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Welcome, everyone.

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My name is doctor Steven Grundman.

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I teach integrative studies in our doctorate in psychology program.

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I'll be your emcee tonight.

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First, just a few brief words about our question and answer period.

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As questions occur to you during the lecture, please feel free to write them in the Zoom chat box or in the Zoom q and a function, which you'll find in your control bar.

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We'll take a brief, break just after the lecture, just a a a moment or two really, and then we'll jump right into the to your to your questions after, doctor Enright finishes.

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And so, please allow me to introduce the Newman lecture series itself.

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This is held under the sponsorship of Divine Mercy University, and, it is in its twenty third year.

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As is our tradition, this series aims at building a body of learned discussion that is Catholic both in its breadth of research and in its dialogue with contemporary Catholic Christian thought.

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And now I invite our president, father Charles Sikorsky, to open us in prayer.

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Father Charles.

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Well, thank you, doctor Grundmann.

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And let's begin with a prayer in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit.

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Amen.

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Heavenly father, we approach you during this time of Lent, time of repentance, time to reflect on our own sins and failures.

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But most of all, the power of your grace, the power of your forgiveness, the power of the reconciliation that we get from turning to you with humility, turning to you, as our father who loves us and wants us to be very close, to you.

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We thank you for this opportunity this evening to learn more about the power of forgiveness, to learn more in how we can forgive others and how by doing so helps us to grow as a as as human beings, but more so as children your children, children of God, and how through the virtue of forgiveness, we become transformed.

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We become stronger.

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We become more and more, most of all, like you and like your son, our lord Jesus Christ, who from the cross forgave those who were persecuting him, those who were taking his life.

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And so as we prepare, we pray for our presenter tonight that you will guide him and help us to grasp more and more of your divine wisdom, your divine presence, and learn more and more how we can better serve you, better serve all our souls with whom we have contact, those who've been entrusted to us in a special way to be influenced so we can bring them more and more to your son, our lord Jesus Christ.

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We thank you for this evening.

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We thank you for this time, and we ask for your blessing and for the Holy Spirit to guide us in this evening.

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In the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit.

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Amen.

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Amen.

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Thank you, father Charles.

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Now please welcome, doctor Paul Vitz who will introduce our speaker for the evening.

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Doctor Vitz.

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Thank you.

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It's a pleasure to introduce, doctor Enright.

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He's been a a friend of mine for a long time.

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I've been aware of his importance for a long time, and so now I get the honor to be able to read some of the important things that, in fact, have occurred in his life as a result of his work on forgiveness.

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Doctor.

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Robert Enright holds the Aristotelian Professorship in Forgiveness Science within the Department of Educational Psychology at the University of Wisconsin in Madison.

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He is a licensed psychologist and founder of the International Forgiveness Institute, a nonprofit organization dedicated to disseminating knowledge about forgiveness and community renewal through forgiveness.

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He is the first to publish a scientific study on the topic of person to person forgiveness in 1989.

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He is the first to publish research on forgiveness therapy in 1993 as he developed the 20 step process model of forgiving.

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He has been called the forgiveness trailblazer by Time magazine.

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Doctor Enright is the author or editor of eight books and over 190 publications centered on social development and above all, the psychology of forgiveness.

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His latest endeavors include forgiveness education for students in various world communities, for example, Israel, Monrovia, Northern Ireland, The Philippines, and Taiwan, and forgiveness therapy with those in correctional institutions, that is with prisoners and criminals.

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His colleague, Richard Fitzgibbons, and he received the third edition of the Expanded Reason Award through the University of Francisco de Vittoria, Madrid, Spain, in collaboration with the Joseph Ratzinger Benedict the sixteenth Foundation, which is in Rome, For his innovative research on forgiveness, and he received in 2022 what the American Psychological Association calls psychology's highest award, the APF, that is the American Psychological Foundation's Gold Medal Award for Impact in Psychology.

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This is all wonderful, and Doctor.

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Enright has been the pioneer in getting all this done.

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Thank you.

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Alright.

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Doctor Enright, please, please begin your presentation.

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Thank you.

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Well, thank you very much, doctor Vitz.

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I should mention he has won the fourth annual expanded reason award for his wonderful work.

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So thank you to you and to Divine Mercy University for your important work.

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Tonight, I wanna talk with you with this long title of how injustices can fracture the personhood of the victim and how forgiveness restores that personhood and psychological health.

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And in the next slide, you will see our objectives for this evening.

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And so if we could turn to the next slide, you'll see that first of all, we're gonna talk about what I call unhealthy anger or resentment that builds up, is intensive, and stays with a person for a long time.

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And the kind of anger I'm talking about that's born out of injustice can actually compromise mental and physical health.

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We're gonna talk about that.

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And if forgiveness toward those who acted unjustly can actually reduce or eliminate that unhealthy anger that abides for a long time, it is intensive.

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And if it can restore psychological integrity, then you and I together really must examine what forgiveness is and is not so we don't misunderstand what this topic of forgiveness is.

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Quite frankly, when I give talks like this, most people don't really understand what forgiveness is.

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We use the term, but we haven't gone into the subtlety of it.

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We will do that.

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We'll ask what are the benefits that occur when people engage in forgiving, and then how do we go about actually forgiving others?

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What's the pathway of forgiving?

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And then how does it actually restore our humanity?

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That's the title of the talk, and I wanna talk about that.

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And then I wanna share with you a Catholic perspective on what forgive us forgiveness is and how that Catholic perspective can actually restore the humanity of persons.

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So in the next slide, I ask you an important question.

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What is the difference between healthy and unhealthy anger?

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Let's take a look at that in this next slide.

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There's been a review of the literature and a meta analysis that we'll see in this next slide of 24 studies, 24 of them.

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And here's what the authors conclude.

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I'm quoting, we found that irritability, that's that large amount of anger that abides in the heart for a long time, forms a distinct dimension with substantial stability across time and that it is specifically associated with what?

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With depression and anxiety in longitudinal studies.

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So that's enough to get our attention.

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Let's take a look at the next slide, and we're gonna continue this theme of unhealthy anger.

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Some researchers, you can see there, Thomas et al, have found that extremely low anger scores, in other words, anger that's suppressed or repressed, or to use a colloquial term, stuffed within the heart of a person, actually can be connected with, as you see in that quote, the development of cancer.

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And, also, it's a factor in the progression after diagnosis.

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So we've got these two slides, and they're both saying this large amount of anger that abides in you can be unhealthy for you.

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And let's take a look at one more slide and just to make the point here.

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And then this next one we see that anger studies show, can actually impact our immune system.

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So if we stay too angry too long, we are more susceptible to colds, flu's infections, asthma, skin disease, and their flare up, and asthma as compared to people who are not chronically angry.

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Deep abiding anger, when treated unjustly by others, can be harmful to you.

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The next slide, we can see kind of the beginning of this talk now.

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It seems to be the case when I look at the literature that when there is un this kind of unhealthy anger I'm not talking about short term anger where someone disrespects you and you have a little bit of anger.

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That's good because it shows you know you're a person who need should be treated with respect.

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But when it starts taking hold within you and it doesn't let go and it doesn't know how to leave, where anger becomes the unwelcomed guest in the human heart, look at these bullet points here.

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Here's what I tend to see.

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People tend to say, I don't like myself when you're treated in a very unjust way by others.

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People say, I don't have worth as a person.

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You don't have worth as a person because people have treated you badly.

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Sadly, that's a conclusion people reach.

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There's oftentimes a breakdown in trust in relationships where if a person is hurt by person a, that person who's hurt says I cannot trust person b, c, or d and cannot enter into healthy relationships anymore.

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So it can harm future relationships.

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And what it can do is help a person in a bad way develop a victim mentality, a victim identity.

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Your identity can be that of someone victimized, always victimized, and that's who you are predominantly.

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And it can also end up with a development of a norm that it's alright to express anger in inappropriate ways, passing that on to others, which means a breakdown in community.

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And so is there a cure for unhealthy anger?

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I asked that in the next slide.

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Let's take a look at that question.

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Is there a cure for unhealthy anger, the kind that builds up in your heart, is the unwelcome guest, and doesn't know how to leave?

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Here's an answer to that in the next slide with my friend and colleague, doctor Richard Fitzgibbons, with whom I have written the book Forgiveness Therapy.

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He provided a lot of the very rich case study material in his psychiatric practice, and I provided the egghead professor stuff with my research on forgiveness.

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And we find that the practice of forgiveness when you're treated very deeply unfairly by others can actually reduce or even eliminate that unhealthy anger.

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Some call it resentment.

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Some call it irritability.

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And can deal with and help restore self esteem and reduce anxiety and depression and establish a certain sense of cooperation, not not necessarily with the one with whom you've had problems, although that's a goal.

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The other has to cooperate for that to happen, but it can also lead to greater cooperation with others who weren't part of the original injustice.

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So forgiveness is so important.

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Let's ask the question in the next slide.

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What do we mean by forgiveness?

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And we have some answers in the next four slides.

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In the next slide, I make the point that forgiveness is a choice.

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It's your choice.

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In other words and what I really like about forgiveness is there's no law anywhere in the world, in any society, that says you must forgive.

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And if you don't forgive, you're gonna get a ticket.

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If you don't forgive, we'll arrest you.

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No.

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Forgiveness is always your choice to do as you wish, when you wish, and with whom.

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And I think that gives you a freedom to go ahead and forgive or not.

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And the next slide we see, I learned this one from Aristotle.

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As doctor Vitz said, I hold the Aristotelian professorship because of my buddy, Aristotle, from a little while ago, the March.

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And I lean on Aristotle for my learning, for my knowledge of what forgiveness is.

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And he taught me that forgiveness is a moral virtue.

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A moral virtue, according to the catechism of the Catholic church, is a sign of goodness, motivated, willed with feelings and thinking directed toward others for their good.

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And if forgiveness is something that is moving toward others for goodness, then it's a moral virtue as is justice or kindness or patience or love.

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And we see in the next slide another thing why I like forgiveness.

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It cuts across many different philosophies and world religions.

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Forgiveness is seen as something positive in the Hebrew culture with Joseph forgiving his half brothers.

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Certainly, in Christianity, as an example, the prodigal son returning home and being embraced by his father.

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You see the positives in Buddhism.

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Even though there is not a word for forgiveness, there are stories that show what they call loving kindness or compassion for those who are not kind to you and in Hinduism.

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And even in the idea of humanism, there's the idea that at least there's the natural virtue of forgiveness, not necessarily the theological virtue where you need god's grace, where you can be good to others if you choose to do so.

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And so forgiveness cuts across many different world views and religions that have withstood the test of time.

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And it's it's positive in all of these I've just mentioned.

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So with that in mind, let's turn to the next slide where I am going to attempt a definition of forgiveness that I definitely think would be acceptable to people in a lot of different world views, a lot of different religions.

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So if we could turn to that next slide, you'll see that we have, a definition of forgiveness that encompasses three different points.

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And so could we turn to that next slide, please?

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Are we frozen?

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Oh, there we go.

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Okay.

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Very good.

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The definition of forgiveness can encompass three different points that would be fundamentally agreed upon by many of the world religions.

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First of all, we've been treated, unjustly by another person or persons.

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We strive to get rid of something negative, which is that resentment or that ill will that's persistent.

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So we get rid of the negative.

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And as the third bullet point, we strive as best we can.

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Here's where the notion of the moral virtue comes in.

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We strive to offer goodness of some kind to the one or the ones who have heard us.

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And this goodness can take the form, for example, of kindness or respect or generosity or even on its highest level, moral love or what the Greeks call agape, a g a p e.

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And that's the highest form of love, and you also see that in the New Testament where the idea of forgiveness as suffering for the other, for the good of the other.

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But that doesn't mean we all hit the highest target when we forgive.

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Don't think that unless you have this loving service to others, even when it's painful to do so, you're not forgiving.

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Because remember, if you're striving to get rid of the built up anger toward the other, you are forgiving.

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But the third bullet point shows us the highest level, and agape love is on the highest level of what forgiveness is.

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So with that in mind, let's turn to the next slide.

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What forgiveness is not?

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Forgiveness is not making excuses for the other and say, oh, I'm gonna forgive you because you didn't really mean it.

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Oh, well, sorry.

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Sometimes people really do mean to hurt us, and we don't make excuses.

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And what we say is what happened was unfair is unfair and will always be unfair.

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We don't excuse it.

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We don't forget.

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I know we use the term forgive and forget, but we remember in new ways.

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You don't remember just blood out from memory trauma against you.

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Take a physical trauma.

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For example, if you broke your leg when you were 10 years old, you can remember it, but in new ways without all that pain and fear that you might have had as a 10 year old.

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So you don't forget.

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You forgive and remember in new ways.

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And this next point is very important because equating forgiveness with reconciliation gives forgiveness a bad name.

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It gives it a black eye.

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Forgiveness is a moral virtue of one person deciding, being motivated, and willing goodness toward another.

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Reconciliation in contrast is not a moral virtue.

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It's a negotiation strategy between two or more people coming together again in mutual trust.

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So you can forgive but not reconcile if the other keeps hitting you over the head with a frying pan, and you keep saying stop that, and they say, no.

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I'm having fun with that.

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You can forgive and get out of the way and watch your back and not reconcile.

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And another thing that gives forgiveness a black eye is people think in either or terms.

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Either you forgive or seek justice, but not both.

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No.

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No.

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Aristotle taught me that you don't practice moral virtues in isolation from other moral virtues.

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Forgiveness and justice grow up together.

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So you can forgive a person for hitting you over the head with a frying pan and ask the person to stop.

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So you are forgiving.

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And what's that?

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Being good to the person who's not good to you, getting rid of the resentment when you have that big knot on your head, and now with justice seeking, get the person to put down the frying pan.

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So I made a lot of claims about forgiveness.

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And now when we turn to the next slide, I have an important question for all of you.

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What is the evidence from randomized experimental and control group clinical trials that forgiveness actually improves the well-being of the one who forgives.

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I have five bullet points in the next slide, and I'll just go through these briefly because each of these is a study we have done where we walk people through this process model of forgiveness that we'll go through next.

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And here are the here's the evidence.

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First of all, Suzanne Friedman and I worked with incest survivors.

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That's one of the most horrendous injustices known to humankind because a father or a father figure who is supposed to protect violates.

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It's much crueler.

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It's a much deeper wound than if someone robs you on the street and you've never seen that person before.

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That person still shouldn't do that, but that person is not in the role of the protective father.

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With incest, she is violated by the father or father figure who's supposed to protect.

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And every one of the incest survivors, 12 of them, who came into our study, said they wouldn't forget.

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They were very kind to Suzanne Friedman and said, I'm gonna be the one who's going to mess up your study because I'm not gonna forgive the father or father figure.

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Suzanne and her kindness had come in anyway.

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She worked one on one with six incest survivors once a week for an hour for fourteen months, 54 sessions.

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That's how long it can take to forgive sometimes, everybody.

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You don't just turn on a light bulb and say, oh, that's my forgiving light.

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I've forgiven and shut off the light and go out and play.

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No.

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No.

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Forgiveness is walking a path.

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It's growing in the moral virtue, and that's what these courageous women did.

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And at the end of fourteen months, those who walked the forgiveness path, those six of them, not only forgave, they all forgave, they came to us with clinical depression, and they all ended up nondepressed.

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They didn't just improve in depression.

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The depression left.

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Their anxiety went down.

00:24:42.425 --> 00:24:44.025
Their hope for the future went up.

00:24:44.025 --> 00:24:45.965
And you know who they ended up liking?

00:24:46.745 --> 00:24:47.245
Themselves.

00:24:48.900 --> 00:24:58.600
Because you see, you can be so cruelly treated by others that you end up believing the lie, and you end up not liking yourself.

00:24:59.620 --> 00:25:01.480
Their self esteem was restored.

00:25:01.540 --> 00:25:06.795
But what about those in the control group who didn't have forgiveness therapy for over a year?

00:25:07.735 --> 00:25:15.115
They could still seek treatment wherever they wished, and they did, but they still, at the end of that time, were still clinically depressed.

00:25:16.060 --> 00:25:20.560
Suzanne Friedman then brought them through the forgiveness program, and you know what happened?

00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:25.120
They forgave and went to nondepressed status.

00:25:25.660 --> 00:25:27.360
They started liking themselves.

00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:30.320
All 12 got their lives back.

00:25:30.775 --> 00:25:42.155
And the first group that after that first fourteen months did not have forgiveness therapy anymore for the next fourteen months, they were still non depressed.

00:25:42.870 --> 00:25:44.090
It stayed with them.

00:25:45.750 --> 00:25:51.050
Gail Reed and I did a study of divorced emotionally abused women with similar results.

00:25:51.830 --> 00:25:58.010
Decreased anxiety and depression, post traumatic stress disorder symptoms went down.

00:25:58.505 --> 00:26:00.605
And who did they end up liking everybody?

00:26:01.705 --> 00:26:02.205
Themselves.

00:26:03.865 --> 00:26:11.325
They ended up first believing the lie, you see, and they stopped believing the lie that they were worthless.

00:26:12.950 --> 00:26:17.130
They ended up reconstituting a large part of their humanity.

00:26:18.310 --> 00:26:24.490
Third bullet point, we worked with cardiac patients, all men, on a cardiac unit of a hospital.

00:26:25.765 --> 00:26:37.465
And all of them had, of course, heart compromise where when they told their story of injustice against them, the arteries of the heart narrowed, so they had less blood flow through the heart.

00:26:38.020 --> 00:26:43.240
After 10 sessions, the experimental group forgave people who hurt them deeply.

00:26:43.780 --> 00:26:57.135
And when we hooked them up to the heart monitors again and they retold their story, after a ten week follow-up, it took ten weeks after the therapy ended for the physical improvements to occur.

00:26:57.195 --> 00:27:00.095
When they told their story of deep hurt, you know what happened?

00:27:00.715 --> 00:27:02.175
Their arteries stayed open.

00:27:03.195 --> 00:27:07.855
What about the control group who had heart health as usual in a hospital setting?

00:27:08.870 --> 00:27:11.450
Their arteries still would shrink down.

00:27:11.510 --> 00:27:13.850
They had less blood flow through the heart still.

00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:24.935
Doctor Douglas Russell, the physician who oversaw this study said, we helped the men to avoid chest pains and sudden death.

00:27:25.395 --> 00:27:35.975
It's the first study ever published showing a cause and effect relationship between learning to forgive and the improvement in a major organ of the body.

00:27:36.035 --> 00:27:37.175
Think about that.

00:27:37.850 --> 00:27:45.790
Forgiving improved the physical, monitoring of the heart.

00:27:46.570 --> 00:27:53.945
I find that rather extraordinary, actually, especially when we split the mind body in modern medicine.

00:27:54.485 --> 00:27:57.145
Well, we put those two together, and it worked.

00:27:57.285 --> 00:27:59.145
And what led the day here?

00:27:59.525 --> 00:28:00.025
Forgiving.

00:28:02.005 --> 00:28:09.490
Fourth of five bullet points, we worked with terminally ill cancer patients only four weeks because they were sadly dying.

00:28:09.950 --> 00:28:11.470
They didn't have a lot of energy.

00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:13.810
We couldn't keep going with them.

00:28:14.110 --> 00:28:17.650
So we did four weeks of a complete forgiveness program.

00:28:18.030 --> 00:28:27.905
And at the end of that, they forgave family members who had hurt them, and they ended up with less anger and more hope for the future.

00:28:27.905 --> 00:28:28.625
Think about that.

00:28:28.625 --> 00:28:31.025
They were dying, and they had more hope for the future.

00:28:31.025 --> 00:28:31.525
Why?

00:28:32.305 --> 00:28:44.550
Because they oftentimes would bring family members to their bedside, reconcile knowing that when they pass, they were leaving their family in a better place.

00:28:45.170 --> 00:28:45.670
Right?

00:28:46.130 --> 00:28:56.365
So their psychological state was going up and improving as their physical state went down and they all did eventually pass away.

00:28:57.065 --> 00:29:04.685
And one of our most recent forgiveness interventions was with men in a maximum security correctional institution.

00:29:05.385 --> 00:29:10.120
Six months of the program where I'll I'll explain that next.

00:29:10.820 --> 00:29:14.440
And they also improved in forgiving.

00:29:15.060 --> 00:29:18.840
They became less angry, less anxious, less depressed.

00:29:19.575 --> 00:29:31.755
They went from clinical levels of anger, anxiety, and depression to nonclinical levels of anger, anxiety, and depression, and their sense of empathy toward others in general.

00:29:32.295 --> 00:29:34.235
Empathy toward others increased.

00:29:35.110 --> 00:29:39.930
People tell me that in maximum security corrections, that's almost unheard of.

00:29:40.390 --> 00:29:51.045
The control group that had the handpicked intervention by the correctional institution still were clinically angry, anxious, and depressed.

00:29:51.505 --> 00:29:59.445
They then went through the six month forgiveness program, and the clinical levels of anger, anxiety, and depression left them.

00:30:00.460 --> 00:30:13.440
It's the strongest results ever published in a maximum security prison anywhere in the world showing effects that are very positive in the psychological sense.

00:30:14.255 --> 00:30:17.955
Because usually, it's such a harsh environment, you don't see this.

00:30:18.335 --> 00:30:20.755
Forgiveness help them get their life back.

00:30:22.095 --> 00:30:32.800
So with all of that in mind, the general conclusion is the science shows forgiveness is very efficacious in helping people with mental and emotional compromise.

00:30:33.100 --> 00:30:34.480
So how do people forgive?

00:30:34.860 --> 00:30:36.880
Let's take a peek at that next slide.

00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:38.320
How do people forgive?

00:30:39.705 --> 00:30:43.885
And what we're going to do is we're gonna go through what I call four phases.

00:30:44.665 --> 00:30:49.165
But here's a preliminary question that I have in the next slide.

00:30:49.945 --> 00:31:01.180
If you're going to forgive and you're not gonna be able to forgive someone who searched you deeply in the, you know, fifteen minutes or so that we go through this, but you'll see the road map.

00:31:01.560 --> 00:31:02.060
Right?

00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:08.595
I'd ask people to study this road map and then to practice it.

00:31:08.895 --> 00:31:20.250
Aristotle tells me we perfect ourselves without ever reaching perfection in this moral virtue that's tough, but he called magnanimity by practice, practice, practice.

00:31:20.790 --> 00:31:29.130
So but first of all, think about someone who's hurt you and be sure there really was an injustice that you just didn't mistake something.

00:31:29.670 --> 00:31:36.745
And just think about someone for a moment, and then we go to our first phase, first of four phases in the next slide.

00:31:37.205 --> 00:31:41.065
And that's what we call the uncovering of your anger.

00:31:41.925 --> 00:31:48.660
And this is looking at the effects, not looking at the injustice itself.

00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.000
This is a very important distinction, everybody.

00:31:51.620 --> 00:31:56.920
In this first phase, we don't put what happened to you under a microscope.

00:31:57.060 --> 00:31:58.440
We look at the effects.

00:31:59.115 --> 00:32:03.455
And you know what I have found in studying forgiveness for thirty seven years?

00:32:04.315 --> 00:32:11.135
The effects of injustice against you oftentimes are worse than the injustice itself.

00:32:12.350 --> 00:32:21.890
As an example, when soldiers are fighting on a battlefield, that can be very high stress, especially if they encounter a lot of injustices.

00:32:23.470 --> 00:32:30.015
When is suicidal ideation or suicidal attempts occurring with veterans?

00:32:30.555 --> 00:32:31.055
Right.

00:32:31.115 --> 00:32:34.815
When they're veterans, after injustices.

00:32:36.075 --> 00:32:47.200
And so it seems to me that the injustices are grave, and they can be very troublesome, but it's living with the effects afterwards that is even worse.

00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:55.325
For example, we ask people, have you faced your anger, your unhealthy anger, the toxic anger, the abiding anger.

00:32:56.105 --> 00:32:59.005
A lot of times, people aren't aware of the depth of it.

00:32:59.145 --> 00:33:01.805
And I usually ask, I'm like, a one to 10 scale.

00:33:02.025 --> 00:33:03.305
How angry are you?

00:33:03.305 --> 00:33:07.725
When they break through denial, they oftentimes realize they're more angry than they realize.

00:33:08.810 --> 00:33:11.070
Another effect oftentimes is shame.

00:33:11.930 --> 00:33:19.930
If someone abandons you or you lose a job out of unfairness, you feel like you wanna hide under the bed.

00:33:19.930 --> 00:33:29.805
That's what shame basically is because you don't want the light shown upon you and people whispering, oh, what did that person do to to, deserve that?

00:33:30.105 --> 00:33:37.085
Well, maybe you did nothing to deserve it, but people will whisper anyway, and you don't deserve the shame as an effect.

00:33:38.590 --> 00:33:41.170
Oftentimes, people's health is affected.

00:33:41.790 --> 00:33:48.610
Do you know what the most frequent health complaint I get when I talk with people about injustices?

00:33:49.705 --> 00:33:50.205
Fatigue.

00:33:51.145 --> 00:34:02.720
You see, if you're carrying around on your back a big, big, pack of resentments, a big, big pack of, anger.

00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:09.760
Well, you're gonna be tired carrying around that package of anger and resentment or even hatred all the time.

00:34:10.220 --> 00:34:16.640
And carrying that around with you makes you tired, and quite frankly, you don't deserve that.

00:34:17.255 --> 00:34:18.635
See, that's another effect.

00:34:19.415 --> 00:34:27.595
And then yet another effect, and this is a dangerous one, so really be careful with this one, is what I call a changed world view.

00:34:28.375 --> 00:34:34.630
You might end up going from loving god to blaming god.

00:34:35.650 --> 00:34:38.470
God isn't the one who treated you unjustly, everybody.

00:34:39.170 --> 00:34:46.085
It's the free will decision of fallen humanity that got to you, not god himself.

00:34:46.705 --> 00:34:51.205
And yet people might say that, and then they'll leave the church as an example.

00:34:51.505 --> 00:35:05.330
And they're going in the wrong direction, and you see how the effects are getting them to think irrationally, blaming a just holy god who could never behave unjustly and pinning the blame there.

00:35:05.870 --> 00:35:13.665
And if you don't go to that level, you can go to a generalized level about humanity and say, no person can be trusted.

00:35:14.365 --> 00:35:19.085
Or if it's a romantic relationship, no man can be trusted.

00:35:19.085 --> 00:35:20.545
No woman can be trusted.

00:35:20.765 --> 00:35:25.745
And so there's a generalization of the worldview that then can affect your happiness.

00:35:26.420 --> 00:35:34.760
It can affect your salvation even if you make the wrong choice and have the worldview that blames god.

00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:38.420
So that's phase one, the uncovering phase.

00:35:38.420 --> 00:35:43.675
The next slide go we go to phase two, which is deciding to forgive.

00:35:43.675 --> 00:35:44.655
We make a decision.

00:35:45.675 --> 00:35:48.255
Do we wanna walk through this door of forgiveness?

00:35:48.715 --> 00:35:53.035
If you are going to do that, we go over what forgiveness is.

00:35:53.035 --> 00:35:54.335
You've been treated unjustly.

00:35:55.020 --> 00:35:57.920
You'll be working on getting rid of resentment.

00:35:58.700 --> 00:36:01.500
You'll try as best you can to offer goodness.

00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:02.640
You won't be excusing.

00:36:02.940 --> 00:36:05.280
You won't be, forgetting.

00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:10.000
You won't necessarily be reconciling, and you won't abandon justice.

00:36:10.115 --> 00:36:11.575
Do you want to do that?

00:36:12.275 --> 00:36:15.175
And when people say yes, we give a homework assignment.

00:36:16.435 --> 00:36:22.775
As you walk from this lecture, if you want to make a decision to forgive, here's my homework assignment for you.

00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:26.580
Try as best you can to three little words.

00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:30.560
Do no harm to the one who hurt you.

00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:31.460
Do no harm.

00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:35.220
And that could be even subtly putting the person down to others.

00:36:36.075 --> 00:36:37.295
Try not to do that.

00:36:37.755 --> 00:36:40.735
I'm not saying don't talk to others about the person.

00:36:41.275 --> 00:36:43.435
Just don't disparage the person.

00:36:43.435 --> 00:36:44.795
Put that person down.

00:36:44.795 --> 00:36:46.495
Drag that person through the mud.

00:36:47.115 --> 00:36:52.830
Try to commit to do no harm, which then gets us to the third phase.

00:36:53.130 --> 00:37:02.750
In the next slide, we start with thinking exercises because thinking is easier to move toward than feeling.

00:37:03.735 --> 00:37:05.515
And we have three different approaches.

00:37:05.975 --> 00:37:12.155
One we call the personal perspective, another global, and the other cosmic perspective.

00:37:12.855 --> 00:37:23.150
The personal perspective asks you as the one who was treated unjustly to see the history of woundedness in the one who hurt you.

00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:25.870
How was this person raised?

00:37:26.490 --> 00:37:49.510
What happened there where the person's heart was pierced or in adolescence with the peer group or in early adulthood, maybe at work or in a romantic relationship gone bad, where the person might have gotten confused, embittered, alienated with a worldview that isn't helpful, and you were the recipient of it?

00:37:50.450 --> 00:37:53.270
Do you see the woundedness in the other?

00:37:54.690 --> 00:37:59.270
The global perspective gets more abstract and asks this question.

00:38:00.425 --> 00:38:03.805
Are both of you part of the human condition?

00:38:05.545 --> 00:38:07.645
Do you both have unique DNA?

00:38:09.145 --> 00:38:11.485
If both of you cut, do you bleed?

00:38:12.650 --> 00:38:15.950
Do you both need adequate nutrition and rest?

00:38:16.410 --> 00:38:18.110
Will you both die one day?

00:38:20.090 --> 00:38:38.875
If you are so unique that you have unique DNA and you're so special in even in that biological way where there's never been a human being like you ever on the planet, you have, by definition, built in worth as a person.

00:38:40.790 --> 00:38:42.230
How about the one who hurt you?

00:38:42.230 --> 00:38:47.370
If you are special, unique, and irreplaceable, is it true about the one who hurt you?

00:38:47.830 --> 00:38:48.330
Right?

00:38:48.390 --> 00:38:50.970
You both share a common humanity together.

00:38:52.725 --> 00:38:57.625
And then we move to the cosmic perspective only for those who have a spiritual worldview.

00:38:57.925 --> 00:39:04.665
We don't go here for the atheist or agnostic or humanist who doesn't have a faith based or a spiritual perspective.

00:39:05.285 --> 00:39:09.360
But for those who do, we then ask a question such as this.

00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:16.720
So for those of you with a Catholic, Christian, spiritual perspective, here's a question for you.

00:39:17.100 --> 00:39:23.255
Is it true or not that you are made in the image and likeness of God?

00:39:25.315 --> 00:39:30.615
Well, it says so in the first book of the Old Testament.

00:39:30.675 --> 00:39:33.555
It says so in Genesis, and it's repeated in Genesis.

00:39:33.555 --> 00:39:34.890
It says it twice there.

00:39:35.930 --> 00:39:38.510
Everyone is made in the image and likeness of God.

00:39:39.530 --> 00:39:46.350
So does if you are made in the image and likeness of God, does that mean the one who hurt you gasped, gulp?

00:39:47.395 --> 00:39:50.775
Does that mean that person is made in the image and likeness of God?

00:39:51.795 --> 00:39:57.495
Some people say to me when they're on the early walking of forgiveness, oh, I wish I didn't hear that.

00:39:57.875 --> 00:40:02.410
That's a hard one to see this person is made in the image and likeness of god.

00:40:02.410 --> 00:40:04.190
I've already written the person off.

00:40:04.410 --> 00:40:04.910
Right.

00:40:05.130 --> 00:40:10.190
You're constructing that person's humanity again in your own mind, heart, and soul.

00:40:10.890 --> 00:40:14.350
And in doing so, you're also reconstructing your own.

00:40:15.115 --> 00:40:23.615
And so when you put all three perspectives together, tell the story of this person who's been wounded by others, confused, perhaps alienated.

00:40:24.395 --> 00:40:28.155
You share a common humanity, and you're both made in the image and likeness of god.

00:40:28.155 --> 00:40:29.775
What does that do to your heart?

00:40:30.410 --> 00:40:34.490
It oftentimes softens a little bit, and that's where the second bullet point comes in.

00:40:34.490 --> 00:40:35.870
There's compassion there.

00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:47.745
And then once you get a little stronger in these thinking exercises and the feeling exercise of being aware of the compassion in your heart when you tell the story broadly.

00:40:47.885 --> 00:40:51.265
See, we're expanding your story of who the other is.

00:40:51.565 --> 00:40:55.025
We ask you to bear the pain or accept the pain.

00:40:55.940 --> 00:41:00.440
And you stand up in the pain so you don't throw the pain back onto the other person.

00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:08.120
And that is the beginning of getting stronger, knowing you won't be crushed by that sack of voles on your back.

00:41:08.575 --> 00:41:11.535
You won't be crushed by that heavy weight on your back.

00:41:11.535 --> 00:41:18.895
You're standing, and you are standing for the other so you don't throw that pain back to the other.

00:41:18.895 --> 00:41:23.555
Remember, that's what this is all about, goodness toward the other.

00:41:24.230 --> 00:41:36.010
By the way, those of you who have a Christian perspective, do you just happen to have a model, hint hint, wink wink, of a person standing in the pain for you?

00:41:36.915 --> 00:41:37.415
Right.

00:41:37.555 --> 00:41:40.855
Jesus Christ stood in the pain for you.

00:41:41.635 --> 00:41:47.815
Can you stand in the pain for the one who hurt you so you don't throw the pain back to the other?

00:41:49.010 --> 00:42:00.150
And when you get strong enough to say, yeah yeah yeah yeah yes, tentatively, I know it's hard, we then ask the person to give a gift to the one who offended.

00:42:00.815 --> 00:42:00.975
Why?

00:42:00.975 --> 00:42:04.275
Because that's part of the fullness of a moral virtue.

00:42:04.495 --> 00:42:06.355
And what might that goodness be?

00:42:06.495 --> 00:42:17.940
A return phone call, a return email, a card, speaking to the person at a gathering, acknowledging the person's humanity, even to others if the person's deceased.

00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:22.580
Say something kind about that person to others.

00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:30.820
You see, that is widening your own heart, not just widening your mind in the perspective of the other.

00:42:31.185 --> 00:42:34.005
You're widening your heart toward the other.

00:42:34.385 --> 00:42:42.325
And then we have our fourth and final phase in the next slide, which we call discovery and release from emotional prison.

00:42:43.185 --> 00:42:47.510
First of all, try to discover meaning in your suffering.

00:42:48.690 --> 00:42:56.390
Do you realize that when you walk this process model, you are becoming more sensitive to the suffering of others?

00:42:57.535 --> 00:43:01.235
That you might be able to see suffering hearts that you didn't see before.

00:43:01.935 --> 00:43:10.515
Like, when you're perhaps in the, grocery store and everyone's kinda huffing and puffing because the cashier is slow.

00:43:10.975 --> 00:43:20.010
By the time you get up there, you realize that person might have been on the feet for four hours and is tired, is having a hard day.

00:43:20.310 --> 00:43:24.870
And rather than huffing at the person, you might say, well, thank you for doing this.

00:43:24.870 --> 00:43:26.410
I hope you have a good day.

00:43:26.875 --> 00:43:28.795
You're aware of the person's suffering.

00:43:28.795 --> 00:43:33.695
You're finding meaning in your own suffering by being attuned to the suffering of others.

00:43:34.315 --> 00:43:37.275
And so you might discover a new purpose in your life.

00:43:37.275 --> 00:43:44.230
I worked with a gentleman in a correctional institution who's never getting out, And he said, you know what I'm doing from now on?

00:43:44.230 --> 00:43:46.650
I'm helping my cellmates to forgive.

00:43:47.190 --> 00:43:50.650
I know I'm never getting out of here, but I'm gonna ease their burden.

00:43:51.350 --> 00:43:58.135
And as you give like this, you end up with the paradox of forgiving, which is the freedom of forgiveness.

00:43:58.915 --> 00:44:08.535
As you engage in reaching out to others for their sake, you are the one who is healed.

00:44:09.010 --> 00:44:20.630
And we've seen that with the incest survivor study with, Suzanne Friedman and the abused women with Gail Reed all the way down to the men in maximum security prison.

00:44:21.010 --> 00:44:26.535
As they gave to those who hurt them, they were the ones who are healed.

00:44:27.955 --> 00:44:43.340
So let me know in the next few slides, share with you how you can piece back together your own humanity when you have been disparaged, treated with disrespect, and hurt by other people.

00:44:43.640 --> 00:44:45.420
So let's go to the next slide.

00:44:47.080 --> 00:44:50.540
How do people restore their own humanity?

00:44:51.155 --> 00:44:52.195
And you're not doing it.

00:44:52.195 --> 00:44:54.455
You're not really now reconstructing.

00:44:54.675 --> 00:44:56.295
It happens to you.

00:44:56.595 --> 00:44:58.695
And let's take a look at the next slide.

00:44:59.155 --> 00:45:05.575
First of all, forgiveness restores self esteem as you'll see in this next slide.

00:45:06.870 --> 00:45:09.350
So if we could turn to that, there let's see.

00:45:09.350 --> 00:45:10.250
There we go.

00:45:10.950 --> 00:45:19.690
We did a study of people who were abused in the past by others, and these as victims were now addicted to drugs.

00:45:20.475 --> 00:45:26.815
And as they forgave those who abused them in the past, they restored their own self esteem.

00:45:27.195 --> 00:45:29.675
And we saw that in the incest survivor study.

00:45:29.675 --> 00:45:36.610
We saw that in the women who were divorced, who had very difficult marriages and had to leave.

00:45:37.310 --> 00:45:39.330
Why do they end up liking themselves?

00:45:40.030 --> 00:45:51.815
Because as they end up seeing a wider view of who the other is and start liking the other, you're making room to like yourself better.

00:45:52.355 --> 00:45:56.935
And as we see in the next slide, it's not just a feeling that is restored.

00:45:57.635 --> 00:46:08.410
So if we here, we can see that there's also an understanding that's restored, that there is a sense of worth as you see in the last word in the title there.

00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:14.710
There's a sense of worth that you give to the other, and it comes back around to you.

00:46:14.710 --> 00:46:15.210
Hey.

00:46:15.750 --> 00:46:30.135
If this other person who hurt me, who really did bad things, truly has a sense of worth as a human being, do you think I too have that kind of worth to stand in the pain for another?

00:46:30.670 --> 00:46:33.330
And in my pain, to give goodness to another?

00:46:33.870 --> 00:46:34.350
Yes.

00:46:34.350 --> 00:46:35.490
I have worth.

00:46:35.870 --> 00:46:43.250
So as you forgive and see the worth in the other, your worth is now restored.

00:46:44.795 --> 00:46:57.535
And as we see in the next slide, another thing that happens is that trust in others can be rebuilt when it once was shattered.

00:46:58.610 --> 00:47:03.830
Remember, the worldview can generalize where you say, no man can be trusted.

00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:05.590
No woman can be trusted.

00:47:06.370 --> 00:47:18.285
Well, Osterndorff and others, including myself, did a study with people who had very difficult relationships with their parents where the parent was an alcoholic.

00:47:19.305 --> 00:47:29.380
And so the these were adult children of alcoholics who were abused in childhood, and they had very difficult relationship problems in adulthood.

00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:33.060
They forgave the parent who was the alcoholic.

00:47:33.520 --> 00:47:34.500
You know what happened?

00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:44.835
These adult children of alcoholics will be able to trust more generally and had better relationships by forgiving their parents.

00:47:45.695 --> 00:47:48.275
That's how amazing forgiveness can be.

00:47:49.055 --> 00:48:03.320
And in a final slide here of putting your humanity back together, if we turn to the next slide, your sense of identity can be crushed by others who hurt you where you say, I'm not worth very much.

00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:05.720
I am a victim, and that is who I am.

00:48:05.720 --> 00:48:06.540
Well, no.

00:48:07.125 --> 00:48:22.460
Gail Reed and I, when we did that study of women who went through very rocky relationships and marriage and saw themselves as victims, ended up with a entirely different sense of their own identity.

00:48:23.160 --> 00:48:43.195
And as one person said to me, and I think it's a great quote because it shows the depth of this getting rid of the victim mentality, and I quote, as I forgave, I went from seeing myself as a victim to a survivor to now a thriver in life.

00:48:43.655 --> 00:48:47.195
This is the major construction of the person's own humanity.

00:48:47.990 --> 00:48:51.290
And with that in mind, let's turn to the next slide as a summary.

00:48:52.950 --> 00:49:02.730
The beauty of forgiveness, when a person chooses without pressure to forgive, it can put back the pieces of a damaged humanity.

00:49:04.735 --> 00:49:06.915
The person starts liking the self.

00:49:07.615 --> 00:49:11.155
The person begins to say, I too have worth.

00:49:11.775 --> 00:49:16.115
The person can begin to trust others so that relationships are stronger.

00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:24.700
And shedding the victim mentality gives you a more positive, wholesome identity as to who you are.

00:49:25.720 --> 00:49:35.815
And so with that in mind, I now want to switch to a qualitatively different view of forgiveness, the Catholic perspective on forgiving.

00:49:35.815 --> 00:49:38.075
If we would please turn to the next slide.

00:49:39.095 --> 00:49:56.370
In in his soaring apostolic letter, Salvifici Dolores in 1984, after he was shot and almost killed, Saint Pope John Paul the second talks of redemptive suffering, two really important words for us, everybody.

00:49:57.470 --> 00:50:01.090
Redemptive suffering with Jesus Christ when we suffer.

00:50:02.395 --> 00:50:05.135
Saint John Paul the second gives us an offer.

00:50:05.755 --> 00:50:13.055
As we suffer, we can redemptively suffer with Jesus out of love for him first.

00:50:14.510 --> 00:50:21.250
And as we redemptively suffer with Jesus, giving our suffering to Jesus, this changes the meaning of suffering.

00:50:22.110 --> 00:50:35.865
As Saint John Paul the second says in Salvifici Dolores, when we suffer with Jesus for the good of humanity, for the good of others, even for our own salvation, suffering now is linked to love.

00:50:35.865 --> 00:50:37.325
Did you ever think about that?

00:50:37.785 --> 00:50:47.480
If you have pain in your heart now, spiritual pain, emotional pain, or even physical pain in your body, your suffering can be linked to love.

00:50:49.220 --> 00:50:51.000
Forgiveness is about suffering.

00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:54.280
Therefore, here's the bottom line, everyone.

00:50:55.205 --> 00:51:07.945
We can unite our suffering caused by others injustice, unite our suffering with Jesus Christ suffering on his cross when we have been injured by others.

00:51:09.050 --> 00:51:19.870
As we do this, as we suffer with Jesus out of love for him, we can offer this suffering for the one who acted unfairly.

00:51:20.905 --> 00:51:23.325
You see, we're not just forgiving in isolation.

00:51:24.505 --> 00:51:31.005
We're now in the Catholic perspective forgiving with Jesus Christ for the other.

00:51:32.105 --> 00:51:34.125
What then is person to person forgiving?

00:51:35.450 --> 00:51:39.790
It is first coming to Jesus out of love for him on his cross.

00:51:40.490 --> 00:51:48.270
It then is extending the suffering love with Jesus precisely for the one who harmed us.

00:51:49.075 --> 00:51:53.495
Did you realize that what this does is it changes the meaning of forgiveness?

00:51:53.955 --> 00:51:56.375
It doesn't just change the meaning of suffering.

00:51:56.915 --> 00:52:02.135
It changes the meaning of forgiveness, which is now what is forgiveness?

00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:17.340
It's an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ for the person of for the purpose of giving a gift to the one who acted badly, which could be praying for the other, praying for the other's salvation.

00:52:18.995 --> 00:52:29.495
Do you realize you're uniting with Jesus on the cross with Jesus and praying for the other salvation through your suffering might help bring that person to heaven one day?

00:52:30.690 --> 00:52:33.090
Do you realize your forgiving is not for nothing?

00:52:33.090 --> 00:52:34.290
It can save a soul?

00:52:34.290 --> 00:52:35.830
Did you ever think about that?

00:52:36.450 --> 00:52:42.950
Our forgiving toward the redemptive suffering indeed may play a part in this person's salvation.

00:52:44.655 --> 00:52:47.795
Let's take a look at the next slide and continue with the Catholic.

00:52:52.655 --> 00:53:02.880
As we now are united in suffering love with Jesus for the other person's salvation, we are growing as persons.

00:53:05.180 --> 00:53:06.480
How are we doing that?

00:53:06.620 --> 00:53:09.040
How are we how are we growing as persons?

00:53:09.980 --> 00:53:12.320
Remember, we have free will, don't we?

00:53:13.275 --> 00:53:20.575
We're the only creatures on the planet with the free will of becoming more or less of who we have been created to be.

00:53:21.355 --> 00:53:32.660
You can become more human or less human without losing your humanity or your essence, But you can grow in your humanity because of the free will God gave you.

00:53:32.660 --> 00:53:33.860
Did you ever think about that?

00:53:33.860 --> 00:53:36.920
You can literally grow for greater humanness.

00:53:37.060 --> 00:53:39.480
What would that what does that mean for a Catholic?

00:53:40.445 --> 00:53:58.600
It means we are actually growing more and more in Christ likeness when we forgive if if we unite our pain with Jesus Christ on his cross first out of love for him.

00:53:59.220 --> 00:54:17.525
And then through that grace that we get on the cross with him, we shine the light of our pain, of our forgiving onto the one who hurt us, and we then get to grow more and more as the suffering servant.

00:54:18.785 --> 00:54:26.880
We grow more in love, which is the essence of our humanity because we are made in the image and likeness of God.

00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:28.660
It said it in Genesis one.

00:54:29.120 --> 00:54:32.100
And now we know the fullness of that, don't we?

00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:35.300
What does it mean to grow in the image and likeness of God?

00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:37.460
It means to grow in love.

00:54:38.255 --> 00:54:39.875
First John four eight.

00:54:40.335 --> 00:54:51.315
It means to grow in suffering love because we now have Jesus Christ on his cross as the one to lead us into what Christianity is all about.

00:54:51.870 --> 00:54:52.370
Right?

00:54:52.670 --> 00:54:58.370
And as we do that, the meaning of suffering turns to love.

00:54:58.510 --> 00:55:01.090
The meaning of forgiveness turns to love.

00:55:01.470 --> 00:55:03.890
We become more loving in our identity.

00:55:04.475 --> 00:55:17.375
In our very identity, we become more loving persons united, more deeply in love with Jesus Christ for for those who have heard us.

00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.540
You see the opportunity given to you when others hurt you?

00:55:22.640 --> 00:55:30.500
You are given the unbelievable opportunity to grow more in love with Jesus Christ.

00:55:31.995 --> 00:55:42.655
I'm not saying go look for injustice, but I'm saying when it happens, you have the golden opportunity of growing more in Christlikeness.

00:55:44.390 --> 00:55:48.730
That person is giving you that opportunity, that gift, if you will.

00:55:48.870 --> 00:55:51.850
And you know what the gift you are giving that person back?

00:55:53.110 --> 00:56:13.370
The opportunity for the possibility of repentance, the possibility of turning the life around, the possibility of salvation, and you playing at least a small part on that salvation because you are redemptively suffering with Jesus on his cross for the one who hurt you.

00:56:14.870 --> 00:56:17.450
So with that in mind, let's turn to the next slide.

00:56:18.310 --> 00:56:22.650
And I wanna ask you a question in this next one, please.

00:56:25.595 --> 00:56:28.095
Can we please turn to the next slide?

00:56:28.875 --> 00:56:29.115
No.

00:56:29.115 --> 00:56:30.735
Let's see the one before that.

00:56:30.875 --> 00:56:32.015
My my apologies.

00:56:32.795 --> 00:56:33.115
Yep.

00:56:33.115 --> 00:56:33.595
Thank you.

00:56:33.595 --> 00:56:34.395
Oh, let's see.

00:56:34.395 --> 00:56:35.275
There we go.

00:56:35.275 --> 00:56:35.775
Okay.

00:56:36.875 --> 00:56:38.895
As, let's see.

00:56:40.330 --> 00:56:40.970
Oh, let's see.

00:56:40.970 --> 00:56:41.850
There's one before.

00:56:41.850 --> 00:56:43.610
There's one after that, isn't there?

00:56:43.610 --> 00:56:45.530
Can you turn to one there we go.

00:56:45.530 --> 00:56:45.930
Okay.

00:56:45.930 --> 00:56:47.550
My apologies on that one.

00:56:47.850 --> 00:56:48.350
Okay.

00:56:48.730 --> 00:56:58.445
Do we need this kind of perspective of redemptively suffering with Jesus Christ on the cross as the new view of what forgiving is?

00:56:58.985 --> 00:57:15.430
And do we need that in the Catholic church today as more and more people seek comfort rather than the invigorating challenge to grow in a moral virtue, especially a moral virtue that includes self sacrificial love.

00:57:16.530 --> 00:57:24.985
I think we need a reawakening in the Catholic church with that to wake up people who are a little sleepy these days.

00:57:25.845 --> 00:57:38.120
I think we need a thorough examination and practice of genuine Catholic forgiving infused in the mother church today, and we cannot afford to wait.

00:57:38.580 --> 00:57:44.520
And I want to plant one seed for you with regard to how to put that into practice right away.

00:57:45.380 --> 00:57:58.305
The next time you are at holy mass and the priest is consecrating the host, put your suffering on the altar with the suffering Jesus Christ.

00:57:59.565 --> 00:58:10.740
And when he is broken for you and you are broken because of what the other person did to you, unite your suffering with Jesus Christ at the Eucharist.

00:58:12.080 --> 00:58:21.755
When you go up to receive the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, pray for the one who hurt you.

00:58:22.615 --> 00:58:30.875
Now take in the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ literally inside of you, physically inside of you.

00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:39.620
And with Jesus inside of you, be in touch with that pain in your heart caused by the other person.

00:58:40.160 --> 00:58:53.295
And through that pain, united with the broken Jesus Christ, who suffered for you and is suffering for the other, by the way, pray for the salvation of the soul of that person who hurt you.

00:58:54.235 --> 00:59:01.140
And don't give up on this Eucharistic exercise of forgiving those who have hurt you.

00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:11.780
Because over time, this becomes efficacious in your woundedness fading out and love replacing it.

00:59:12.385 --> 00:59:16.565
And so now I got one final challenge to do in final slide.

00:59:19.185 --> 00:59:26.245
What will be your forgiveness legacy when it's your turn, god willing, to pass to eternal life?

00:59:27.020 --> 00:59:35.360
Will you leave more behind on this earth more anger that you you will give to your children's children's children's children?

00:59:35.980 --> 01:00:04.170
That if it could be passed down, it could be a hundred years from now, and your anger is still living in the hearts of some of your family members, or will you try to leave the Catholic forgiveness legacy of love united with Jesus Christ now that you can give to others in your family and pass redemptive love to your family members so that gets into their heart.

01:00:04.630 --> 01:00:17.345
So that a hundred years from now, some of this forgiving love, redemptive forgiveness love that you started could be alive and well on this earth.

01:00:18.045 --> 01:00:26.720
And something of you, which is this love, can be very much alive in your family members being passed on to others.

01:00:27.660 --> 01:00:30.400
Do you know one reason why I'm a serious Catholic?

01:00:31.420 --> 01:00:35.680
Because of forgiveness as shown to me by the Catholic church.

01:00:36.015 --> 01:00:40.975
It's the deepest view of forgiveness I have ever seen, and I'm an egghead professor.

01:00:40.975 --> 01:00:44.835
I study everything possible that I can possibly get my hands on.

01:00:44.975 --> 01:00:50.880
I've never seen anything deeper than redemptive suffering with Jesus Christ for those who've heard us.

01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:54.500
That, ladies and gentlemen, is deep forgiving.

01:00:55.440 --> 01:01:03.300
I would like to end here now and entertain questions, clarifications, anything at all from you.

01:01:05.875 --> 01:01:08.675
Well, great that you should ask, doctor Anne.

01:01:08.675 --> 01:01:08.915
Right?

01:01:08.915 --> 01:01:12.275
We actually have several questions that have arrived to us.

01:01:12.275 --> 01:01:16.855
And as you have invited us to, jump right in, here we go.

01:01:18.650 --> 01:01:20.410
We'll kind of take them in order here.

01:01:20.810 --> 01:01:23.710
First question, we live in a cold world.

01:01:24.170 --> 01:01:31.790
Is it becoming harder for victims to find nurturing environments that improve the quality of life for those who are suffering?

01:01:32.735 --> 01:01:37.395
It seems that more people are isolating themselves in order to avoid conflicts.

01:01:40.175 --> 01:01:40.495
Yes.

01:01:40.495 --> 01:01:42.975
I do think the world is becoming colder.

01:01:42.975 --> 01:01:50.650
Just look at the political divide Have those of whose of us who've been around a while seen such divide?

01:01:51.430 --> 01:01:54.010
That seems very, very real.

01:01:54.550 --> 01:02:07.205
And we need environments, you're right, that can help nurture forgiveness and help all in that community advance consciously and deliberately in the moral virtue of forgiveness.

01:02:07.825 --> 01:02:19.750
That is why part one thing that's really deep in my heart is to see churches that choose to do so become forgiving communities.

01:02:20.770 --> 01:02:21.270
Right?

01:02:21.490 --> 01:02:44.480
And you can deliberately make churches forgiving communities where you deliberately use that term, forgiving community, have quotations on forgiveness from the Bible, from, church tradition, from, just different authors in the church bulletin once or twice a month or every week if you wish.

01:02:45.100 --> 01:02:48.220
You can have speakers come in a couple of times a year.

01:02:48.220 --> 01:02:55.120
You can have people in a book club, and it doesn't even have to be physically present, although that helps with the community.

01:02:55.845 --> 01:03:02.585
But you could meet even by Zoom like we are doing here occasionally and talk about a book on forgiveness, and there are many.

01:03:03.925 --> 01:03:14.690
And the church as forgiving community could be a very qualitatively fascinating development that I've never seen done, and it's near and dear to my heart.

01:03:15.310 --> 01:03:21.890
And what about the family as forgiving community where we deliberately use those words?

01:03:22.030 --> 01:03:33.195
Our family is a forgiving community where you talk about forgiveness deliberately and use teachable moments, such as you're watching something on television and there's a conflict there.

01:03:33.255 --> 01:03:37.995
You can ask, how might they have solved this differently had they forgiven one another?

01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:38.900
Right?

01:03:39.120 --> 01:03:45.940
Or around the dinner table, you can say without you know, you could only have to share everything as an adult with children.

01:03:46.240 --> 01:03:48.660
Well, I had a little bit of a bad day at work.

01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:53.505
And you talk about how you had to forgive someone who themselves was having a bad day.

01:03:53.505 --> 01:03:56.005
You're planting a seed that forgiveness is important.

01:03:57.265 --> 01:04:03.205
Three things, the forgiving community, the forgiving community, and the forgiving community.

01:04:03.825 --> 01:04:10.800
We absolutely need to use those terms and get them done, and it's very heavy on my heart that it happened.

01:04:11.340 --> 01:04:12.640
Thank you for that question.

01:04:13.580 --> 01:04:14.220
Thank you.

01:04:14.220 --> 01:04:15.040
Thank you.

01:04:15.820 --> 01:04:18.000
This question you may have answered sufficiently.

01:04:18.060 --> 01:04:19.815
I'll read it, and you you can tell us.

01:04:19.975 --> 01:04:27.975
Do you believe healing can occur in the victim completely on their own without facilitation or contact with those who have made them suffer?

01:04:27.975 --> 01:04:31.275
In isolation, can a victim's self esteem ever be restored?

01:04:33.670 --> 01:04:43.370
Actually, when people are hurt very, very gravely, oftentimes, they do not heal in relationship to the other person.

01:04:44.165 --> 01:04:48.025
Let's take a look at abandonment of a marital relationship.

01:04:49.045 --> 01:05:00.320
The other person now is in Arizona, and you're in Washington, DC, and the person has cut off all communication with you, ghosted you.

01:05:00.860 --> 01:05:03.840
You do not have to have that person to forgive.

01:05:04.540 --> 01:05:09.820
Let's take a look, and we don't know for sure the heart of the father of the prodigal son.

01:05:09.820 --> 01:05:12.255
We don't know that because the Bible doesn't tell us.

01:05:12.735 --> 01:05:21.715
But remember, the prodigal son's father ran to the prodigal son, embraced the prodigal son before the prodigal son said anything.

01:05:22.415 --> 01:05:25.715
The prodigal son might have been coming home to get his laundry done.

01:05:26.120 --> 01:05:29.100
The prodigal son might have been coming home to get more money.

01:05:30.040 --> 01:05:44.865
I'm guessing that the father had done forgiving in his heart with the son gone in another land where he was so destitute he had to work on a pig farm, which was not a good thing for a Hebrew boy to do.

01:05:45.405 --> 01:05:51.505
And I'm guessing that the father was doing that in his heart prior to meeting the son.

01:05:52.010 --> 01:05:55.790
Even if he had never met the son again, what can he do?

01:05:56.090 --> 01:06:00.030
He can get rid of the resentment in his heart that the son might have put there.

01:06:00.810 --> 01:06:09.125
He could be saying good things to the elder son, who, by the way, got bent out of shape when the fatted calf was slaughtered, saying, what about me?

01:06:09.425 --> 01:06:10.565
Well, that's another story.

01:06:11.505 --> 01:06:18.965
And so the the father probably was going to accomplish all of this without this on there.

01:06:19.425 --> 01:06:24.080
Abandoned people can forgive without the other being there.

01:06:24.220 --> 01:06:29.360
Does it help if the other comes repentantly and with remorse and says, I am sorry?

01:06:29.420 --> 01:06:30.080
Of course.

01:06:31.100 --> 01:06:44.195
But remember, this is offering goodness that can be offered, like saying having a mass said for the person or, saying kind things about the person to other family members.

01:06:44.895 --> 01:06:49.555
There are ways to be good to people without face to face, and that's what I like about forgiveness.

01:06:49.850 --> 01:06:51.230
Otherwise, think about it.

01:06:51.610 --> 01:07:04.190
If you cannot forgive well unless the person comes to you, you are literally trapped in your unforgiveness until this other person decides to cooperate and be reasonable.

01:07:05.145 --> 01:07:07.245
That is not reasonable.

01:07:08.025 --> 01:07:18.125
And so what I like about forgiveness is it opens up the possibility of you restoring your own humanity even if the person continues to reject you.

01:07:19.010 --> 01:07:31.030
And that's what I would call part of the beauty of forgiveness that you can heal, become a whole person even if the other person is trying to bring you down and trying to compromise your humanity.

01:07:33.535 --> 01:07:34.335
Thank you.

01:07:34.335 --> 01:07:35.155
Thank you.

01:07:35.775 --> 01:07:36.675
Next question.

01:07:36.975 --> 01:07:41.315
Do you think there is a danger in treating symptoms before the root cause?

01:07:41.535 --> 01:07:48.310
Considering the studies you mentioned, you could have done a standard treatment to lower their depression without having achieved forgiveness?

01:07:49.650 --> 01:07:50.130
Okay.

01:07:50.130 --> 01:07:51.510
That's a great question.

01:07:52.450 --> 01:08:02.150
What when we started, Suzanne Friedman and I, when we started that study on incest survivors, the published literature said this.

01:08:02.985 --> 01:08:14.205
If you are working in a clinical context with incest survivors, do not expect much change from them in terms of their emotional and psychological well-being.

01:08:14.940 --> 01:08:30.240
The literature actually said it's unethical to have incest survivors come into therapy with an expectation of much change because we don't have powerful enough approaches for this to actually happen.

01:08:31.395 --> 01:08:40.855
So if we waited and tried to work with the incest survivors on ameliorating depression, it literally would not have happened.

01:08:41.235 --> 01:08:43.635
And I actually have scientific proof on that.

01:08:43.635 --> 01:08:44.675
You know what that is?

01:08:44.675 --> 01:08:45.895
The control group.

01:08:46.200 --> 01:08:53.020
The control group was engaging in therapy as best they could away from us for fourteen months.

01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:56.620
At the end of that time, how was their depression?

01:08:56.760 --> 01:08:58.860
They were still clinically depressed.

01:08:59.375 --> 01:09:01.555
It's not that they just had some depression.

01:09:01.615 --> 01:09:11.715
They had enough depression that a licensed psychologist such as myself, looking at their protocol of depression, would be concerned about them as a person.

01:09:12.335 --> 01:09:13.955
They had made no progress.

01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:20.180
Then they started the forgiveness program, and they went down in two nonclinical levels.

01:09:20.480 --> 01:09:43.800
So, actually, we have to change our thinking, in my humble opinion, in the mental health profession, and realize we need forgiveness as a pathway to start the healing process of these stubbornly entrenched mental health challenges such as depression, such as heightened anxiety, and hopelessness, which is a big deal these days.

01:09:43.800 --> 01:09:51.100
A lot of people are walking around with hopelessness in their hearts, and it is in the forgiving that all of that is restored.

01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:53.100
Wow.

01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:54.060
Wow.

01:09:54.275 --> 01:09:55.015
Thank you.

01:09:56.355 --> 01:09:57.735
Another strong question.

01:09:58.035 --> 01:10:05.975
Are there any studies for victims of clergy sexual abuse benefiting from forgiveness or is this an area without much research yet?

01:10:07.250 --> 01:10:13.810
I could be, remiss in my scholarly knowledge, but I don't know of any.

01:10:13.810 --> 01:10:23.805
I don't think there is a study that has actually been done for victims who choose, some would not, but who choose to forgive in this situation.

01:10:25.385 --> 01:10:27.885
Ask me if I'd like to get this study done.

01:10:28.425 --> 01:10:32.285
We have over 400 people tuned into this talk.

01:10:32.665 --> 01:10:35.805
Anyone out there wanna do that research with me?

01:10:36.180 --> 01:10:37.320
Twist my arm.

01:10:37.700 --> 01:10:40.120
I totally would like to get this done.

01:10:40.580 --> 01:10:41.060
Why?

01:10:41.060 --> 01:10:43.080
Because it's so deeply important.

01:10:43.700 --> 01:10:45.880
And, again, keep this in mind, however.

01:10:45.940 --> 01:10:47.240
Forgiveness is controversial.

01:10:48.100 --> 01:10:56.985
If you and I started this, people would howl, and they'd say, how dare you demand that people forgive?

01:10:57.125 --> 01:10:59.785
And the response to that is, we're not demanding.

01:11:00.405 --> 01:11:01.385
We're not pressuring.

01:11:02.085 --> 01:11:05.465
We're not even suggesting that we're making it available.

01:11:06.220 --> 01:11:15.520
And if those who wish to, who choose to walk that path, we are here with what let me use a buzzword here.

01:11:15.580 --> 01:11:20.705
Empirically verified treatment called forgiveness, which you won't be excusing.

01:11:21.005 --> 01:11:25.645
You see, that's where people will howl when they misunderstand what forgiveness is.

01:11:25.645 --> 01:11:34.950
The how dare you comes in when they think we are minimizing the evil of this kind of sexual abuse.

01:11:34.950 --> 01:11:35.190
No.

01:11:35.190 --> 01:11:35.350
No.

01:11:35.350 --> 01:11:35.850
No.

01:11:36.070 --> 01:11:37.530
It will remain unjust.

01:11:38.310 --> 01:11:42.250
It it was unjust, is unjust, and will always be unjust.

01:11:42.790 --> 01:11:50.345
But for those who would like to do this, I would imagine they could have remarkable healing.

01:11:51.205 --> 01:12:04.830
And even if they have come up with a negative view of the church, which is a philosophical error of reductionism, of reducing the church to less than it is because of a person.

01:12:05.530 --> 01:12:30.780
So we're taking a person's action and generalizing it to the whole church and reducing the church as to what the church actually is, I would bet you here's a hypothesis I would have if we can do the study, that a person's view of the church would widen again to be more truthful, that the church also is standing against this and calling it what it is, which is evil.

01:12:31.320 --> 01:12:33.000
And it's not the church's fault.

01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:39.500
It's a fallen person's fault, and that should not lead to the disparagement of the church universal.

01:12:40.225 --> 01:12:50.145
And so if people want to do this, they're not excusing, but those of you who want to do this with me would need the moral virtue of courage.

01:12:50.145 --> 01:12:51.045
You know why?

01:12:51.505 --> 01:12:57.450
You're gonna be yelled at for even suggesting this, all the more reason why we have to do it.

01:12:58.310 --> 01:12:58.810
Fair.

01:12:58.950 --> 01:12:59.350
Fair.

01:12:59.350 --> 01:13:00.170
Thank you.

01:13:00.870 --> 01:13:03.430
Here's an interesting question.

01:13:03.430 --> 01:13:09.450
If the benefits of forgiveness are so strong, should I forgive primarily to help others or to help myself?

01:13:10.795 --> 01:13:22.095
There are many reasons why we forgive, and there's no one reason where you should feel ashamed of it or say, well, I can't have other reasons.

01:13:23.530 --> 01:13:34.570
Oftentimes, when people come into forgiveness therapy, they come in for the reason that they are drowning in an emotional, psychological sense.

01:13:34.570 --> 01:13:35.630
That's not dishonorable.

01:13:36.375 --> 01:13:38.455
They are coming in for self healing.

01:13:38.455 --> 01:13:39.755
Think about an analogy.

01:13:40.455 --> 01:13:49.835
If you are a nonswimmer in a stormy lake and I throw you a life preserver, you're gonna take it because you need it to save your life.

01:13:50.550 --> 01:14:03.450
Well, if you need to enter forgiveness therapy for yourself to recapture humanity so you can be kind to your family members, you can get the job done at work, that's very honorable.

01:14:04.825 --> 01:14:09.965
But there's also more to the reasons other than reductionism again.

01:14:10.185 --> 01:14:11.945
It's like, well, I have that one reason.

01:14:11.945 --> 01:14:15.145
That's the only reason I have and the only reason I need.

01:14:15.145 --> 01:14:15.385
No.

01:14:15.385 --> 01:14:15.625
No.

01:14:15.625 --> 01:14:19.530
Listen to all the other reasons that there can be for forgiving.

01:14:20.310 --> 01:14:21.930
First, for myself to heal.

01:14:22.390 --> 01:14:33.050
Second, to help the other to heal because the person obviously needs healing who's dumping the truck on me, possibly for a renewed relationship, if that's possible.

01:14:33.805 --> 01:14:40.305
Another is forgiveness as an end in and of itself because to exercise any moral virtue is good.

01:14:40.525 --> 01:14:50.330
And so regardless of the consequences, regardless if I heal, if the other heals, or if we get back together, it is good to practice forgiveness in and of itself.

01:14:50.950 --> 01:14:52.570
You wanna hear another reason?

01:14:53.270 --> 01:15:05.265
To unite with Jesus Christ in redemptive suffering for the other salvation so that I get a more intimate relationship with Jesus Christ and through that to help save that other person's soul.

01:15:05.885 --> 01:15:07.645
Look how far we've come from.

01:15:07.645 --> 01:15:10.625
I want this for myself because I'm drowning in the lake.

01:15:10.765 --> 01:15:14.305
Do I want intimacy with Jesus Christ for the other salvation?

01:15:14.765 --> 01:15:16.385
I just gave you five reasons.

01:15:16.930 --> 01:15:18.150
Everyone are the illegitimate.

01:15:19.010 --> 01:15:21.110
Does everyone get to that highest level?

01:15:21.330 --> 01:15:21.830
No.

01:15:22.130 --> 01:15:29.295
Because we don't talk about forgiveness even in Catholicism on that highest level, and it breaks my heart.

01:15:29.695 --> 01:15:37.075
We need to show people that endpoint so that they can choose if they wish that reason for themselves.

01:15:37.615 --> 01:15:42.355
But if they don't see it because we don't talk about it, they'll miss it.

01:15:42.415 --> 01:15:45.155
I don't want people to miss that highest level.

01:15:46.070 --> 01:15:46.550
Mhmm.

01:15:46.550 --> 01:15:47.050
Mhmm.

01:15:47.110 --> 01:15:47.850
Thank you.

01:15:49.590 --> 01:15:51.190
So, next question.

01:15:51.190 --> 01:15:59.190
If we're unable to express our feelings of anger, sadness, or resentment towards the person who wronged us, how would you suggest we forgive from our hearts?

01:15:59.190 --> 01:16:01.130
How how does that part work?

01:16:01.565 --> 01:16:02.065
Okay.

01:16:02.365 --> 01:16:08.365
What we can do is give up the resentment without putting it on a platter to the other and say, see.

01:16:08.365 --> 01:16:12.705
Because we were gonna have to be careful with that because you could be even intemperate.

01:16:13.325 --> 01:16:19.080
That's a vice of temperance, according to platonic tradition, of course.

01:16:19.380 --> 01:16:29.160
And so you have to be careful that you don't lord it over the other if you went to the person said, look how much anger I've gotten rid of, and look how much anger you've caused me.

01:16:29.565 --> 01:16:39.665
You can get rid of the anger silently and express that in goodness verbally toward others or toward the other person.

01:16:40.125 --> 01:16:46.580
And you definitely do not have to go to the other to talk about the amelioration of the anger at all.

01:16:46.960 --> 01:16:50.740
Because, remember, there's three levels to the definition of forgiveness.

01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:52.100
You've been treated unjustly.

01:16:52.800 --> 01:16:59.285
You get rid of deliberately, consciously, willfully that anger, but then you give the goodness.

01:16:59.285 --> 01:17:01.305
How about focusing only on the goodness?

01:17:01.765 --> 01:17:15.120
And if you can't be with the person, as I've said several times in this talk, you can express that goodness to others on behalf of that other person toward the other, but indirectly toward others.

01:17:15.500 --> 01:17:17.920
And, again, you can pray for the other salvation.

01:17:18.140 --> 01:17:28.355
You can talk with God about this person and saving this person without ever saying another word to this person if you cannot.

01:17:28.895 --> 01:17:30.655
But let's not get in temperate either.

01:17:30.655 --> 01:17:36.835
I don't want people walking away from this lecture and say, I'm glad I came because now I can get rid of that louse.

01:17:37.070 --> 01:17:41.630
Now I can never have to talk with that person because that egghead in right said I don't have to.

01:17:41.630 --> 01:17:42.110
Well, no.

01:17:42.110 --> 01:17:42.270
No.

01:17:42.270 --> 01:17:42.770
No.

01:17:43.310 --> 01:17:53.095
What you do when you forgive is you extend your hand to the other to say, come out out of the come up out of the pit.

01:17:53.155 --> 01:17:54.135
Come up higher.

01:17:54.755 --> 01:18:01.575
The other sometimes spits on your hand or wants to bite your hand, in which case you cannot keep extending the hand.

01:18:01.955 --> 01:18:10.230
But when you forgive, you make that available, then the uniting back together is the other person's call.

01:18:10.850 --> 01:18:14.130
So you can extend that hand if the other lets you.

01:18:14.130 --> 01:18:18.870
What if the other person abandoned you and that was in Arizona when you're in Washington DC?

01:18:19.315 --> 01:18:27.095
You can't literally extend that hand physically, but you could through a letter or an email, for example, or a third party or whatever.

01:18:27.795 --> 01:18:32.455
But it's up to the other to take that hand because think of what you're doing.

01:18:33.160 --> 01:18:39.820
You are offering the beauty of giving something to the other who wasn't giving to you.

01:18:40.200 --> 01:18:51.795
You're giving the person a chance at a second chance, at a redemption of a relationship, and even more deeply with Jesus Christ, the redemption of a soul.

01:18:52.575 --> 01:18:57.315
But it doesn't have to happen because the other doesn't necessarily accept it.

01:18:58.975 --> 01:18:59.455
Okay.

01:19:00.015 --> 01:19:00.835
Next question.

01:19:00.975 --> 01:19:01.375
Thank you.

01:19:01.375 --> 01:19:04.800
You're thank you for the rapid picking up of questions.

01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:05.700
It's very helpful.

01:19:07.040 --> 01:19:08.800
This is kind of two related questions.

01:19:08.800 --> 01:19:13.780
I wonder how forgiveness works when one is in the midst of trauma.

01:19:14.240 --> 01:19:24.045
And and kind of connected to that, when does forgiveness become enabling, especially if when the negative treatment continues after the forgiveness and reconciliation process?

01:19:24.505 --> 01:19:25.005
Right.

01:19:25.225 --> 01:19:25.545
Okay.

01:19:25.545 --> 01:19:29.165
When you're in the midst of the trauma, I get that question all the time.

01:19:29.305 --> 01:19:30.365
Here's an example.

01:19:30.665 --> 01:19:38.310
A woman will come to me and say, you know, my husband does verbal subtle diggings at me every single day.

01:19:38.310 --> 01:19:41.270
I get 10 of them a day, and it's built up.

01:19:41.270 --> 01:19:42.810
The tenth one was hard.

01:19:43.270 --> 01:19:45.210
The two hundredth is even harder.

01:19:45.885 --> 01:19:47.585
Should I just simply not forgive?

01:19:47.965 --> 01:19:49.885
My answer is, it's your choice.

01:19:49.885 --> 01:20:04.420
But if you like forgiveness, if you understand it truly, then it's even more important in the midst of trauma that you forgive to protect your own heart from the effects of that trauma.

01:20:04.960 --> 01:20:18.225
Because those effects can keep building up to where you are brought down and your humanity is broken up, your self esteem, your sense of worth, your sense of trust, your own identity as to who you are as a person.

01:20:18.845 --> 01:20:26.865
Your continuing to forgive is harder, but it makes it all the more important because your humanity is at risk.

01:20:27.325 --> 01:20:32.630
So if you like forgiveness, you understand it properly, You know what it is.

01:20:32.770 --> 01:20:33.750
Go for it.

01:20:34.290 --> 01:20:42.230
Enabling only will occur if you don't understand that forgiveness and justice exist side by side.

01:20:42.610 --> 01:20:50.355
If you're thinking in an either or way, now that I'm forgiving, I am letting the person have that person's way.

01:20:50.495 --> 01:20:50.995
No.

01:20:51.455 --> 01:20:55.535
When you forgive, you do not let the person have that person's way.

01:20:55.535 --> 01:21:01.590
That is not letting justice have free reign together with forgiveness.

01:21:02.130 --> 01:21:06.310
Those two must grow up together or one or the other can be distorted.

01:21:07.170 --> 01:21:10.790
How do you distort forgiveness when you abandon justice?

01:21:11.090 --> 01:21:11.590
Enabling.

01:21:12.690 --> 01:21:17.765
Because then you are basically saying, I'm giving the message that all is okay.

01:21:18.225 --> 01:21:20.385
That's not the message when you forgive.

01:21:20.385 --> 01:21:30.400
The forgiveness is, I am loving you through my pain, but I'm not gonna necessarily interact with you if you keep giving me pain.

01:21:30.400 --> 01:21:32.020
That's a justice issue.

01:21:32.480 --> 01:21:32.980
Okay?

01:21:33.440 --> 01:21:38.020
So the intemperance when you forgive without justice is enabling.

01:21:38.800 --> 01:21:40.740
How about justice without forgiveness?

01:21:41.135 --> 01:21:42.755
You know what that can deal with?

01:21:43.135 --> 01:22:00.070
When we get down to the peace table, even husband and wife, for example, at the kitchen table, you might demand far more than you should be because you want the pound of flesh as happened with Shylock and the Merchant of Venice from Shakespeare.

01:22:00.530 --> 01:22:01.030
Right?

01:22:01.250 --> 01:22:05.590
In other words, call it justice, but what you really want is revenge.

01:22:06.290 --> 01:22:14.035
And without the gentleness and the softened heart of forgiveness, your quest for justice can spill over to the intemperance of revenge.

01:22:14.575 --> 01:22:16.035
That's why we need both.

01:22:17.375 --> 01:22:17.875
Perfect.

01:22:18.015 --> 01:22:18.755
Thank you.

01:22:20.255 --> 01:22:20.735
Okay.

01:22:20.735 --> 01:22:22.035
Next next question.

01:22:22.095 --> 01:22:25.795
We're we're nearing the end of the list, which is about right with our timing.

01:22:26.870 --> 01:22:32.170
Can you tell us a little bit about training on the process of implementing forgiveness therapy?

01:22:32.550 --> 01:22:41.595
Is the process model of forgiveness, for example, outlined, in detail in in in the book, Forgiveness is a Choice that that you published?

01:22:42.155 --> 01:22:44.175
And do you have any additional book recommendations?

01:22:44.875 --> 01:22:45.375
Okay.

01:22:45.595 --> 01:22:46.075
Yes.

01:22:46.075 --> 01:22:54.495
Forgiveness is a choice was my first self help book on forgiving for the general public, and it works people through the process model.

01:22:55.275 --> 01:23:02.810
I then have a book, which actually is deeper than forgiveness is a choice called the forgiving life.

01:23:03.270 --> 01:23:12.815
It's also published by the American Psychological Association, and it's a Socratic dialogue between two women, Sophia and Inez.

01:23:13.035 --> 01:23:17.535
Sophia is the word meaning wisdom, and she's the therapist.

01:23:17.675 --> 01:23:19.295
And Inez means purity.

01:23:20.155 --> 01:23:24.015
And it they go through the process model through dialogue.

01:23:24.670 --> 01:23:34.690
But this more deep than forgiveness is a choice because I link forgiving very expressly in the early chapters to love.

01:23:35.310 --> 01:23:37.310
And I'm it's really interesting.

01:23:37.310 --> 01:23:44.695
It's a secular book with the American Psychological Association, but forgiving in that book is linked to agape love.

01:23:45.315 --> 01:23:51.655
And then the third one published by the Norton Publishing House in New York is called eight keys to forgiveness.

01:23:52.170 --> 01:23:54.650
It's a series called eight keys to this and that.

01:23:54.650 --> 01:23:58.270
So when they asked me, I called them up and said, eight keys to forgiveness.

01:23:58.410 --> 01:23:59.770
There are more than eight keys.

01:23:59.770 --> 01:24:00.990
There are more like 20.

01:24:01.050 --> 01:24:03.470
Can I write a book called 20 keys to forgiveness?

01:24:03.930 --> 01:24:05.370
They said, sit down there, buddy.

01:24:05.370 --> 01:24:09.295
It's called the eight keys, kind of a program here.

01:24:09.295 --> 01:24:10.495
So, okay, eight keys.

01:24:10.495 --> 01:24:13.395
So I so I wrote an eight keys to forgiveness book.

01:24:13.695 --> 01:24:17.615
And that also works people through the process, but a little differently.

01:24:17.615 --> 01:24:19.935
We jump around a little bit more there.

01:24:19.935 --> 01:24:22.350
But, again, it's a self help book.

01:24:22.350 --> 01:24:38.555
We also have the book forgiveness therapy published by the APA, and we have a course on that for therapists, at the International Forgiveness Institute, which is a nonprofit organization we started quarter of a century ago.

01:24:38.935 --> 01:24:41.675
It's internationalforgiveness.com.

01:24:42.295 --> 01:24:51.050
And then, the APA has actually published two videos, training sessions for clinicians.

01:24:51.270 --> 01:24:59.290
The first one is led by my colleague, doctor Richard Fitzgibbons, who actually works with a client on that video.

01:24:59.830 --> 01:25:03.370
And then I work with the client, Beth, in the second video.

01:25:03.590 --> 01:25:10.255
And these are real sessions where we first met these clients for the first time, and then they said, okay.

01:25:10.255 --> 01:25:11.235
Camera's rolling.

01:25:11.455 --> 01:25:18.035
And then APA asked the impossible of us, which was to show movement in forgiveness in one session.

01:25:18.710 --> 01:25:35.155
As one takes time to build up client rapport, client therapist rapport in at least four sessions, they asked us to not only start the rapport, but to show movement and forgiveness in forty five minutes, which by the grace of god happened in both of them.

01:25:35.155 --> 01:25:37.735
Well, I don't you know, thank you, heavenly father.

01:25:37.875 --> 01:25:39.495
Otherwise, it wouldn't have happened.

01:25:39.795 --> 01:25:51.990
So we have all these materials, three self help books, a book for the, mental health professional forgiveness therapy, and two training videos and then, of course, at the International Forgiveness Institute.

01:25:53.570 --> 01:25:54.210
Thank you.

01:25:54.210 --> 01:25:55.430
Thank you very much.

01:25:56.610 --> 01:25:58.770
Here's, here's kind of a final question.

01:25:58.770 --> 01:26:05.765
This is a little bit of a negative context, but also, I think, an opportunity to really speak into the importance that you've outlined earlier.

01:26:06.385 --> 01:26:15.045
Why do we see so much lack of forgiveness among people of faith, families of faith, religious communities, local churches?

01:26:16.810 --> 01:26:29.870
I think we don't see enough of forgiveness in churches or families, quite frankly, because we don't make it consciously and deliberately a part of the norms of human interaction.

01:26:31.055 --> 01:26:38.195
Forgiveness has not risen to and I talk about person to person forgiveness.

01:26:38.255 --> 01:26:43.955
Of course, god, the human forgiveness in the Catholic confessional has been there, thank god, for a long time.

01:26:44.200 --> 01:26:50.860
But person to person forgiveness has not had the ascendancy that it should have.

01:26:51.240 --> 01:27:04.825
A friend of mine, Monsignor John Hebel said to me, you know, at different times in the history of the church, different aspects of really important issues of the church have risen.

01:27:05.445 --> 01:27:09.945
And he says, I think he said this to me probably twenty years ago.

01:27:10.165 --> 01:27:14.810
I think that time for person to person forgiveness is ascending.

01:27:15.510 --> 01:27:29.895
And if that's the case, what you we have to do is create a norm in families and churches that person to person forgiving is worthwhile and should be become part of who we are.

01:27:29.895 --> 01:27:31.275
We can change norms.

01:27:31.815 --> 01:27:34.795
Look at the norm of changing cigarette smoking.

01:27:35.735 --> 01:27:39.180
When you look at movies in the forties, everyone had a cigarette.

01:27:39.420 --> 01:27:39.920
Okay?

01:27:40.180 --> 01:27:42.880
Then there was a lot of advertising.

01:27:43.260 --> 01:27:48.960
And what happened was now at the University of Wisconsin Madison, you literally can't smoke in buildings.

01:27:49.180 --> 01:28:00.505
Those who I don't smoke, but for those who do, they have to bear minus 10 degrees Fahrenheit in January to go out and and deal with their addiction.

01:28:01.205 --> 01:28:07.540
But what's happened is the norm of nonsmoking shifted and actually happened.

01:28:07.540 --> 01:28:10.520
That's just one example of what can happen in societies.

01:28:11.620 --> 01:28:18.600
Ask me if I would like to see a norm of forgiving as important in families and churches.

01:28:18.820 --> 01:28:21.000
That's the idea of the forgiving community.

01:28:21.275 --> 01:28:24.895
So we're going full circle with what we started in the questions.

01:28:25.355 --> 01:28:32.655
We need to create a norm by sermons on forgiving, little bulletin inserts, speakers.

01:28:33.115 --> 01:28:33.775
I volunteer.

01:28:34.075 --> 01:28:34.315
Okay.

01:28:34.315 --> 01:28:36.315
I'll I'll volunteer to do one or two.

01:28:36.315 --> 01:28:36.815
Okay?

01:28:37.250 --> 01:28:37.910
No problem.

01:28:38.050 --> 01:28:49.270
We need to keep the ID in front of people so that it's a norm, and we don't fall into the, really, error of what Blaise Pascal called diversion.

01:28:50.105 --> 01:28:55.405
Because it could be the case that people will get all excited about it, and it'll fade in a year.

01:28:55.705 --> 01:28:58.285
We need the moral virtue of perseverance.

01:28:59.545 --> 01:29:11.950
You start planting forgiveness as a norm within Catholic churches and within families, and my heart is very heavy in that happening sooner rather than later.

01:29:12.490 --> 01:29:13.210
Thank you.

01:29:13.210 --> 01:29:22.685
I wanna thank you, doctor Enright, so much for this, wonderful and compelling presentation this evening, for sharing this with our community.

01:29:22.685 --> 01:29:24.065
Thank you so very much.

01:29:24.365 --> 01:29:27.425
It's been my honor to be with Divine Mercy University.

01:29:27.645 --> 01:29:30.785
You are a great institution, and I admire you.

01:29:30.845 --> 01:29:31.825
So thank you.

01:29:32.500 --> 01:29:33.620
Thank you very much.

01:29:33.620 --> 01:29:39.700
Our next Newman lecture will be doctor Vitz, on Thursday, April 20.

01:29:39.700 --> 01:29:42.200
And you can see it's a great and compelling topic.

01:29:42.500 --> 01:29:48.215
Psychology and visual art, modernist painting and postmodern art and the recovery of beauty.

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Please tell all your friends about this, and please join us, on that evening.

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And one final note, many of you have asked, where can we find this lecture, after this evening?

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And the answer is, within a couple of weeks at the most, it will be uploaded to Divine Mercy University's YouTube channel.

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You will be able to watch it again there and share it with your friends there.

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Please do that.

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Please help spread the word about this really, really important topic.

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Thank you all very much.

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Good night.