59.735 We write books. 00:26:00.035 --> 00:26:00.615 You know? 00:26:01.155 --> 00:26:02.435 You guys do formation. 00:26:02.435 --> 00:26:03.415 We all do formation. 00:26:03.475 --> 00:26:04.135 You know? 00:26:04.675 --> 00:26:12.830 It could be it could be the head of, you know, RCIA in your in your parish or, you know, director of religious education or whatever. 00:26:13.930 --> 00:26:20.670 When you know the principles of spiritual directing, you understand the progress of the soul, you'll be better at all of those things. 00:26:21.210 --> 00:26:22.910 You'll be better at being a human. 00:26:23.925 --> 00:26:24.245 Yeah. 00:26:24.245 --> 00:26:24.745 Exactly. 00:26:24.885 --> 00:26:25.205 Right? 00:26:25.205 --> 00:26:26.585 Human following Jesus. 00:26:26.885 --> 00:26:30.965 But, yeah, if you have the inclination, you really should jump in and and not be afraid. 00:26:30.965 --> 00:26:43.250 And and all of the schools, I think, are oriented to helping students to to the greatest possible success because we want to get as many directors out that are that are faithful and and and properly equipped. 00:26:43.250 --> 00:26:46.530 So, anyway, it I really appreciate you saying that. 00:26:46.530 --> 00:26:55.295 You know, and also say, you know, we're here at the Eucharist at Congress, and one of one of the themes they're talking about is the church needs to go from maintenance to mission. 00:26:56.555 --> 00:27:02.635 In other words, instead of just maintaining our our parishes, our institutions, may we really have to get out of mission. 00:27:02.635 --> 00:27:03.030 Yeah. 00:27:03.030 --> 00:27:04.310 And I think it goes back. 00:27:04.310 --> 00:27:10.410 The the, the second Vatican council calls us talks about the universal call to holiness. 00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:12.090 We're all called to be science. 00:27:12.710 --> 00:27:18.230 Laypeople, religious and priest, and priest and religious. 00:27:18.230 --> 00:27:18.470 Yeah. 00:27:18.470 --> 00:27:21.245 Well, you have a long you have a long wait. 00:27:21.245 --> 00:27:21.725 Good day. 00:27:21.725 --> 00:27:22.125 Yeah. 00:27:22.765 --> 00:27:30.525 But but with the and, pope Benedict, you know, once was talking about spiritual direction, he said, everyone should have a spiritual direction. 00:27:30.525 --> 00:27:31.025 Yep. 00:27:31.530 --> 00:27:38.990 And, when we think about, you know, the burdens on priests these days, I was just talking to a couple priests early parish priest. 00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:43.550 He's talking about in their diocese, how the number of priests is going down. 00:27:43.905 --> 00:27:45.685 Their responsibilities are increasing. 00:27:46.785 --> 00:27:48.785 They really don't have a lot of extra time. 00:27:48.785 --> 00:27:56.305 Now if we if we just heard confession as much as the church recommends, priests would be doing nothing else but hearing confessions. 00:27:56.305 --> 00:27:59.310 So every Catholic was going to frequent confession. 00:27:59.370 --> 00:27:59.850 Yeah. 00:27:59.850 --> 00:28:03.850 So I think it's a real opportunity here for laypeople to to consider. 00:28:03.850 --> 00:28:05.450 Is God really calling me to this? 00:28:05.450 --> 00:28:22.455 Because it's a great way to support the churches to help the church become more of a missionary church and helping people to, discover God's plan for their lives, to help them to discover, and grow in a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ. 00:28:22.455 --> 00:28:25.050 And that's what you know, you need guidance. 00:28:25.050 --> 00:28:26.730 We go to, life coaches. 00:28:26.730 --> 00:28:30.330 We go to, you know, personal trainers. 00:28:30.330 --> 00:28:31.310 We go to dietitians. 00:28:31.930 --> 00:28:32.170 Right. 00:28:32.170 --> 00:28:37.390 Why wouldn't we wanna have someone isn't the spiritual life as important as those things? 00:28:37.595 --> 00:28:37.915 Right? 00:28:37.915 --> 00:28:40.395 What do you want someone who has experience to do that? 00:28:40.395 --> 00:28:51.810 And and my experience as a priest, so many laypeople I've encountered are very gifted and have deep prayer lives, and also have a sense that they wanna help the church. 00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:52.290 Mhmm. 00:28:52.290 --> 00:29:02.210 And so, that's what really excites me about programs who are gonna train spiritual directors and actually are I think we I don't know. 00:29:02.210 --> 00:29:03.890 We'll hear I I think we share that viewpoint. 00:29:03.890 --> 00:29:04.210 Like, hey. 00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:13.975 We have to get all of us and Everyone involved, laypeople and, you know, of course, priests and religious can do it as well, but but they're just not gonna be able to do it all. 00:29:14.275 --> 00:29:14.515 Yeah. 00:29:14.515 --> 00:29:14.915 You know what? 00:29:14.915 --> 00:29:23.940 If if I could plug a book, the best book in print, in my opinion, on spiritual direction is written by father Boniface and and father Akland. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.800 Until I but the name slipped to my mind. 00:29:26.800 --> 00:29:29.440 Spiritual direction, a guide for sharing the father's love. 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:30.160 The father's love. 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:30.660 Yeah. 00:29:31.040 --> 00:29:31.440 That yeah. 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.980 We use it as one of our textbooks. 00:29:33.305 --> 00:29:33.465 Yeah. 00:29:33.465 --> 00:29:43.065 If you if you want if you're if you wonder about maybe digging deeper, pick that book up, and that'll help you a lot to understand Yeah. 00:29:43.225 --> 00:29:45.005 Spiritual direction's absolutely fantastic. 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:49.220 Well, thank you all for coming here, and thanks for this conversation. 00:29:49.840 --> 00:29:50.820 I've enjoyed it. 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:52.720 Sharing these gifts of the spirit. 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:53.760 God bless you all. 00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:54.320 Thank you. 00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:54.720 Thank you. 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:55.928 You're great being with you. 00:30:01.545 --> 00:30:02.045 Adrian.