Father Charles, do you wanna start us have a little prayer here for our conversation today?
Absolutely.
Name of the father and the son and the holy spirit.
Amen.
Heavenly father, we ask you to send your holy spirit to guide us in this conversation.
Give us insight to talk about this important topic of spiritual direction and how important it is for each one of us and all those we work with to guide souls to a deeper relationship with your son, Jesus Christ, and they seek with great fervor, and desire to do your will in all things.
So we ask you for your guidance and your holy spirit to be with us.
The name of our lord Jesus Christ, father of the Son, Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Well, we're excited to have today here, you know, a a few distinguished guests for a for a conversation on spiritual direction.
And, so father Charles is here.
Father Charles, wanna introduce yourself?
I'm father Charles Sikorsky.
I'm the president of Divine Mercy University, and proud leader of our spirit being a part of our spiritual direction course.
Dan, go ahead.
I'm the president and founder of the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation, And, we, of course, have graduate spiritual graduate studies in spiritual theology, and we do priestly formation for a 100 dioceses, around The US and then and internationally.
And then, of course, we have a spiritual direction program.
Also, families of your spiritual direction program and the one that father Boniface said at Saint Vincent.
So we're all really I think I think it's cool that we're all sitting here because we're we're in in the world, we'd be competing institutions.
But in in the kingdom, at least the way we all behave Mhmm.
Which is awesome, is we're here to help help.
We need as many spiritual directors as we can get.
Exactly.
Amen.
We need them from Saint Vincent's.
What is the program called there?
Yeah.
It's the Institute for Ministry Formation.
At Saint Vincent.
I should know that because we help part of our team helped set up your booth today.
But and then find mercy is a spiritual directing program, the Abbo Institute.
I mean, we need more directors.
They need more people who care for souls.
And so to me, the the more, the merrier as long as they're orthodox, and you guys are all orthodox, and it wasn't like that ten years ago.
Exactly.
I think that's why we came about.
Right?
It is.
Well, that's been our motivation is to go, okay.
We need to come against, you know, the forces that really want to, you know, syncretism or wanna wanna blend the faith with non Christian Eastern spirituality or an an excess of emphasis with secular psychology or marriage with secular psychology with Divine Mercy University has really been on the forefront of of properly getting those things in proper order.
Mhmm.
Right?
So, yeah, it's it's a great work with you guys.
Thank you, Dan.
Well, I'm Maria Brackett.
I'm the director of the spiritual direction certificate here at Divine Mercy University, spiritual director myself and just someone that's, always been passionate about helping people know the Lord better.
Father Boniface.
And Father Boniface Hicks.
I'm the director of the Institute for Ministry Formation and also the director of spiritual formation at Saint Vincent Seminary.
And, yeah, spiritual direction's been, life changing for me, and I fully agree with Dan about the need for more and and also the beauty of the variety.
I I always call it resisting the Irish potato famine, which resulted from having only one variety of potatoes.
So I'm happy for multiple spiritual direction programs, each with their own emphasis and nuances and and, opportunities in terms of in person and online and the different professors, and I think there's a beautiful diversity that's emerged in the in the church.
Really remarkably, I spiritual direction, I think, sixty years ago.
I mean, basically, even seminarians and religious weren't getting spiritual direction sixty years ago.
Right.
And now there's such an urge, I think, really welling up from the hearts of the faithful under the movement of the holy spirit.
There's a real desire to receive it and a real desire to be formed and to to to respond to that need.
So Yeah.
I think too, Divine Mercy University, you know, I mentioned this led the way in a in a authentic Catholic anthropology, you know, as a foundation.
I think you guys you guys have been out there.
How long have you been around?
We've been around twenty five years.
Twenty five years.
They've still cut the path, that I think has caused some of this interest Mhmm.
Of authentic Catholic formation in the realm of psychology.
And psychology's always got a kind of a close relationship with spiritual direction.
Mhmm.
And and Divine Mercy Universe, it's one of the reasons I trust your programs and and why we're we're happy.
Of course, Father Boniface teaches for our hard calling program, and Mhmm.
We know him well, but we know you guys well too.
But, fully orthodox, sound philosophy and theology, and, you know, it's just nothing but good for the church to have more institutions and especially working together.
And to follow-up, Dan, what you're saying is a great point.
You know, I think in many ways, for a while, at least in some in some places, try to reduce spiritual direction to psychology.
Right.
And as almost in psychology as a replacement for spiritual life and spiritual direction, and that's wrong.
It should be a compliment.
We start off by thinking how grace builds on nature.
And so stronger we can help human nature let, be spend God's grace in spiritual life as a much better platform, to work with.
We got a lot more to work with.
And so, it should be complimentary.
And, obviously, the spiritual life is superior to to the to the human, but the human needs to be healthy.
Yeah.
How is it going?
Yeah.
And we gotta get spiritual by often right in order to get healed psychologically.
Yeah.
Exactly.
They're so intertwined.
Yeah.
Or when you're blocked spiritually to dig into the psychology and see what's in the way.
I mean, they they should be complimentary.
So, brother, Ronnoffus, tell us I mean, I know some about your fervor, but not tons.
But it's a certificate.
Like, how do you guys do the training for spiritual directors?
Yeah.
So we're, accredited through Saint Vincent Seminary, and then we kind of run the program in more of that context.
So there are courses, credits.
So it's 18 credits, which you, can finish in two years.
It takes at least a year before you can enter into the practicum, which could be the second year.
So you could do much of it in a year, but then the practicum in the second year.
And, but also spreading it out in courses makes it possible to make it a little longer, a little bit shorter, a little bit more variety.
And then some people who, who have already done, in some cases, your programs, but might wanna draw some wisdom from ours can just take a course or two in a particular area.
We do have a a fairly deep psychological foundation.
My spiritual father and the coauthor of our book is a psychoanalyst of forty some years Oh, you're right.
And, father Thomas Ackland.
Yeah.
And and then I've also had a lot of, friendship with the folks at Souls and Hearts.
So Jerry Crete, he's, taught one of our courses in the spring.
So integrating some dimensions of parts work and internal family systems in a loose way, has been part of that.
And then, otherwise, just sort of the riches of Saint Vincent Seminary and the kinda graduate all of our professors are, doctors in various places, various areas of, of theology.
So some of that richness as well.
So one of my one of the faculty members, in the spiritual director certificate is a counselor from a graduate from Divine Mercy University, but she works with with doctor Peter.
She runs one of the groups for the community of resilient Catholics.
And, doctor Jerry helped us to design our one of our family systems courses at the university.
So there's a lot of overlapping Oh, yeah.
People, which is great.
You know?
And I I think that having these experts that are dedicated, whether in theology or in the human sciences, it just brings the richness of the whole Catholic tradition to our students.
I totally agree.
Which is so important, you know, because, there's been times in history that we've almost felt like that's been hijacked a little bit by someone else.
But but really when and I'm sure you all have the same experience.
When the students actually get into these studies and they start experiencing just what riches this area is and how it helps them.
I'm sure you both have the same experience in your program that we have in ours.
That that that students say, the first thing that this did was help me Yeah.
Reconnect on a deeper level with the Lord and grow in my own relationship with him.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It it's it's that's one of the most beautiful aspects of watching students in the program is having them go through their own spiritual transformation by you know, they're motivated usually to help other people.
Yeah.
And then they get in and and often don't realize how much they don't know.
And and sometimes they know a lot, but we're filling in all the gaps.
But, also, probably similarly, because we're all kind of cut out of a very similar essential cloth, is we want everyone to have an encounter with Jesus.
Mhmm.
We want everyone to know him at a deeper way and to know the church in a deeper transformative way.
And so as we help them with that, I think what we're doing was producing spiritual directors that are not just knowledgeable Mhmm.
But they're also transformed Absolutely.
By a deeper encounter with the Lord, with the saints, with the sacraments, with all the great glory that is the Catholic church.
Yeah.
So it's it's it's way different than, you know, other models that are just purely, as you said, father, psychological or in psychological from a secular standpoint.
Mhmm.
But yeah.
I mean, that's my favorite part of being involved, and I'm not anywhere near as qualified as anyone I'm sitting next to.
But I teach some introductory courses, and my favorite part of being involved with those things is just watching that transformation happen when people move deeper in relationship with God.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And Yeah.
Exactly.
And we're it's such a blessing in in terms of spiritual direction.
We tend to be getting students, and I know we have a requirement that they've been in spiritual direction for a year.
And so it's people who are already very serious about their own relationship with the Lord, but then it just opens up a whole other dimension as they see how they could be taking advantage of spiritual direction more deeply, how they could be praying more deeply, how they could really, then also start to minister to others and benefit from when you start to spend time in the hearts of other people, it helps to open up your own heart Totally.
And, and deepen your own relationship with the Lord.
So Well, it's because the the encounter with another is an encounter with Jesus.
Yes, sir.
Right?
But when you see Jesus in the other and you're and I one of my favorite parts of, I think, this whole world of Catholic authentic Catholic spiritual direction is this mutual trans I know it.
How would you call it?
Vulnerability Mhmm.
That we can have with people who are seeking the Lord.
That mutual vulnerability, that walking together with Jesus is so much more powerful than, you know, a kind of model that creates the separation.
Like, you're the expert, and you're here to be fixed.
That doesn't work.
Right.
We're here to walk together deeper and with Lord.
Whenever I pray with a direct deed, I'm always at I pray in we, not for them.
I pray for us.
Yeah.
So that we could hear the will of God and then have the courage to follow.
So it's not about fixing other people.
It's not about controlling other people.
It's about walking together deeper in relationship with him.
Oh, you know?
Sorry for the energy.
I just love No.
That's great.
I love I love what you guys are doing.
You know, it's both in in the formation of the students, but also just in the execution of doing spiritual directions without any better word.
Just taking delight in admiring the beautiful things that god does inside of other souls is so enriching for your own soul as a director Mhmm.
Or as a priest in confession, you just you see your faith is strengthened.
Your your your, you know, your your relationship with grace grows by doing it and get to see god.
You get to see god way at work, and you see his action.
And, you know Brings you into prayer.
That's for sure.
Yeah.
It's one of the one of the I think one of the one of the greatest ways to to grow in your own your own spiritual life.
You know what?
I out of curiosity to ask you, if you don't mind.
No.
Go ahead.
What do you think are the greatest barriers to people who might have a call to spiritual direction that we could maybe dispel?
So I would because I would love for our conversation to result in a 100 more, you know, people Yeah.
Exactly.
Right?
Program.
So what do you what have you seen as the greatest barrier?
You you touched on it, just a moment ago in terms of this idea that the spear spiritual director is supposed to have all the answers as if they sort of sit somewhere, issuing all of the wisdom from, I don't know, you know, the the swami up on the mountain levitating somehow.
Now, again, I I don't think somebody should give spiritual direction unless they're receiving it, and hopefully, they're receiving it in a way that they know that's not true.
Yeah.
But I would just emphasize that fact.
It's really about a deepening relationship in Christ with someone rather than somebody who has the answers and is supposed to give all of the answers to someone else.
Oh, very good.
Very good.
Yeah.
And I kind of concur with that because one of the experiences that our students have in the first residency, we have, well, we have two courses and then they come on campus.
So everything they do before that time is online through Zoom and everything like that.
So a lot of virtual, work.
But then after that, they come on campus for their first residency.
And that first residency, we just have to continually help them to be in contact with the Lord because what they are hearing inside of them is, I don't think I can do it.
Yeah.
I don't know if I can do this.
Right.
I'll you know, who do who do I think that I am Right.
To be doing this?
Really.
And so it's just, you know, we we always have a prayer time on our, you know, our full morning that we dedicate to retreat when they're on campus.
And that's one of the things that they have to walk through and just be strengthened and get and and I you know, the Lord shows up again and again in those moments for them and reassures them in in a way that I could never do, you know, because they're so, you know, such individuals in their own history.
And he just shows up and and they come to me and they say, oh, yeah.
You said this or I saw this or I was strengthened in this way, and and we're gonna move forward.
Yeah.
It reminds me of, a say father Bonifold, both of your answer.
I don't have a unique answer, but, the Saint John of the Cross warns, he says some who think they're very far along the way are not at all, and some who think they're not at all in the way are very far along.
And I I would encourage people who are who are of the ladder, you know, who don't think much of themselves.
See, he It it that's probably a very good basis, that humility.
Because I worry more about people who come to school thinking, well, I'm here to get the degree or the certificate so that I can fix people.
And those are the most dangerous.
Exactly.
Right?
Those are the most dangerous.
At Heart of Christ, you know, it it probably the the biggest concern in terms of formation outside of spiritual theology and moral theology and all of different things we teach is is trying to undo that instinct because god and this goes back to your point.
God is the one who shows up and helps us.
I don't I can't say how many times I've been giving direction, and I'm thinking I have no I have nowhere to go, Lord.
You're gonna have to show me this doesn't feel right, you know, where the where the directee is going in terms of what they think they need or whatever.
And then he shows up and he says it's that way.
You speak it.
The resonance occurs in the soul because God's moving and speaking to all of you.
And then suddenly, everything opens up and you're heading down the path.
But it it's and we're there to share.
We're not the like, you know, back to your point, father Bonavis, we're not the masters on the mountain.
We're the servant.
We're washing their feet.
We're the ones, you know, doing the best we can to listen and pray as we're speaking, but but not as the masters, but as a servant.
And I think we're all even in the realm of psychology, I don't know how you how you deal with that thing.
Look right.
It's the same thing.
Yeah.
Well, a lot of things are the same way.
I I one one thing that's always stuck in my mind, I have several seminaries prior to ordination.
They've been in the seminary several years, done very well, and they get close to ordination.
It's like, I just don't feel worthy.
Right.
And, maybe that's the final sign of confirmation of that vote.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Because Yeah.
As you know, as you said, Dan, I mean, that that has to be a foundational, you know, and and as being able to say, yeah.
You're right.
You're not qualified.
Right.
None of us are qualified.
But it's god who works through us.
And, usually, there's a different reason.
Someone might have suggested that you be your own spiritual director or or someone who who knows you well.
Well, they they see the qualities.
And, so I I do think that it that can be a good sign.
We don't feel like you're you're capable of doing it.
And as you psychology is very similar.
Right?
If you think you have all the answers, you probably shouldn't be, talking to people.
Come to Come to learn.
Right?
Because you'll learn and you don't.
We we Glad we can try to do formation.
That's right.
Well, yeah.
See if you can can get it all.
Guys that.
You're right.
Well, we always ask for some type of a letter, you know, of recommendation from their own spiritual director who are, you know, very discreet, you know Sure.
Because it is a confidential relationship.
But just to kinda say, you know, what do you think?
Do you think this relationship.
But just to kinda say, you know, what do you think?
Do you think this person would make a good spiritual director?
Or you think this step is something that they should be, you know, to kinda hear from them and maybe their parish priest or someone that knows the person.
And, we always say, you know, especially when I'm interviewing people to come into the program, have people been coming up to you and asking you advice about things in your spirit in their spiritual life?
That's a pretty good sign.
Yeah.
That's right.
You know, I'm hearing I'm learn you know, I'm learning.
One of our employees is one of your students, of course, you know Claire at the school, at Spirit Stretching School.
But in terms of some of the differences for people to know in terms of where they are in life and what program Is Are you guys mostly online, father Boniface?
Yeah.
We have we have two courses that can be done in person Okay.
Where the entire program can be done online.
And what I'm hearing at Vine Mercy is you're more, in I say, like, we're 80% online Okay.
Because they do all the course work online, but once a year, the program's two years long.
So once a year, they have to come in for a residence.
Okay.
And then we're kind of in between that.
The heart of crisis in between.
So depending on what you can or can't do Yeah.
Exactly.
Each school has an emphasis that'll help with your state in life or, you know, whatever it is.
Then another thing that people often ask me is, like, what what spirituality do you have Oh, yeah.
In your so that that might also be a difference.
You know, I always tell them, we just we introduce you to the greats of the the Catholic tradition, and you that's what you're reading.
We don't really imprint it with a certain spirituality because the university doesn't really have a spirituality.
Right?
But just kind of immerse them in the tradition.
Right?
And, so that's and and, of course, we study Carmelite.
We study Saint John of the Cross.
We study, Saint Benedict's rural.
We you know, there's different texts, of course, the Jesuits, the, Saint Ignatius, right, especially when we're in that theme of discernment.
But so we introduced them, but it's not like there's a certain spirituality that we're directed to.
I don't know, for you guys.
Do you feel like yours is, like, at the heart Benedictine, or how is No.
I I've really come around.
I think the really, the monastic tradition, which is the foundation of spiritual direction, the idea and I I don't even like the word direction.
Why I I prefer spiritual father, spiritual mother, because I think that's the relationship of total self disclosure and sort of mutual commitment that's there that develops over a long period of time in a in a formative way.
So I we also share Carmelite things and Jesuit things, and there's a lot of of wisdom in some different places.
I'm often using different paradigms to get to the fastest path towards what I'm seeking in a particular area.
But but I would say the the basic modality from that sort of vulnerability sharing of interiority, long term commitment, more formative, tradition would be would be a more monastic or Benedictine flavor.
Carmelite spirituality primarily.
But as you know, the school as a whole, our desire is to unveil the riches of all.
You know, I'd love to have, you know, deeper in Benedictine and deeper in in Dominican and all of that.
But in the school, in in heart of Christ, it's Carmelite definitely in the realm of prayer and understanding the progress of the soul.
And then Ignatian now John of the Cross is deeper water than Ignatius on discernment.
Yeah.
But he's way harder to get to.
He's way harder to organize.
Ignatius is so so straight because he's he's practical.
Yeah.
So we use Ignatius, discernment of wisdom, discernment of spirits.
But that's another beauty about all the diff you know, what we're doing.
It's all orthodox, but it it reflects different facets of the diamond of the church, which I which I love.
So folks who are looking for different emphasis, if you're if you're more in the Benedictine tradition.
But Men Yeah.
I would say, though, any of the schools but there's a tremendous overlap.
Yeah.
What we're talking about is 90% overlap with a little Yeah.
Sort of flavoring, coloring.
Yeah.
And exactly.
And since we are a graduate school of psychology and counseling, it's, you know, we definitely help the students to understand the difference between that and spiritual direction and what spiritual direction consists of and everything like that.
But we do have the opportunity to, you know, bring in just a a a course on human development and how human relationships are formed.
You know?
We take human development.
We don't just see it by itself.
We see it from the lens of human relationships.
Kind of, you know, father Boniface, you had mentioned earlier about that, about relationships.
And we have the students kind of look at how relationships have developed over their own life.
And so that they, as a spiritual director, and I'm sure you do it, just have an awareness of what they bring as human beings into that relationship.
You know?
That maybe some of the movements that are gonna be happening in them too.
So that that's kind of how we the human sciences at the universities get interwoven.
And also just, some of the skills, just learning the listening, how to sit with someone, how to, how to be aware of your own interior noise so that you can take stock of that and bring it to your own spiritual direction prayer as you're sitting with someone, that's important to you.
And and those are the some of the elements that would maybe come back to Dan's question again.
What's holding people back?
If you're open to it, try it.
It's gonna make you a better human being.
Absolutely.
It's gonna make you a better Christian, a better follower of Christ because those listening skills open themselves up in every relationship.
Our world is desperately in need of better listening.
Yeah.
And and the listening that moves also in a spiritual way and openness to the Holy Spirit that moves into prayer, a greater sense of our own interiority, a greater self knowledge, all of these things are going to benefit every aspect of someone's life.
And as the programs develop, we've had several students who have found their way to, not necessarily giving spiritual direction, but taking the riches of this and taking it in one direction or another.
Exactly.
If I could put a sharper point on what you said, because I think it's so important.
If you have an inclination, maybe I'm called to be a director or somebody said, you know, I I would strongly urge you to look at any of these schools and jump in.
Because it doesn't you know, I don't you guys don't force anyone to be a director.
Right?
You don't do that?
Okay.
No.
So you're not Yeah.
Exactly.
Just ex in the end, you graduate one of these programs.
Your spiritual life is gonna be lit up quite significantly.
And I would say, we need to be at the centers of grace.
We need to meet Jesus, be changed by him, and change the world around you.
That's how we know we've met him.
So that happens in a lot of ways.
You know?
We write books.
You know?
You guys do formation.
We all do formation.
You know?
It could be it could be the head of, you know, RCIA in your in your parish or, you know, director of religious education or whatever.
When you know the principles of spiritual directing, you understand the progress of the soul, you'll be better at all of those things.
You'll be better at being a human.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Right?
Human following Jesus.
But, yeah, if you have the inclination, you really should jump in and and not be afraid.
And and all of the schools, I think, are oriented to helping students to to the greatest possible success because we want to get as many directors out that are that are faithful and and and properly equipped.
So, anyway, it I really appreciate you saying that.
You know, and also say, you know, we're here at the Eucharist at Congress, and one of one of the themes they're talking about is the church needs to go from maintenance to mission.
In other words, instead of just maintaining our our parishes, our institutions, may we really have to get out of mission.
Yeah.
And I think it goes back.
The the, the second Vatican council calls us talks about the universal call to holiness.
We're all called to be science.
Laypeople, religious and priest, and priest and religious.
Yeah.
Well, you have a long you have a long wait.
Good day.
Yeah.
But but with the and, pope Benedict, you know, once was talking about spiritual direction, he said, everyone should have a spiritual direction.
Yep.
And, when we think about, you know, the burdens on priests these days, I was just talking to a couple priests early parish priest.
He's talking about in their diocese, how the number of priests is going down.
Their responsibilities are increasing.
They really don't have a lot of extra time.
Now if we if we just heard confession as much as the church recommends, priests would be doing nothing else but hearing confessions.
So every Catholic was going to frequent confession.
Yeah.
So I think it's a real opportunity here for laypeople to to consider.
Is God really calling me to this?
Because it's a great way to support the churches to help the church become more of a missionary church and helping people to, discover God's plan for their lives, to help them to discover, and grow in a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ.
And that's what you know, you need guidance.
We go to, life coaches.
We go to, you know, personal trainers.
We go to dietitians.
Right.
Why wouldn't we wanna have someone isn't the spiritual life as important as those things?
Right?
What do you want someone who has experience to do that?
And and my experience as a priest, so many laypeople I've encountered are very gifted and have deep prayer lives, and also have a sense that they wanna help the church.
Mhmm.
And so, that's what really excites me about programs who are gonna train spiritual directors and actually are I think we I don't know.
We'll hear I I think we share that viewpoint.
Like, hey.
We have to get all of us and Everyone involved, laypeople and, you know, of course, priests and religious can do it as well, but but they're just not gonna be able to do it all.
Yeah.
You know what?
If if I could plug a book, the best book in print, in my opinion, on spiritual direction is written by father Boniface and and father Akland.
Until I but the name slipped to my mind.
Spiritual direction, a guide for sharing the father's love.
The father's love.
Yeah.
That yeah.
We use it as one of our textbooks.
Yeah.
If you if you want if you're if you wonder about maybe digging deeper, pick that book up, and that'll help you a lot to understand Yeah.
Spiritual direction's absolutely fantastic.
Well, thank you all for coming here, and thanks for this conversation.
I've enjoyed it.
Sharing these gifts of the spirit.
God bless you all.
Thank you.
You're great being with you.
Adrian.