Welcome to everyone.
Good to have you all here.
Excited to have this time with one of our students, Matt Engold, who's in our program.
And that, you know, sometimes when we get on these webinars, we give an opportunity for our students or alumni just to get on and speak to you all about the experience of the program and what it's been like for them.
We just think that's a great opportunity.
It's a different way to speak about the program than just giving you data or information, just really having someone that's actually going through the program.
It's an incarnational experience as we might say.
So, well, let's get started.
There is a question and answer box on the webinar.
So if you have any questions, just put them in there.
And when we get done with interviewing Matt, we'll we'll head over to those questions, and Matt and I will take a, go at them to answer them.
We hope this is a good and informative time for you and also gives you just a sense and flavor of what the program is all about.
So we're happy to have you here, and welcome to this time that we have together.
So, Matt, as I said, is one of our students here in the program, and he has, you know, so graciously accepted to allow me to interview him tonight and to talk about the program.
Matt is a dad and a businessman, and really has you know, from his own experience of coaching, I think that's where kind of this interest came.
Matt, you can tell us a little bit more about yourself just to get the conversation going.
Sure.
I first of all, I always found myself on the, I guess you could say the seeking the seeking end of spiritual direction.
I always wanted it.
I knew people that had spiritual directors.
I envied them, and, I they always seemed unattainable to me.
And then at some point in a time when I really needed them, I had two at the same time, and it was, and it was phenomenal.
I I'd gone to the Theology of the Body Institute.
It was right after I got home from Afghanistan.
I was a marine, deployed, got home, went right to TOB, and I met these two phenomenal priests.
And, one was younger and one was, much older.
And he would go and he'd actually, would do spiritual direction for a priest in Omaha.
And, I just started to experience for the first time somebody just guiding me along in my faith journey.
And, it was never like a a very, I guess you could say, official spiritual direction.
But these men, these priests just made themselves available to me, and it was a time when I was really discerning my own vocation.
And so that was this very a very powerful time to be on the receiving end.
One of those priests that at first when I was I was discerning my vocation, perhaps a call to the priesthood at that time, ended up marrying my wife and I, a few years later.
And so, what a gift.
But, yeah, I the interest in in spiritual direction was something certainly that budded there, and I had such a great experience of it.
But then there was a bit of a drought for me when we moved back up to New York, and up in Upstate New York, Diocese of Albany actually just declared bankruptcy.
They're just having a very difficult time getting vocations, and so our priests were just so strapped.
And there wasn't a whole lot of other people, at least on my radar in the lay community that were offering spiritual direction.
And so I saw this really as a poverty and even as a director of religious education at time at a time for my parish, for a couple of years, recognizing that there's just a lack of well formed formators.
And it didn't matter what kind of program you put in front of people.
If you didn't have a well formed formator that was there to deliver it, it was it was going to fall short because programs don't deliver.
You need to have a well formed formator, especially if you're doing anything like human formation.
And so recognizing that poverty and recognizing I had a desire to be in kind of this helps profession.
I'm a coach.
I'm a life coach.
My wife and I started a a Catholic coaching company called Metanoia Catholic where Catholics can come and receive the benefits of personal development without being afraid of being led astray subtly by a lot of the secular humanistic and new age influences that are found often in the personal development world.
I I I saw an opportunity here to kind of grow a little bit more, and really that was the impetus behind it.
Like, I wanted to be a better coach.
I wanna be more formed.
I never had gone to school like my wife had.
She's got a theology degree.
I'd never had that type of formation.
Certainly, a lot of my cell formation and and theology of the body institute, but I I wanted more formation.
And that's kind of what peaked it.
And it was it wasn't even like I wanna be a spiritual director.
I feel called to be a spiritual director if I'm being honest.
It was something where it's like, I I want to I wanna know a little bit more about this this discipline that is is been kind of mysterious, but there's some attraction to it.
I guess that's kind of where it started.
Mhmm.
That's so interesting.
Well yeah.
And it seems so natural.
Like, if you're in the coaching business, and that's kinda where you've been drawn to it, which is, you know, helping people grow kind of in there, like you're saying, in human formation.
Spiritual direction has a lot to do with that.
They're kind of, like, you know, great partners to have, I would imagine.
You know?
Having a coach, but also having a spiritual director, maybe a different person or something like that.
But I can see how you would be interested in spiritual direction.
And, also, like, so many of the people that come to our program, they've experienced the benefit of spiritual direction.
And they just thought, you know, I myself, you know, that's kind of how I get into this field too, just being like, I need a spiritual director, and I can't do this life just by myself trying to figure this out.
And, and then god's design.
Yeah.
Exactly.
By design, you can't do it yourself.
And that was another thing.
I was just trying to find as I was we're benefiting from the coaching and and our Catholic faith being so important.
It was like, okay.
Are we just reinvent with Catholic coaching, are we just reinventing spiritual direction?
And And so that was kind of the question.
It's like, what's the distinction?
Even when I went to the first, the first residency at DMU, I was wrestling with that big time.
And I don't know if you remember, but I was just I remember, talking with some of the instructors and kinda going back and forth.
And I remember Yvonne, one of the instructors kind of catching me staying very cerebral.
And she was like, man, I want you to deepen.
I want you to go deeper.
And that was, like, the beginning of where I started to see the spiritual direction, but certainly a distinction.
And really where I've arrived at is the goal of coaching is getting people into movement.
The goal of spiritual direction is getting people into rest, like a deep rest where you're encountering, and it's perfectly active per you're encountering Christ is perfectly active, perfectly passive.
And it's really entering into that beautiful Marian posture, and you're going much deeper than, and and even on, like, an an area that's below the subconscious, dare I say, where the lord is just working in us in very mysterious ways, where he has increased, we have decreased, and it's not even fifty fifty.
It's like we're going to a place where it is all the Lord encountering us.
And, it that place of rest is a a place I'm realizing a lot of my clients, even on the coaching side, they desire that.
Mhmm.
They desire it.
They need it.
Yeah.
It's more human than being in movement, being at rest.
Yeah.
It definitely makes me remember.
I'm I know that I don't have this.
I I'm gonna say Saint Augustine says, you know, god is more is more more central to us than our very heart or more deeper to us in our very heart.
And when the catechism speaks the catechism of the Catholic church speaks about the role of the spiritual director, they really say that they're, you know, that they are leading us in prayer and leading us, you know, into the heart.
Right?
So I think that's kind of what you've been saying.
Well, thanks so much, Matt, and we're gonna have a great conversation here.
So let let's get into some of the questions just to get a sense about the program.
Right?
Sure.
Yeah.
Let's do it.
So, so you already talked to us about what drew you to the program.
And, you know, just in general, what's been your experience in the program?
Just as a general question.
We're gonna deep dig dig.
Sure.
We'll we'll always deepen, right, with spiritual direction.
I I've really enjoyed it, and I I'd say the residencies have been my favorite part.
That was, you know, distance learning has it comes with its challenges.
For a while, I felt somewhat, like, disconnected from the cohort, that I was going through.
And then once I and I deferred a couple of times, and, just just to kind of, you know, took a couple of breaks.
But then once I I met up with that group, that cohort, and I was with them in person, I was like, I wanna stay with these people because you really there's a bond there in the residency.
Yeah.
That's so true.
And, and I think that's a common response that people make, you know, that the residency is really just Mhmm.
Make it click a lot more, that that bond.
Even though you do get to know each other through the platform, but it's different.
It's just different.
You know?
Yeah.
Or is it different?
And then when you start doing the the asynchronous sessions together and you're you're directing one another back and forth, those are some intimate conversations even when we're working with the verbatims.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So, you know, you said that you were just kinda drawn to the program to just to get to know spiritual direction more.
But are you feeling as you're going through the program, are you feeling a call to yourself to this ministry?
And Yeah.
Yeah.
It's it's it's it's finding it's creating space for it in my life right now.
We're we're I'm in Ave Maria, Florida, and so we've got AMU Ave Maria University right in our backyard.
And, I had an opportunity to actually go and speak to, a group of the young men, recently, just last week.
And, I just felt drawn to that campus, and, I was able to, like, petition to to start doing some direction on campus and just got approved by the president there to do some, work on campus.
So, like, I I'm so excited about that.
And so I feel drawn specifically to that group of young men in in in college here in AMU, our backyard right now.
That's beautiful.
Yeah.
You've got that opportunity right there, and that's kind of, I think, how it is.
It's not you know, I was just working with the students that are finishing the certificate now, and we're we just finished that course a couple weeks ago.
And that's one of the things we were talking about that it's not just even being feeling drawn to spiritual direction, but also to who a certain group of people, you know, in a certain time or a period to be accompanying them or, you know, or individuals.
Right?
Right.
Company those individuals.
Mhmm.
Indeed.
Yes.
Yep.
So so, what is something that you discovered as you've gone through the spiritual direction certificate about spiritual direction that you didn't know before?
It was it was, the deepening work.
And, in coaching, we've done you know, we we we deepen into emotions, we process emotions, we see the value in emotions, But oftentimes, we're staying kind of at a cognitive level where people have, you know, a lot of conscious control of the thoughts that they're thinking.
Okay?
So we're taking those thoughts captive to obey Christ.
But it and the coaches is involved even though it's kind of 90% the the client, 10% the coach.
But stepping into that place where it's just like, no.
You it's it's a 100% the client, 100 God doing the work, and you're just kind of, like, facilitating.
That that was a stretch for me.
And even even in the sessions kind of starting to and and starting to direct people, starting to see, like, witness that sacred that sacred relationship that you're just kind of sitting there and you're observing.
It's it's very holy ground in spiritual direction.
And it's something where where I have something to deal that's, you know, I'm a cleric personality.
I like to take control, and and to kind of be in that place where I must decrease, he must increase, and kind of step back.
That was that was learning for me.
But in doing that, it created the space that I hadn't before to really see something, like, divine taking place, a divine connection taking place, between the direct ye and our lord.
Yeah.
So it is it is such a sacred space.
And, so I think let me let me just explain a little bit about what we kind of how we teach spiritual direction here kind of not because it's more kind of like the method, right?
Like that you've been referring to, right?
It's often called the contemplative evocative method, or the Ignatian method of spiritual, spiritual direction.
Even though you know, the pro our program is not specifically nation.
We just try to take from all the different, you know, great resources and authors in the church.
But it's basically a situation or where we try to create a prayerful environment in the spiritual direction session.
And then through questions, or reflecting back to the directee, allowing them to enter into their interiority, into that interior space where we know that the lord dwells so that they can encounter the lord and, get maybe get a greater clarity of where the lord is at work in their life.
You know, having giving them the opportunity to glimpse that narrative, that story that the Lord is is carrying forward in their lives with them and with their cooperation and collaboration.
So, as you were saying, Matt, I find it to be a very gentle and beautiful way of, you know, leading a spiritual direction session.
And I've had beautiful experiences just like you.
I've just, seeing the person really being touched by the Lord or, just getting greater clarity about where the Lord is actually working.
You know, and and, and that's so much of what Saint Ignatius has always talked about.
And even, you know, even some of the Carmelite, writers, Saint Teresa of Avila too and Saint John of the Cross.
You know, I was just reading Saint John of the Cross because I chose him to be my companion during Lent this year, and he really says, oh, you know, just listen, listen, listen.
As a spiritual director, listen, and and the Lord will speak.
And, so he did a lot of deep listening himself, which is has made me even like him even more recently.
Yeah.
You gotta do your own work as a director, and and it's like I I realized that that this has also drawn me deeper into my own contemplative prayer life, being a part of this.
Is because as a director, you you really have to go you have to go first, and you have to I think I think you have to experience that for yourself.
Not that it's you that's giving it, but it's you that's recognizing how good this place of contemplation is that you're you don't wanna you don't wanna mess it up.
You don't wanna you just wanna create that space.
Like you said, create that environment that allows that person, that inclines that person to enter in to that sacred space.
And that, you know, just that whole trust, building up that trustful relationship and stuff like that so that the person really can feel that they can enter into their interior and share share with you what they feel like is going on there.
Yeah.
It's deep stuff.
It's vulnerable.
It's vulnerable, but it is beautiful.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
And, you know, it's just such a help for us.
Right?
I know I can speak from my own experience of having a spiritual director.
So, Matt, so what do you think has been the most difficult for you in this program?
Has it been the I I mean, it's like it's from from me personally, it's like which hat am I am I wearing, and it's trying to draw the distinction because it's it's kinda I I liken it to, you know, being in the Marine Corps whenever we go out to the rifle range, all the all the all the coaches on the rifle range would say, you know, we hate working with people that have been, you know, shooting their whole life because they got all kinds of bad habits and all kinds of or just habits that are built up that aren't necessarily in line with the fundamentals that we teach.
We love having somebody that just they've never picked up a gun before, and so we can really teach them how to shoot that rifle well.
I was kind of like the guy showing up, I think, with that Kentucky windage sort of experience of, you you know, I had an idea in my head of what direction was like.
And and so that that paradigm shift for me personally of of really, really like, you're creating a space and your hands are not involved in this and finding that balance too, where you're you're not, like, detached from what's going on there.
You're still you're still very present, yet you're you're so docile to the movements of the spirit, and you're you're just so good at holding the space, suspending judgment, just allowing whatever comes up to be there, and not trying to correct or not trying to, like, steer where you think it needs to go unless we're just bringing it back to this encounter with the Lord.
That's kind of where I see, like, kind of the guiding steps there.
So that I'd say that was the biggest challenge was just, I guess, kind of learning how, like, okay.
No.
There is a distinction between coaching and spiritual direction or counseling for those counselors out there in spiritual direction.
And and I remember I was searching for that.
I wanted to know because I wanna know where to draw the line, and I wanna know if it was they were distinct.
And folks, they are distinct.
They've got distinct motivations, distinct ends that they're seeking.
And, but they're great compliments as well.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Learning how to kind of it's almost like a dance when you're giving spiritual direction, learning how to kind of just know how to move Yeah.
And allow the holy spirit to be, you know, just to be aware, the presence of the holy spirit, both you and the director and just to try to, as you said, just to be docile there to move along.
So it does, you know, sometimes people will say, why is it called spiritual direction?
Are you really directing the person?
And I'm like, oh, well, I mean, God is directing the person, and you're really trying to be deeply listening to where God is directing the person and and ask the right questions and stop, you know, maybe stop the conversations at the right moments to help them maybe have a time of silence or, to just be like, oh, let's go back to that point that you mentioned.
Or, you know, there what were you feeling there?
What were you sensing?
Where did where did you find the Lord there?
Right?
So Yeah.
We're so frenetic.
Yeah.
Our culture, we're we're just so frenetic.
We're just constantly vibrating and kind of, like, so many distractions that that these these moments of the Lord speaking, they show up and we miss them.
And so if you're the director and you're you're listening in, it's like, I I I kinda think we need to go back to this.
And I had a I had a session recently where it was like, it was at that we started off, it looked like there was like a particular part that was a kind of like, took like a little mental, you know, dog ear to that conversation, like, maybe we might go back to that.
And then more things started to come up that said, let's go back to that.
And then I said, okay.
Can we go back to this?
And I'll tell you what, we just went back there, and the Lord had something very profound to give that direct to you in that moment.
So there is there is some direction in that case, but it's not me, my will, where I choose that it goes based on my human reason alone.
There's there's a docility that's there, and that's why it's so important for us.
I mean, we gotta have our own prayer life.
We gotta have our own direction, but we're we have to be receiving direction ourselves, of course, at the very least.
Mhmm.
Definitely.
Exactly.
You know, and I think that's a common experience that the students have going through the program that they besides the fact that they feel, you know, called to a deeper and in more intimate relationship with the Lord.
Right?
They do want they really say, you know, if I'm not talking to the Lord and listening to him, how am I ever going to help other people?
Forget it.
Yeah.
Forget it.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's a language.
The holy spirit speaks.
And and and the more we grow fluent in that language, the more we can we can just help our help our directees become a student of that language as well.
Mhmm.
Exactly.
So let's talk a little bit about the residencies.
I know that was kinda your favorite part.
I have a little thing here, that can explain a little bit kind of how they're set up so that people can see.
It's a four day.
You know?
Basically, you get there on a Wednesday evening for a meet and greet, and then you're in the residency until Sunday lunch.
And, it it goes through lectures in the morning for about an hour and a half, and then it breaks out into these these sessions like Matt was talking about where you do these scenarios or, you know, and and role plays with a faculty member.
And then, there's a little retreat on Saturday morning.
Just have some time of personal prayer, inquire for yourself, and then everything wraps up on Sunday, with evaluation, more time of personal prayer.
And each residency, there's two of them.
Each residency kind of has their final work that we want the people to do, whether it's a plan of how they're gonna take care of themselves as spiritual directors or or just a greater digging into kind of what their needs might be as a spiritual director.
That's something that they usually do in that time on Saturday.
So, They were great.
I'll tell you what.
We like, we had at our residency, we we had an impromptu in in the hotel in the hotel, like, dining area.
We had an impromptu healing prayer service that we did.
And so, with one of the preset was there.
And it was just it was so profound, like, getting getting together.
Certainly, just there's a camaraderie that happens when you start to be vulnerable in front of one another.
And these little side sessions that, Maria was talking about where we're going and we're actually kind of we're we're literally directing one another, in front of a a small group, and and, we're growing together.
It's it's vulnerable.
And so there's a bond that takes place there, but that was so special when we had that.
I'll always remember it when we had that prayer, impromptu prayer session right there in the hotel, and people are coming in.
They're going, what's going on over here?
You know?
Mhmm.
But it was there was a deep bond that was there.
Mhmm.
It was really special.
Yeah.
And and you you might be able to see with the pictures.
I mean, it's just a group, you know, it's a group of all different types of people, men and women, priests, deacons, sisters, consecrated men and women.
There are some protestants, Catholics.
It's really anyone that is wants to learn within this tradition.
So it is a really rich group, and and although the majority of the people tend to be about, you know, forties, fifties, sixties, there, you know, there's a wide range of ages.
And there's definitely people that are, you know, in their thirties too that are going through the program.
So it is a beautiful experience, and it allows us, you know, in the program just to have some time with the students, with all of you to work on the skills.
You know?
But, you know, besides you watching videos and reading things and seeing that on the platform as you're going through the courses to actually sit down and have faculty members sitting with you and giving you feedback about, okay, this, why don't you try this?
Or you're doing that, but you're you're falling into problem solving mode or you're not, you're not picking up on what they're actually saying, you know, just to kind of how to sit with a person and be aware of everything, you know, their physical presence, their words, everything that they're presenting in that moment, of course, with the help of the holy spirit.
And that's where and and it's everything that you were just saying there, Maria, is is where I really started to learn what spiritual direction was and what it was not.
I I I again, my biggest thing, I went in here with this conception based on my own soda straw experience of direction of what it was.
And it was like there was there was some really good boundaries.
And I remember, Yvonne, like, I always I remember her just stopping me.
Like, and me thinking I was doing a great job in this this one point in the session.
And it was just kinda like, what?
What's going on?
She's like, you you keep staying very cognitively.
We wanna go deeper deeper.
And it's like a whole part of that first that first residency is about deepening into emotional experiences and and really going to that ground zero of where the Lord is waiting to encounter this directee.
And it's like, okay.
You know?
But so, yeah.
You show up to that first residency, just be ready to suspend any sort of ideas of what you might have or experience of what you have of of what spiritual direction can ought to be.
This is a this is a particular tradition that that, that we're getting trained in.
I don't really know many of the other traditions.
I love this though.
There's something that's just very, you know, he must increase, we must decrease that I think is this we need more of it in this world.
Yeah.
Thanks, Matt.
So, Matt, what was, what surprised you about your experience in the program?
Surprises.
I think I was I was surprised by the residency and I I have not done a whole lot of retreats in a while.
I haven't retreated in a while.
And so just being around people that it's it's a regular part of their life to, you know, go on retreat, and then enter and retreat with those people, that was I I just it was it was more of a surprise of, like, I I need this.
I need this more.
And, you know, part of the part of the, certification is is you need to either go on an Ignatian retreat or you have to do the, the nineteenth annotation.
And I hadn't been on an Ignatian style retreat in a while.
I looked them up, but I didn't even know what the nineteenth annotation was.
I I mean, I still could somebody asked me.
I was just like, okay.
It's just kind of a long concentrated spiritual direction, you know, over a couple of months.
I know.
But I was able to actually, through the program, I encountered someone who's now my spiritual director.
And, he is now getting skilled up in the nineteenth annotation to take me through the nineteenth annotation.
And that's something I'm just I'm super excited about.
So realizing how much I need to retreat and and also how much I need to make space for my wife for her to go on retreat.
And and we really need we've got a four year old daughter.
We really just need to to mirror this and exemplify the importance of retreating.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
That balance.
Right?
That balance.
Indeed.
Yeah.
Yep.
We've been talking about in different ways here.
Let's see.
So, Matt, you were a dad.
You're a husband.
You're a layman.
You know, what would you say to other laymen and women that are looking into this program?
Because, it's not that lay spiritual directors are new.
I always remind people, hey.
John Paul the second's first spiritual director was a layman.
You know?
And, and all the apostles all started out as laymen before they were ordained.
Right?
And the early desert fathers and mothers often were laypeople.
Right?
So this tradition of the lay spiritual directors is not definitely not a new one in the church, even though different times historically, priests have taken over this role.
Right?
But, now I think, you know, pope Benedict has some great quotes just about how every person that's really wanting to follow Jesus, that this be a disciple of Jesus should have a spiritual director and and how these this is really, you know, open for anyone.
So you're a layman.
What would you say to laymen and women that are maybe feeling a call or looking into the program?
Sure.
I mean, the first thing comes to mind is is everyone needs a spiritual director.
And maybe that's a provocative statement, but I'm gonna go ahead and say it.
I think everybody needs a spiritual director.
And if we're gonna say everybody needs a spiritual director or even 10% of the people out there need a spiritual director, maybe that's a little bit easier for somebody to believe.
Who's gonna do it?
Like, it's it's and and the Lord desires to to father this generation that's come in, mother this generation that's coming that's coming up.
And if you look to the, like, the state of the family right now, there is a need for spiritual fathers and spiritual mothers to really come forth and and steward this next generation that's coming up.
And so there's a little bit of a, if not you, then who that's there.
But so that's kinda like the marine in me that's that's moving forward.
But but also, like, take if you have any judgments of, like I know some people are very particular and saying spiritual direction should only be done by clergy.
Okay.
Alright.
You can have that thought.
You have to justify that thought, you know, because it doesn't say that anywhere else.
So if you're gonna stand and and that's gonna be you're gonna be the authority saying that's the case, then okay.
You it's it's on the burden of proof is on you for that, because tradition doesn't back that up.
So so, but if you just kinda suspend that and even suspend any of the thoughts of, like, well, who am I gonna do or how am I gonna do it?
Like, how I we always say this in coaching too.
How is the greatest dream killer question?
It doesn't matter.
It's none of our business, the how it's going to happen.
It's whether or not you've been called to do it.
That's the most important thing.
Is the Lord calling you to do this?
And only you with the Lord can answer that question.
And so that's really the only question that matters here.
Is the Lord calling you to do this?
If the answer is no, then doesn't matter DMU, any other program that's out there.
He's not calling you to do this.
But he's calling you to do this, that's step one.
And the invitation say yes to that.
It's like, okay.
So then next step is like, what what's the practical next step for that?
I the my practical next step was going to the DMU website and reaching out and checking it out and having a conversation with my wife and saying, is is this something that you're willing for me to invest in me going through this?
And she said, yes.
And it was like a full yes.
It wasn't a reluctant yes.
It was a full yes.
And we felt that peace that surpasses all understanding, and we move forward not fully understanding what you're getting into.
But typically, when you start something new, that's usually the case.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So true.
And that's the beauty of it too.
Right?
God has a lot of treasures that he's gonna be giving you along the way.
You know, we'd we'd be foolish to think if we don't, we would be able to understand everything from the get go.
That's for sure.
Yeah.
Because there's so much of the you know, Saint Paul says that I has not seen your ear heard what God has prepared for those who love him.
And I always try to remind people that, you know, maybe Saint Paul's not just talking about heaven.
You know?
Maybe he's talking about the way that our plans unfold in our lives too.
Indeed.
Yeah.
So well, I did wanna leave some time here from some questions at the end, but let me see, if there's anything else here, Matt, or, if there's anything else you just wanna share.
You know?
I I've been riddling you with questions.
So if there's anything you else wanna share, I think, you know I mean, I I I loved another thing I loved about the program was being exposed to so many, so many great writers and works that I I just never would have picked picked up myself.
Ralph Martin's The Fulfillment of of Desire was just like it just it rocks my world because it was so pithy.
It had so much from these mystical doctors of the church.
And it was a book that I'd seen before, and I was sitting on the shelf of my parents' house.
And I just diving into that, and it's it was just it was at a time in our life my life also, where my wife and I were starting to do a lot of the research into, like, okay.
Can coaching really be something that's Catholic?
And we started to see a lot of everything that we loved in coaching echoed already in the mystical doctors of the church, and there was such alignment that was there.
And, and, yeah, that even even the the meta model, you know, the DMUs, cap Catholic Christian meta model, the person, like, that that ontology is is the antidote to the new ontology that is being pushed in kind of the woke movement.
And I remember there was a speaker who said that I I I listened to recently.
And, Michael Mattson Miller, I think is his name.
And he said that the biggest danger is is the new ontology that's being pushed.
Well, like, we that's why the meta model is so so it's so essential.
It's it's we have a certification program for our Catholic coaching and, like, the meta model and a lot of the works that those mystic psych philosophy of psychology that's in there, that's that's the backbone.
And and people hear that, and they love it.
It resonates in them.
And so we need people that are somewhat fluent, and and I'm using big words here.
Right?
Forgive me.
But, like, we need people that are fluent in this ontology, just in fluent in god's design, right, is is what we need to be able to respond when they see somebody acting outside of it, to be able to invite them to step back into it.
Yeah.
And to the richness of it.
Right?
Yes.
And that's what you know, you mentioned theology of the body, but, you know, when John Paul the second starts his catechesis on, that are now called theology of the body, he says that he is trying to kind of rearticulate an understanding of the human person for today's for today's person.
He really felt like the need, almost like you you are experiencing or you experienced.
Right?
And at the the university, I mean, that's the real reason also that the university, Divine Mercy University, was founded because psychologists were Catholic and Christian psychologists were saying, you know, psychology is getting hijacked by secularism and people that don't believe in the Lord.
And, faith and reason always go together.
So there has to be a way that this all can work out together.
And that's, you know, the Catholic Christian Meta Model of the Human Person, which is the book that the university just published after twenty years of working.
Twenty years.
Yeah.
And taking Thomistic philosophy, taking, some some things from John Paul and personalism and just saying, this is the beauty of the human person, rearticulating it and then making that articulation within the world of psychology and showing how faith and science actually work together.
Right?
Yes.
Which we know, from the church's teachings and the documents, but to actually see it applied to the world of the human sciences has been beautiful.
Yes.
And you have to start there.
I mean and then I I remember going to the TOB Institute, Christopher West saying, there are two questions that JP two was seeking to answer.
What does it mean to be human?
That's number one.
And then based on that, how do we live our life in a in a way that brings about true happiness?
So we got a theology of the body, what does it mean to be human, and certainly that Catholic anthropology that's there.
But then we got this personalism in the response to the second question.
How do we live our lives in a way that builds brings about true happiness?
And when you call people into that ethic, it again, it resonates because it it's it you create an environment that is conducive to who they actually are, and they just feel at home for it.
And and I think a lot of the time, even people that are Catholic by name, right, or Catholic by tradition, they still don't know the anthology.
They still haven't experienced it.
And so we need people that are going out that are disrupting the mediocrity in the church and bringing the truth and the beauty and the goodness of this Catholic anthropology out to people.
Spiritual direction is a is a tremendous means of getting it out there.
Yeah.
Yes.
Thanks so much.
So, Matt, before we go on to the questions of the panelist, did you wanna just speak a little bit, about your organization, what you do, and maybe even pop into the chat your, your website?
Sure.
I can do that here.
Let me just get it real quick.
Because I I just think it's a, you know, it's it's, great what you're doing.
Some people might be interested in looking for a follow-up for something.
Sure.
I'll put it in there for everyone.
And that's us.
So, we we bought the domain catholiccoaching.com after we realized that nobody knows how to spell metanoia Catholic.
There you go.
But but that's that's the that's the name of our of our company.
It's called Metanoia Catholic.
Metanoia being that first imperative in the gospel.
Mark one fifteen, repents, metanoia, and believe the gospel.
And so, as mindset coaches seeing that, the person is transformed not by the renewing of behaviors, but by the renewing of the mind, that's really where we live and we experience such freedom in being able to take all those thoughts captive to be brought into obedience to Christ, second Corinthians ten five.
And, teaching people that the thought life that they have, eventually, those words become flesh.
Right?
We are just incarnation machines.
We don't get to choose whether or not we make words flesh, but we do get to choose which words we make flesh.
So Philippians four eight, we wanna think on all those good things, those noble things, and we wanna have our minds really operating from truth.
And so, we do this, we deliver our work through really two means.
We coach and then we train other Catholic coaches.
And so we've got a, for those that are seeking coaching, we have an online coaching membership.
It's a group coaching.
It's called the Metanoia Catholic Academy.
We do group coaching.
We do work workshops in there.
There's one on one coaching opportunities that are in there.
But it's a fantastic community for Catholics who love personal development that again wanna be in a place where they can be an integrity with their faith and not being afraid of being led astray.
And then some people, even those people in the academy, eventually, they desire to accompany other people along on the journey.
They wanna up level their skills.
And so we have our coach training program where we teach really accompaniment and something called Catholic Coaching Foundations.
That's where you get really our fundamental lessons of that lay that Catholic anthropology and give that coaching ethic based on that Catholic anthropology.
So there's a lot of lessons and then there's some skills and some workshop training we give you.
So people leave there.
They're able to give workshops on temperaments.
They're able to give workshops on our reason cycle, which is foundational coaching process that we have.
And then there's another one called the unique call to sanctity, which is really understanding God's design specific to that person, their unique calling in life, and helping them understand and to claim their God given name.
And then those people that really want to to be professional coaches, we have a six month certification program called Pathic Coaching Certification.
And, that is just where you are you are growing competence.
We are drilling into my military style that's coming in here again.
But it's it's like wax on, wax on, wax on, wax off of coaching.
We break down all of our coaching concepts into to really manageable drills and people grow in the competencies.
So when they go out and they coach, they're coaching from a a place of fluency.
And, again, everything rests on the shoulders of our Catholic anthropology, JP two's personalism in there as well.
And we we're on a mission to be the gold standard of Catholic coach training here by 2025, and we love getting our coaches out there.
So we have actually, a closed cart for not that I'm trying to sell anybody right now, but we actually have our first certification our second, excuse me, cohort that is starting, this spring.
And so we've got 30 people signed up.
Please pray for them.
Yeah.
They're about to step off on a journey.
And a lot of them think they're just me learning skills.
No.
We're gonna be going deep because we go first.
Right?
We got them beam and splinter work, folks.
We gotta remove those beams first before we can help gently, remove the splinters from our brother's eyes.
So true.
Thanks for that, Matt.
You bet.
Thanks, Mary.
Linda.
To those, let's go to, I'm gonna put up this information just if anyone wants it, which is just kind of how to get in contact with our admissions adviser.
And then let let me move to see if there's any questions.
And if there are any questions people have, please feel free to put them in.
Sure.
And I'm gonna throw in one more link.
I'm just gonna throw a link to our podcast there as well.
Okay.
So we've got two podcasts.
One's called the Catholic Coaching podcast, and one's called living in the virtue of your strengths.
And that's where, that is where we are, built building on Clifton strengths.
So I'm a certified strengths coach as well.
Great.
So there's a question here from Tony saying, how has this helped you help others?
You wanna go first, Matt?
Then I'll answer.
Sure.
It it's helped me to to see the other person.
And that may not seem very profound, but it it's helped me to have a greater reverence for the person.
And I and and a lot of that is coming by way of the education and just the immersion and then also experiencing being seen by other people at the residency.
I remember hearing a story.
It is like it haunts me in the in the best of ways that John Paul the second, the most seen person by eyes, like, in person seen by other people in history that we know of.
He would he would look out over these seas of people.
And rather than just seeing a a mass of people, I I heard he would look and he would contemplate the mysterious ways that God's grace was acting in each person.
Mhmm.
And that sort of contemplative approach to the person, if everybody had that, it it would be thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So it helps you see other people.
Yeah.
Definitely.
I definitely agree with that.
Now I've definitely had that experience too.
And, and hopefully give that person the experience of being seen.
Right?
Mhmm.
So that they can start to, imagine what it means, you know, even through an analogy.
Imagine what it means to be seen by the board.
Right?
And maybe even experience that in their prayer.
Mhmm.
So one of the other questions was about the practicum.
Someone was asking us about here about the practicum hours, the sixty hours of practicum and the supervision.
So let me explain that a little bit to you.
So there is a sixty hour requirement, a practicum requirement, and that is really made out of forty eight hours of seeing people in spiritual direction and twelve hours of supervision.
The supervision is actually given to you in the fifth and the sixth course by the instructor.
So those those hours, you don't have to go look for a supervisor.
The supervisor is your course instructor.
Right?
So you fulfill those twelve hours as you go through the course.
And after the residency, the second residency, which is the 500 course or the fifth course, we tee you up so that you can start p seeing people in spiritual direction.
And then we have a log sheet where you go in and log your hours.
And, Matt knows about this very well because that's where he is right now.
So you go in and you log your hours, and and, it keeps track of how many hours you're you're logging so that you're able to see, you know, when you get your forty eight hours.
So that's really how that works.
And you're you're in classes for a majority of that time, so you're getting feedback about your work with your directees.
And then we do if you do finish classes and you haven't finished your practicum hours yet, we do have a practicum course that you can sign up for where you continue receiving supervision and feedback as you're in the end this time of training.
Let's see if there's another question.
Does spiritual direction and counseling overlap?
Are we trained to avoid this?
Yes, sister Anne Marie.
Thanks for that question.
You are I mean, in our first course, the 100 course, we really try to explain to you the place of spiritual direction and kind of the space it has.
And we do a comparative chart between spiritual direction and other helping professions or ministries.
And that's where we talk about what's the nature of counseling, coaching, therapy, right, and how spiritual direction we really simply define spiritual direction as, you know, accompanying someone in their relationship with the lord.
We know that the human person has a lot of different dimensions, so you can't just kind of, like, weed out their relationship with the lord and not pay attention to their other dimensions, right, that make up this beautiful thing, which we call humanity.
Right?
The human person.
But, so there are times where you might be like, gosh.
It seems like that I'm kinda problem solving for this person, or I'm giving them a little catechesis about something, or I'm, where I feel like I'm just listening and spending time with them.
And and it's healing.
Right?
So there are definitely moments that you can be like, well, this kind of feels like this or feels like that.
But the majority of the time as a spiritual director is really helping that person to see the Lord at work in their lives and to deepen in their relationship with the Lord.
And, you know, what Saint Ignatius often speaks about about, you know, unmasking the devil and allowing the presence of the Lord to shine forth.
You know, that transfiguration experience almost.
Right?
So, you are trained to stay in your lane, as we say, and, know that you're not being trained as a counselor or a psychologist or even as a coach.
Right?
So you can't be doing those things.
And we also, train you in recognizing and referring when the person might need, a coach, a therapist, you know, some mental health work, whether it's for, you know, something very critical or, you know, something that just might need a little bit of help.
But yeah.
And to feel very, familiar and fine at referring people to other experts and feels that you're not an expert.
Do you wanna say anything about that, Matt?
I I mean, it it we can I I'd I feel a lot better about where the lines are?
It's it's with with, spiritual direction and counseling, certainly with coaching and and spiritual direction.
And I think there's even a there's a question that just popped up about that.
And And so if if you don't mind if I I feel that because I've Yeah.
I've been wrapping my head around this one for the last three Yeah.
Because I three years.
Right.
So difference between spiritual direction and a Catholic coach.
Okay.
So I look at things on on a continuum.
Right?
A Catholic coach acknowledges that, okay, yes, there's practical goals that we're working on on this side of heaven.
Alright?
So when somebody comes to me in a coaching relationship, at at the start of it, there's a goal.
And the goal isn't an ideal.
The goal is a tangible goal we know when we arrive there, and and it's hard to have a coaching relationship without a goal.
Like, it's it's hard to to enter into a, you know, even on the on the athletic field.
Right?
You you get an Olympic coach.
Why?
Because you have a goal of winning the Olympics.
Okay.
So and that coach is skilled to help you navigate the journey to winning the gold medal at the Olympics.
And so when you enter into a relationship with a coach, you're getting on you're you're join getting in a relationship with somebody that can take you on that journey to a specific goal that's there, and that goal is on this side of heaven.
As a Catholic coach, we wanna make sure that your goals on this side of heaven are nested on the road to beatitude.
Right?
And so we wanna make sure that they're helping us grow in virtue, and they're helping us grow in in in grow in holiness and and avoid sin in our life.
And so that's something where it kind of governs the ethic of how we operate being a Catholic coach.
But, we're looking at goals on this side of heaven.
Spiritual direction, you are looking to bring heaven here.
Like, you're looking to encounter the Lord here.
And it's it goes back to what I said in the beginning.
Coaching is really about getting people into movement.
Spiritual direction is about getting people into rest.
Right?
Resting in that presence of the Lord, bringing thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, and and meeting him in that's that quiet room, that inner room that Christ talks about in the scriptures where we go in there and we close the door.
That's where we're seeking to rest in the Lord, and we're seek that's our destination with spiritual direction.
And it's a mysterious path that we're not the experts in.
Like, the coach is an expert in how to get to goal a, you know, a very tangible goal.
But But the holy spirit is the only expert in how to get somebody into that interior room.
And so coach is a lot more the expert, but spiritual direction, like, you're backing off big time, and you're making room for the holy spirit to really do the work.
Mhmm.
Does that help, Maria?
It does help me.
I think it does, Matt.
And, you know, and I think when I've talked to pea people that are Catholic or Christian coaches, had a couple conversations with people about this too, and and that's where we you know?
Spiritual it's not that coaching is not a sacred space, but spiritual direction really has that purpose of trying to get the person in contact with the Lord.
I would think that coaching, you know, has you're you're, you know, you're trying sometimes you're dealing either with helping them problem solve some different situations that have happened or even time management or I don't know, different things like that.
Whereas spiritual direction is really that contemplative sacred space where the person and you, they're walking along with the Lord.
I love the image of that walking along to the road to Emmaus.
I feel like that's Jesus there just giving spiritual direction to these two and walking along with them.
Right?
So Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's a there's a great compliment in in all of it in, I think some somebody I'm looking at I forgot what I was gonna say because I just got a notification saying I have a low battery on my computer.
It's like, I gotta plug in.
I should've done that in the beginning here.
No.
There's there's a great compliment complementarity, I'd say, that the counseling and spiritual direction and the coaching and spiritual direction.
I I think that coaching and counseling really operate in that human formation pillar.
Spiritual direction is that spiritual formation pillar.
Right?
Yeah.
But there's those four pillars that John Paul the second outlines in Pastoris Dava Vobis, one of his letters in back in 1992.
And and oftentimes, I've heard spiritual direction saying, I find myself doing human formation work, which is like teaching somebody how to think about their thinking, teaching somebody not to be afraid of their emotions, teaching somebody that their emotions aren't something that they need to dismiss or, like, have all of these judgments about, but, like, they're they're data, not directives.
Right?
Until they pass through direct through reason, then we can use them as directives.
Mhmm.
But that human formation element really it enhances the experience of of the directing and the director relationship.
Because now, like, when somebody has that level of maturity in a human formation aspect, they're really primed to get a lot more out of the spiritual direction because their mind is cleared up.
They've got a little bit more willpower and custody of their mind, custody over their emotions, and understanding of, like, what it means to be a human person.
And now we're bringing that nature for grace to build upon in the spiritual direction relationship.
Exactly.
And you know what I was also thinking too, and we'll wind up here.
I'll listen and plug in my computer.
Okay.
Is that there are people that are maybe don't have a prayer life started yet and haven't aren't ready for the commitment of spiritual direction and maybe need to do some, you know, human formation work, need to work on their own nature.
Right?
As Matt was saying, to allow the grace of God deeper into their lives and so aren't ready for spiritual direction yet.
And, whereas a Catholic coach, I think it could help them, you know, kinda till that soil to get them ready and to see you know, to take on that commitment, that spiritual direction.
Yeah.
We we literally have there was a coach that went through your program that's in one of our our our Catholic coaching foundations program now.
Or not a coach, there's a spiritual director that now is in our Catholic coaching form, foundations.
And there's another woman and we and the three of us, we were having a conversation on how great would it be to have a niche as a coach where you are just your niche is preparing people for spiritual direction.
Just laying the foundation, laying that human formation down for that grace to build upon.
We're like, woah, man.
We need that.
Definitely.
Because there are people that are yearning for our Lord, but they just they have a lot of difficulties just in their home, human we all do.
Right?
But maybe they've just they haven't been in a family or they haven't been in a community that's allowed them to grow the way that they've needed.
Yes.
So we've got a stop here because we're getting on to the hour.
There are two questions here.
Would this Romina is asking, would their certificate be beneficial for an educator at a Catholic high school?
It would be.
It definitely could help you just to know how to listen to students and, but it is definitely geared to forming someone and training someone to be a spiritual director.
So it might be a little bit more than you would need in just a Catholic high school.
We don't really deal with, like, working with minors.
We you know, we're talking about a spiritual direction relationship that's with adults.
So it might not serve you in that way, Romina.
Their parents need it, though.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Their parents need it, Romina.
Uh-huh.
Can the residencies be completed fully on Yeah.
The residencies, you have to come in, but everything else is can is fully online.
The residencies are the only times that you have to come in.
Well, we're right up against the hour here.
As you see on the screen, I've got our admissions adviser's information.
If you would like to get in touch with him, he would definitely, be willing to answer any questions for you.
And then if you do wanna apply, we do for those of you that have been on the webinar tonight, here's a code, s t c r e g free.
So s t c reg free, to waive the application fee.
So we just thank you for your time, Matt.
Thanks for coming on.
You bet.
Thanks for your time.
Conversation.
Thanks, Maria.
Okay.
God bless you all, and have a good evening.
Thank you.