Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast sponsored by Divine Mercy University.
My name is Thomas Kronquist.
I'm your cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father, how are you doing today?
I'm doing wonderfully, Tom.
How are you?
Very good.
We are going to be speaking again with, Ian Masson, who is the director of the IPS center here at the university.
And, on another very interesting topic today, we're gonna be talking about, parenting skills for reducing children's anxiety.
And I think that's having a number of children myself, seven children.
I I'm very interested to hear what, Ian has to say.
So for those who didn't hear his first podcast that we we did, can you give us Ian, first of all, welcome to the Cult to Flourish podcast.
Can you give us a little bit of background, your your educational background and how you became involved with psychology and the, IPS center, Divine Mercy University and the IPS center?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Good to be back.
So, I'm as as as you mentioned, I'm the director of the IPS Center for Psychological Services, and we are the on-site training facility, that is affiliated with the university where the doctoral students at the university come and start gaining experience, you know, and how to actually work with clients, how to start putting into practice this model, this Catholic Christian meta model of the person that they've been learning about, and what impact does that have practically speaking, and how you approach a client in a therapy session.
So I myself am actually a graduate of Divine Mercy University.
I was here from, 2010 to 2013 and graduated with my master's in clinical psychology and went on to become a licensed professional counselor, in the state of Virginia.
And I was prior to my position, as director of the IPS center, I was practicing as a licensed professional counselor at a mental health agency in my hometown doing a lot of general work kind of with clients, but specifically focused a lot on working with children and teens, you know, who might be experiencing emotional difficulties, trauma, stressful transitions, things like that.
You know, there's one other benefit that probably the biggest benefit I remember even when he was here as a student.
But, you also met your wife here while you were studying, didn't you?
Yes.
I did.
Yes.
My wife and I actually, were in the same class together, and we, we always joke.
It was one of the funny things was, in our child therapy class, which was taught by doctor Nordling, it's, you know, child centered play therapy is what we were learning how to do.
And so we joke that our relationship kind of, you know, grew from the the practice play therapy sessions that we were doing, in class together.
Yeah.
You're not the only one that's been it's one of the benefits here at DMU.
We've had several I mean, almost every year, there's a different couple that, times the knot because they've met here.
I don't know if it's all about doctor Nordling's class.
But you also now you have how many children right now yourself?
So I father of five children on earth, two in heaven, and my kids range in ages from nine to one.
So To one.
So Tom has seven children.
Ian's got five, two and seven.
And so I feel totally unqualified to participate in this.
I'm gonna let you guys discuss a little bit, child anxiety.
It's interesting you mentioned that.
I met my wife here when I anybody is, you you meet some wonderful people at Divine Mercy University.
So there's Yes.
You do.
Work here or you study here.
But children's anxiety, when I saw this topic, my interest immediately, peaked, because we've talked in our in our first podcast with you.
We talked a lot about, anxiety and stress and but a lot of focus on adults and what adults are experiencing.
Children, you know, I know from experience, it's it they live in different worlds and and and rightly so.
But just can you describe some of the, normal, children's anxieties that that they face and and how, some of them might become problematic?
I know that's a big question, but I'll I'll just let you go where you wanna go with that.
Sure.
Well, I mean, you're right.
Children do live kind of in in their in different worlds.
The the stresses, the anxieties that they experience are, not the same that we would experience as adults, but they're not immune to, the impact of well, really kind of what we've been going through.
You know?
So if you think about the past couple years, how there's been changes in structure and routine, There's been loss of life because of pan the pandemic.
Maybe there's uncertainty with jobs, finances.
Now we have in the midst of a war that's having worldwide repercussions.
So children and teens have not been immune to the effects of these events.
And, you know, even before the pandemic, the CDC noted, you know, that anxiety was on the rise, in children and teens.
So there are some that tend to be a little more, I guess, in in terms of what specifically, children might experience, with regards to anxiety.
Some of them are similar to adults.
So there's something called generalized anxiety disorder, which is kind of this almost excessive pervasive worry that occurs more often than more often than not, and it's kind of a vague, not really sure what it is that's, bothering me.
But there's also, one of the ones that's often seen in children, separation anxiety disorder, and that's a more marked and persistent fear that is, kinda, you know, more excessive, kind of unreasonable, about maybe the the loss of or being separated from those to whom the child is attached.
There's also, specific phobias.
Those might be more, you know, related anxiety or fear response that's tied to a specific object or situation.
So, you know, arachnophobia, the fear spiders sort of situation.
And then there's actually panic disorder as well, which is where you can have recurrent panic attacks, which is more defined as, like, this really abrupt intense surge of fear that kind of, like, reaches a peak within minutes and might look like, you know, pounding heart, sweating, you know, chest pain, kind of maybe a feeling of choking, numbness, feeling dizzy, or even abdominal distress.
And so these are some of the things actually that, you know, both children and teens can experience in response to some of the stress and anxiety that they've been experiencing in the past couple years.
One of the things I've noticed with my children, and something that was exacerbated during the pandemic is their reliance on electronic forms of entertainment and communication.
Certainly during the pandemic, you know, schoolwork my my children are homeschooled, but schoolwork, communication with relatives, cousins, friends, they really highly dependent on computers, different electronic, means.
I I call it jumping from screen to screen.
I think in moderation, maybe, but in excess, it can be a source of anxiety because they're not developing the, the relationships they that they should be maybe as as as children.
Can you speak to that a little bit?
That highlights, I think, two really important kind of dynamics.
On the one hand and and you're right.
Social media and just a general kind of we've been more plugged in as a culture over the past couple years, So there's this is getting exacerbated.
So on the one hand, it's very hard to read social cues when you're in an online interaction with someone.
So there's a lot that gets lost when you're interacting over screens or by text messaging or messaging in social media.
So that ambiguity and that, you know, kind of uncertainty breeds anxiety in our kids.
There's, especially as as they get older and towards teenage, you know, adolescence, there's they already have a a sense of maybe worry about how other people are going to perceive them.
And when they don't have that direct feedback that occurs in person, that can be exacerbated.
Now on the flip side, kind of one interesting dynamic that's been occurring as in some areas things have been loosening up and kind of getting back more into face to face.
There's actually more anxiety in face to face interactions because they've been relying on these forms of communication and interaction.
So anecdotally, for example, I was, talking to a a campus minister who said, you know, in talking with new college students who have been coming, they have difficulty maintaining eye contact.
Like, it's it's just the their anxiety in social interactions is very difficult.
And I'll talk to them about, oh, they they were having this conflict with their friend, and he's talking to them about it.
And it comes out.
He asks, well, did you talk to them?
And they said, oh, yeah.
But then come to find out that by talk, they actually meant text.
And so there's so much that gets lost.
Again, we we rely on our bodies to get that kind of direct feedback, But now having that direct feedback is a source of anxiety for children and teens as well because they're not used to how to navigate some of those situations.
I've definitely seen that.
Definitely seen that.
They're more comfortable in front of a screen than at times than being face to face with with others.
You know?
And Absolutely.
Being in front of a screen, if you're, you know, texting or messaging, it actually it requires less risk.
Like, making friends face to face requires more risk because, you know, there's that possibility that you might get rejected.
But on the other hand, like, that's actually that can actually be helpful.
You know, we learn then how to navigate.
Like, not everybody's necessarily going to like us, and and that's okay.
The the relationships that, occur on social media or online tend to be much more shallow.
And so first off, like, there's, there's more of a sense of, like, maybe imposter syndrome.
You know, you present yourself kind of a certain way.
I wonder how many people like me or like kind of my page.
You know, what is my kind of, like, images presenting?
All of these are kind of, like, sources of anxiety when you're interacting on a screen versus when you're interacting in person.
And I'm thinking that, some of these, you talk about impersonator syndrome.
Mhmm.
The the what my children or other children are are seeing is is unreal, and their their expectations about themselves might be in reference to what they see.
So, you know, I'm not like this person who, might not really be what what they say they are.
You know?
And and and it's not a it's not a valid yardstick to measure oneself with.
You know?
It's not.
But it it you're exactly right.
It is what they go off of.
You know?
You can have kids who agonize over what photos maybe that they're going to post to their social media account.
And then they're maybe scrolling through feeds, and it just adds more pressure to as you see others living, quote, awesome lives even if they're not, you know, it's, again, just the image that's kind of being presented, the snapshot that's being presented.
So that's one source that, again, of anxiety then of, like, you're kind of comparing and kind of trying to keep up or, you know, make yourself look like certain people.
But then the other way that that can contribute to anxiety is that kind of behavior and that dynamic can get very lonely.
Because then does anyone really know me?
Do they know the real me?
Or do they just know the image that I present?
And that in and of itself is a source of anxiety.
Like, what is the real me versus the image I present?
And I might not even really kind of know that.
What can parents do in that situation when you feel like would you if you recognize that maybe your children are getting kinda sucked into this, you know, Internet culture where some of these problems start to to happen, where they're, you know, you know, I want you easy thing is to say, well, just regulate, you know, how much they look at the computer and so forth.
But what when when this really starts to impact their self image and so what what what are good things for parents to do in that situation, you know, to help them have better real relationships?
So in in my work with parents, one of the things that I I always emphasize to them is you are the best intervention for your child.
And what I mean by that is the oftentimes, what is going to help them most is a relationship or connection with you, with their parent.
And not every kid or teen is going to like this, but that might mean carving out intentional time as a family, maybe with that particular child, you know, of, like, time with a parent, so that they can have an experience of we as parents kind of accepting and receiving them.
Look.
We just love you as you are.
Like, you don't have to be a certain way with us.
And then I think also, like you said, it's it's great.
It's a it's a tricky point, not always, or trying to navigate, you know, limiting the screen time, but we have to put something good in place when we take something out.
So what kind of what kind of other outlets or things am I encouraging, or facilitating, you know, in my child or teen?
You know, whether, again, that's family activities, whether that's activities in the community or church, you know, getting a job if you have a teen who's old enough, extracurriculars.
Things like those can be very important because they allow for the face to face interaction that often might be lacking, you know, in in the online world.
Ian, you're spot on.
I I have seven children.
I have age range 19 to four.
We have Okay.
Twin girls.
The lord surprised us with twin girls.
But they're they all all have different needs.
And, you know, it it can be it can be really challenging to spend time, quality time with with all of them because, you know, one wants to, go play golf.
One wants to build his go kart.
One wants to, do something else.
And my wife, you know, when when I'm when I'm thinking, well, I need to be doing this, you know, I've gotta finish this project.
My wife has reminded me, Tom, they are the project.
Just carving out quality time with each of them, listening to what they have to say because they wanna describe something they've done or something they're interested in.
That's the most important thing I can do.
Yeah.
It's time consuming, but I I I you're spot on, and you you they really respond to that type of attention, interaction, and affirmation.
So They really do.
It's, and that can maybe especially for for us, you know, if you got seven, five kids.
I mean, even if you just got three kids, you know, or two or one, it can be, wow.
I've got a like, how much time am I supposed to be kind of giving to them?
You know?
So I'll tell parents some is better than none.
And so if you can consistently kind of devote even, like, a ten or fifteen minute check-in a day Mhmm.
You know, I mean, I again, kind of, like, looking at step looking at studies that have been done or, kind of anecdotally.
Meg Meeker, I think, she's a a pediatrician, a doctor who works, you know, with with children and teens.
And she was talking with, I guess, one young girl who was telling about her experiences with her dad and how the dad one of her highlights would be that the dad would come in right before bed and just sit on her bed and talk to her for, like, ten or fifteen minutes.
And that would and then when talking to the mom, you know, she, doctor Meeker mentioned this, and the mom's like, oh, he only did that, like, a handful of times.
So I think that just goes to show, like, the impact that really being intentional about doing those check ins can be, and it it doesn't have to be a lot on our part.
One of the things that we did was we learned child centered play therapy, and we then approached our own kind of parenting and, of, like, okay.
Where each of our kids is going to have, quote, special playtime, which really is just being kind of in intentional about being present with the child and entering into their world.
And, Tom, as you were saying, affirming them, kind of learning maybe what's important to them.
And, yeah, it's it's it's been a huge blessing, I think, in in seeing our kids' development.
One thing I've noticed, when I was growing up, way back in the day, we didn't have a lot of social media.
We had, there were three television channels, VHS Yep.
VHF channels as as they said if I remember, and a few fuzzy UHF channels.
So there weren't a whole lot of television options.
So I remember spending so much time outside on my bicycle playing games, sports.
Just couldn't wait to get outside and to interact with my friends, peep people in the neighborhood.
That's all changed that we've discussed.
But one of the things, the, I think, the negative side effects of spending a lot of time in social media is kids are exposed to the news in ways that I was never exposed to growing up.
Serious things, they see it, War, all kinds of tragedies, you know, school shootings that they they find it.
They see it when they're in in the Internet.
You know?
It's it's a world in there.
And they're asked and so they're being exposed to things that cause anxiety.
And I I noticed my kids asking questions.
I don't remember ever thinking along those lines when I was growing up.
I I don't remember ever hearing about a shooting when I was young.
I don't remember hearing about, you know, a lot of lot of different things that our kids are being exposed to almost on a daily basis.
So how do, you know, how do parents navigate that?
You know, dealing with answering answering very serious questions, adult questions, children, you know, experiencing trauma, anxiety from from what they're experiencing in social media.
Yeah.
I I think that is really something that can definitely exacerbate, and it's it's definitely a new challenge.
I know even, my dad would comment about when he was growing up, you know, he'd he'd go out and he'd be out all morning, come back for lunch, and then go out for the rest of the day.
And for me, you know, I had to we had to have a conversation with my one daughter.
You know?
It was, like, a day or two after the war in Ukraine had started, and she learned about it.
And some of those things that you mentioned, like the, you know, school shootings, it's like they all of a sudden know.
So and that's unfortunately, I mean, even if you have kids who aren't connected themselves, like, I mean, maybe your kids don't have devices, maybe they don't have social media accounts, but chances are the kids that they're around you.
Mhmm.
And so you can't really control what they learn from other people.
So one of the best things that I found as, a parent is to first if we notice that our children are experiencing anxiety, really any strong emotion is to to listen to them and be with them.
This might seem too simple, but children and teens are often used to being talked at.
And so asking questions about what is bothering them, their thoughts, their feelings, and what is, you know, worrying them can allow them to express fears and concerns.
And then consequently, those fears and concerns seem less overwhelming because our children then experience our presence, and they don't feel isolated in carrying some of those problems.
That's helpful.
Also, I I noticed my children being aware of and asking questions about moral issues that I was not even aware of when I was growing.
You can go down to a list of the the different, hot button moral issues that adults are facing today, discussing today, etcetera.
Children aware of those, not understanding them, asking questions about them.
And I'm just wondering, you know, do you meet them at the level of their question, or is it something like, you know, you think, well, they're maybe they're not ready to to under to unpack this.
You know?
Is there any kind of way to gauge your response to those kind of, probing questions that you, you know, adults are wrestling with at this time?
Absolutely.
Right.
And I think that's, it's almost kinda like an ongoing assessment in a way that we're doing as parents, right, of, like, how much not only how much can our can we share with our children, but how can we respond maybe to some of the things that they're learning in in sort of, like, an age appropriate way too.
So I think I'd I'd like to maybe follow-up with so first, if we're going to sit and kind of ask them, you know, what's worrying or bothering them.
The second part, when they're coming to us with questions or concerns, I think, would be to validate their emotions or maybe validate the concerns that they're experiencing.
And so it can help to make empathic statements such as, okay.
You're really scared, worried, etcetera, because fill in the blank.
So statements like this, again, provide connection to the children who often feel alone, and they communicate to our kids that their experience is important to us.
So I know, like, with my own kids, when I start trying to fix a situation or kind of just provide too much information, I can actually they can end they can end up getting wound up.
And so that tends to be my first responses.
Alright.
I want to validate whatever the emotion or concern is that they're bringing to me.
And then after I've listened to and maybe sat with my my kids for a while, then I can provide information, answers, or, you know, possible solutions, you know, calmly, accurately in a way that's developmentally appropriate.
So that might take some assessment on our part as parents.
And so it is okay to also say to be upfront and say, you know, I don't have an answer to that.
But letting them know that you can find it find that out together if that would be appropriate.
And, I think there's there's some wonderful resources online about, you know, having conversations with having conversations with kids about different topics, whether that were the coronavirus or war, you know, or other sources maybe of anxiety as well.
But I would say that comes secondarily to the validating and showing empathy, because sometimes that's sufficient.
Sometimes kids kind of have a question.
And I've had my kids ask a question, and I give an answer, and then they're, oh, okay.
And they just go off.
You know?
And they're they're more kind of curious about having somebody who they can kind of let go to.