Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast sponsored by Divine Mercy University.
My name is Thomas Kronquist, and I'm the cohost with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father Charles, how are you today?
I'm doing fine, Tom, and I'm really looking forward to this podcast.
And, tell us a little bit about what we're gonna talk about.
Well, we have a great podcast scheduled for this afternoon.
We'll be talking with doctor Frederica Vyvletschka, the director of our, counseling program, on the very important topic, addictions and substance abuse.
Doctor Vyvletschka, welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast.
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
Can you tell us about your background and how you, became involved with addictions and substance abuse?
It's a it's a huge problem, we hear a lot about.
Can you, tell us how you became involved with this?
Sure.
So I actually grew up in a family where addiction was prominent.
And then when I was a sophomore in college, I had to go to my family member's family week at a treatment center.
And, essentially, what they do there is they bring the family in, and you talk to the person who's an addict or an alcoholic about how their use affected you.
And when I was there, I said this is what I wanna do with my life.
I wanna be I wanna do whatever that lady's doing, and it was the counselor.
And so when I got my master's in counseling, I applied at treatment centers for my practicum and internship, and that's where it started and kind of went to different treatment centers and had a private practice for a while, and that's sort of been my focus ever since my specialty.
Wow.
And then now you're now you're forming new counselors in their counseling program, which is growing quite a bit.
Maybe just give us a little brief, intro.
How's how's the program going and and how are the students doing?
Program is growing immensely, and the students are great.
We have a I feel very blessed to work with the students we have.
It's like we get this special group of people every year, every semester actually.
And so the program looks, promising, and we are working on a CACREP accreditation.
There's lots of really neat things happening.
Quite a few students.
Like, we're I think we're around 250.
Is that right?
Yes.
And we started with not 250, so it's six years ago.
So it's been fast.
Yeah.
And and I know they they learn, you know, they learn the skills to help those with addictions and, and, substance abuse and so forth.
Maybe you start just telling us a little bit of what what in general, what is an addiction?
And and what makes yeah.
Just what what are the characteristics of that?
The easy, short ex explanation is continued use despite negative consequences.
So I tell my students because event they usually always have, well, how do you know if it's an addiction?
How do you know?
And I'd say, well, what is their what is their life look like when they're drinking or using drugs?
Is it good or bad?
And that's that's typically how you would know if someone's an addict or an alcoholic.
That being said, you can always use the DSM.
It's our manual for having to know what the criteria are on criterion are that fit fit the diagnosis.
But, essentially, I always say continued use of a substance despite the negative consequence.
Continued use despite the negative consequences.
Okay.
Is, I would imagine alcohol is one of the biggest substance abuses alcoholism is one of the biggest substance abuses, diagnoses out there.
Yes?
I think they're all pretty prevalent, but alcoholism is I would say it's the one in which people say, well, that's not me.
I'm not an alcoholic.
I don't live under a bridge, and I'm not homeless.
And in my experience, it's it's it's a difficult one to say, no.
This is a problem because it is culturally acceptable.
And and so it's very hard for people to get to a point people who have a problem with it to say they have a problem with it.
And it's so easy to to acquire alcohol, whereas other drugs might be more difficult.
Right?
Yes.
I think on on some level, any addiction, no matter what it is, there's a there's a level of secrecy that's involved even if you are able to gain access to that substance legally.
There for every person that comes in and says I have a problem with x, y, or z, there's some level of secrecy that they have to engage in in order to continue their use even when it's alcohol.
Can we drill down a little bit more on, you know, continued use despite negative consequences?
So because I I yeah.
It it makes total sense, right, that someone who might have a drinking problem doesn't wanna admit it.
If you're a loved one, like, what what kinds of things when is it too much?
And when would you or when should you at least bring this up with someone?
Like, what kinds of signs are you?
So I always tell people some people say, well, what's the, you know, what is the defining moment?
And I say, well, a person who is going to go down the path of a of a of a dependence on a substance will typically have an experience in their life where they use the substance, and they have a negative consequence, and there is a decision made there on some level to have denial minimize, rationalize what happened.
And it's at that point they step over into dependence.
Now that's that's the emotional, psychological part to it, I should say, and but that is also connected to an increase in tolerance.
So let's say the person drinks too much, gets in the car and drives, they get a DWI.
The person that goes, wow.
I probably should not drink and drive, and I had this many beers, and I'm not gonna do that again.
That's a person who's telling the truth and choosing a different path versus the person that says, well, everybody gets a DWI.
That's normal.
Joe got a DWI when he's 16.
He's fine.
That's the person that's sort of creeping more towards a substance use disorder because they're willing to rationalize something that's pretty bad.
When the person begins to rationalize that thing, they have to have an increase in tolerance, so they have to use more to get the same result of euphoria that they feel when they use.
So the people on the outside will notice this person's drinking more.
This person this person is not only drinking, but they've started to engage in other drugs.
That's a problem.
So those would be that would be sort of probably the first observable sign someone might see, especially someone close to the person.
And so what now all the there's so many different addictions out there, laundry list.
What are some commonality you you had your basic definition of the, you know, the continued use without a negative consequence and then sort of this rationalization.
And would that be something similar, say, if it's, obviously, drugs, I think, would be closer to alcohol, it would seem.
But things like, you know, phone addiction or gambling addiction or, you know, so many other kinds of problems.
Is it all does it usually work that way?
I would say that it it does, but it looks different.
And on some level, you have to also notice how much of how much of my time is this taking up.
And so that is another key aspect of any addiction.
How much of my time am I spending on the phone?
How much of my time am I spending worrying about how much I'm gonna exercise?
So someone with an exercise addiction or how much how much of my time is spent.
They call in with with the progression of a substance addiction, alcohol, drugs, the focus on how to obtain that substance.
So how that would look for exercise or for food or for, you know, phone is how there's a focus.
There's a significant amount of time spent trying to acquire the thing they're they want to the point where it's taking over their whole life.
So they're thinking about it when they wake up to when they go to bed.
Are there common, underlying causes for, addictions?
Or maybe the causes are myriad.
I alcohol, I think often stress, is is a cause for for, maybe alcohol abuse.
But are there do you look, in your counseling, do you look for the underlying causes?
And and and when you do, what what do you find?
I found that a lot of clients that I worked with that had a substance use disorder, there usually was a genetic predisposition somewhere.
So you would go down the line, and they'd say, I remember this, my grandfather.
We've got a cousin who's went to treatment.
We've got a and it was pretty close in regards to family.
So so meaning that if if it was a cousin, it wasn't a distant cousin.
It was, you know, your aunt's kid.
And so there usually was a a genetic predisposition, and it'd be interesting to hear the stories, excuse me, of people talking about who have a genetic predisposition, talking about their first drink or drug use.
The way they described it was significantly different than someone who doesn't have a problem with alcohol or drugs describing their first drink.
It it it was very different, and I'm someone that came from a family where there was alcoholism.
I never had a problem, and I was able to share, well, this is what makes you a little different.
This is you're viewing it this way.
You can recall your first drink and how it made you feel.
And people that are normal drinkers, they recall it, but it's not a prominent memory that they kind of fantasize about in a sense.
So then on top of that, there's there's sort of this cycle of the use is the drug and alcohol use tends to help the person avoid some sort of pain or suffering.
So I'm gonna use to avoid feeling.
It could be any feeling, but a lot of times, it's pain and suffering.
But some clients I had, they were very anxious, and the substance they use would help them with their anxiety, and then they became addicted to the substance, which in turn made their anxiety worse.
You mentioned, the tolerance levels go up, and then you look for a stronger or more quantity and stuff.
So that does do you find that alcohol can can then switch into drugs?
And among the drugs, you know, I've heard, you know, even with drugs, that, for instance, marijuana now being legalized in a lot of places that can be a gateway to more serious things.
Is that is that something to worry about?
And and, you know, and, how how can we help people who are in that kinda situation?
I would say you get two different types of, addictions.
So you you I I would have clients that focus solely on one, and they didn't they tried everything, and they liked just the one substance.
And then you would have clients that had something else.
They started with alcohol and moved on to marijuana.
Then it then went to then went to cocaine, then to heroin.
And the big thing was that because you have the propensity for a substance use disorder, even if you're only gonna choose one versus the person who did everything, the the possibility of you going to another substance thinking for example, the person that just likes alcohol.
They get sober thinking, well, I can smoke pot because I just like alcohol.
They have a higher chance of becoming addicted to pot because of their track record with alcohol.
And so I had, you know, I had clients who were shooting heroin going, well, I can get sober and drink.
They said there's a real good chance you're gonna relapse if you if you choose to drink.
Now some people could do it, but most of the time, I would see those clients back.
They were sober for a period of time.
They started drinking alcohol even though their drug of choice was heroin.
And within a month, they were back to using heroin.
With marijuana being legalized more and more across the country, are you seeing an uptick in, marijuana addiction, and and what does that look like, especially in young people?
I think that there's kind of this skewed understanding of what a marijuana addiction looks like.
And I also think that we are gonna see it, and we're not gonna thank goodness for counselors because I don't like saying it this way, but it is job security.
The mayor legalizing marijuana is job security for counselors because it is a highly addictive drug, and now they're putting other things in it.
And it's almost we're kind of at a point with drugs where there's so many things in it.
There's it's just a different level of addiction, to be completely honest with you.
And so people that might not necessarily have a genetic predisposition, they become addicted.
And it's, I mean, it's a problem whether and I always go back to, you know, it doesn't matter if it's legal or not legal.
If you have a propensity to addiction, you're gonna become an addict.
And then on top of that, all the stuff they're putting into it, it's sort of playing you're playing with fire.
And when you do that and so, yeah, what you you brought marijuana as being highly addictive.
Or would that be more because there's a lot of, lot of discussion about this out there in the world, and it's legal, and, oh, it's no different than beer.
Obviously, you can you can become an alcoholic.
Obviously, you can do a lot of damage with drinking.
But is is there a difference in in the, you know, propensity to get addicted to it between those drugs, and how does that how does that work?
Like, there's one more dangerous solution, I guess, is my question.
I would say no.
I'm sort of of the camp of some people just choose a certain substance just because of their temperament.
And but I think because marijuana is much more is is legal now, it's available.
People think it's not gonna cause a problem.
I think we're there's just more people becoming becoming addicted to it.
And I also think that the idea that, well, it's legal, so it's not gonna hurt you or it's natural, it's not gonna hurt you.
I've I've had clients go into psychosis smoking pot.
I mean, it's pretty dangerous drug.
Now I come there's kind of different camps with people with counselors within substance use.
Some people don't think it's that big a deal.
I come from the position that if you have a problem with the substance, you're probably gonna have a problem with other substances.
So you might wanna avoid that.
Just my suggestion.
But, you know, you get a different counselor on here.
They might tell you something differently in that regard.
I let go of the marijuana legalization fight.
I just thought, you know, it's gonna become legal at some point.
We're gonna have there's gonna be an increase in people who have this problem, and we're probably gonna see a lot more other issues come along with it, and it's just sort of how it's going.
Well, we've seen that too with so many different ones now, with technology and with, you know, sports gambling now becoming more legal.
I think there's been an exponential increase in sexual and porn addiction with the Internet and, just becoming everything's at our fingertips these days.
And I guess the thing is it's it's it's it's it sounds like maybe we could be say or may I know you may not agree with me.
It's more about the person's habits and that you can fall into if you, you know, if you don't fall into one, you might fall into another.
It's not Mhmm.
Obviously, we gotta be careful about having everything at our fingertips.
But I guess the real thing is is forming, you know, habits that will protect us from that.
And, you know, counseling can be helped once a person has an addiction.
What what are some good things to prevent people from getting there in the first place?
Like, maybe when you're raising your children, and, do you have any any advice there?
You know, I think that it's I have young children, and when we go out and see people, I'm sort of shocked at how willing people are to let their children just have a phone or have an iPad because of to me, I see this thing that is access to anything.
It it's literally anything.
And then on top of that, there's so much happening in your brain as you're developing that how could the how could you not get addicted?
It's it's you're essentially setting up your child to become addicted to that thing.
And so I think that as parents and it is hard.
I'm not gonna I I see the temptation of going, just watch something for five minutes so I can breathe.
I get it.
But you have to teach your children how to be bored.
That's a big lesson in our home is learn to be bored because it will save you.
Learning how to deal with boredom is gonna is going to prevent you, hopefully, from choosing things that can hurt you.
Now there's no guarantee.
Any parent can teach their child anything, and the child has free will.
And so, also, as parents, we have to recognize that.
But I think the biggest thing is teaching your children how to be bored, use their imaginations, and not rely on something that's gonna hook them immediately.
I mean, it's it's sort of meant to do that.
The phone and the iPad is meant to keep your attention.
And so limiting that and teaching your children how to do other things.
Yeah.
Now how do you teach them to be bored?
I mean, you know, we, my parents, oh, go read a book.
And I don't wanna read a book, you know, when I was a kid.
But, so we'd watch TV or do something, or we'd play sports.
But now, you know, I'll go you know, you got the video game.
It's just another because I I think what what you're talking about being bored, it's to protect against these adrenaline rushes that you get from clicks and from playing the game and and and all these exciting things that are going your your brain just, I guess, can't keep up with it, and it just starts to you get hooked on the adrenaline.
I think a good example, and this is something we do, in my family is we have kids in sports.
And we have kid and and and so when we go to SportsCanes and the younger kids cannot play in the sports, they are asked to watch the game or play.
We don't bring something to entertain them.
They're there to do something with us as a family, and it it sort of starts there.
It's little things.
It's not, okay.
Go be bored and figure it out.
But there's this there's this idea, I think, that we have to constantly a, you know, a possible addiction.
If you have to be constantly entertained, that's gonna be a problem when you're 18, 20, 25.
So just little things in your life.
If if there's an opportunity to be doing something with your family, watching a family member contributing, do that instead of how can I keep them off my back, how can I keep them entertained so I don't have to constantly worry about them?
Things like that.
And it's I'm not saying it's easy.
It's hard.
Going back to marijuana for just a minute, is it true that, do you see it that marijuana leads to, stronger drugs, other drug addictions?
I think you've mentioned that.
I just want to you know, is that is that a good, talking point or a good argument against, the legalization of marijuana and and keeping it out of the hands of children or young people, does it lead to the use of harder drugs?
I think it does.
I my experience has been it opens the door for for any and it's not just because it's because of the drug.
It's if you think about it, it comes with a whole culture around it, and that culture is a drug culture.
So how would you not get introduced to other things?
That's that's sort of what I've always noticed is, well, I just was doing smoking pot every now and then, but my my friend, who's the drug dealer, also does this, and he thought that I should do it.
And so I figured, well, pot's not a big deal.
I could do this thing.
And and so it's sort of it's environmental too.
And and I think that if we even legalizing it, you know, we I think as a as a culture, we can say we can see that alcohol is widely avail available, and there are people that have a problem with it, and we can find those people.
Most people can go, they've got a problem with alcohol.
Now not every we I I would say kind of the general public can't point to everybody who might have a problem, but we can say that person probably has a problem with alcohol.
Look at who they're surrounded they're surrounded by.
People who are addicts and alcoholics tend to surround themselves with people who have worse addictions because, hey.
I'm not as bad as that person.
It's sort of a it's a defense mechanism.
So what would follow is harder drugs.
You know, in treating these people, I mean, sometimes this could be, you know, I guess, trauma related or some experience.
But there can also be, like, loneliness and and so forth.
To to what degree do strong relationships and friendships help someone who's struggling to get over this, in addition, of course, to counseling?
What are what are some of the things that really can help a person who, who's who has an addiction?
So I come from a family of AA, and I all the treatment centers I worked in were 12 step oriented.
There's there's a lot of it it works.
Now there's a lot of people that say it doesn't work for everyone.
I agree.
There's not a one size fits all.
What I have found is that AA works because there's a community involved.
There's people there to help support the person in flourishing, who are gonna tell the truth in a kind way most of the time, and for the goal for for the purpose of that person getting better.
And what a requirement of being an AA is admit you have a problem and be of service to others.
And I think that's key.
And I think it's key in all pathology is being of service to others is helpful in flourishing.
It is highly correlated with flourishing.
So you hear a lot about, opioid addiction, lately and, the consequence the horrible consequences of that.
What are some of the other drugs, especially with young people, that they're getting into, the harder drugs than they're becoming addicted to?
Oh my gosh.
I feel like it hasn't changed.
But fentanyl, if I'm saying that correctly, I always say it wrong, that is one that is everywhere now.
And it's it's very scary to the point where the it's it's it's, the way it's coming into the country, the way it's being kind of trafficked everywhere is quite scary.
It's it's everywhere.
But, you know, I think that we forget the fact that it looks the same, but it's different.
It's different drugs now, but the this has been a problem for a very long time.
It's just there's just new drugs available.
And there's a new I don't wanna say fad drug, but there's one that becomes more popular that's sort of this revolving door, essentially.
We hear a lot about fentanyl, and I I confess I don't know that much about it, but you hear a lot about it in the news, it coming over the border.
What what what are the effects or what are the symptoms of somebody who has a a fentanyl addiction, and and where would where where do young people get that?
Is that mixed in with other things?
And and what I understand it's very, very powerful.
What are the effects of that?
You know, it's very powerful to the point where you don't you'd the person might not even know they've used it.
They it's been laced in all different drugs, and I think that's the the so it's not about what are symptoms of fentanyl.
It's what are symptoms of addiction.
Because at this point in age and in that culture, the drugs are laced with everything.
And so the question is, what are the symptoms of addiction?
And that and you start there.
And then educating, you know, especially adolescents where it's you know, the idea is to just rebel and try new things that this is that this is deadly.
This is no longer just smoking pot and drinking beer out in the backyard and your parents don't know.
This the pot could possibly be laced with something.
It could pass and it's you're hearing it on the news.
Oh, they were just kind of recreational drug use, except there was an overdose.
But the goal wasn't I shouldn't obviously, the goal wasn't overdose, but the goal was just recreational drug use, which not great either, but not someone who's necessarily a full blown person who has an addiction.
And, therefore, they they're doing recreational drug use, and they try something that that's laced with something deadly, and they end up having an overdose.
So I think part of the the prevention is parents having talks with children about drugs, how they're widely available, don't you know, this is what could happen.
That would be kind of the first starting point.
And then taking notice of signs of addiction.
And I think in teenagers, it's really just secrecy.
There's a lot of secrecy in this idea that parents are not allowed to be in charge of their child, and, you know, they're not allowed to know anything.
The it's it the I think that's sort of another piece to this puzzle, especially with children who are still living at home, that parents feel like they can't say anything or do anything, and they can.
And so I think that's also another piece to this.
Question, to what what role can can things like faith, hope, and love play in in overcoming an addiction?
How how how do you see that?
I see it as the best role in how to overcome an addiction.
So mostly, when I work with clients, even clients who don't report a belief in God, there is an acknowledgment that they're powerless over their use.
And then there is this understanding that everything that they try to do has not helped.
And that typically leads a person to a belief in something other than themselves, god, higher power.
And, usually, when that happens, there's a shift that happens in the client, and then they're able to flourishing starts to happen because there's this ability to address pain, address fear, address resentments without the fear of experiencing the feelings associated with whatever's causing the pain, whatever's causing the resentments.
And so because they believe in God.
You know, I heard about a study.
I don't know if you're familiar with this one or not.
But apparently, during Vietnam, there was, the soldiers there were a lot of soldiers getting addicted to heroin.
And some of them, when they got back, it was almost like magic that they they, got back home to their families again, and they, they were able to get off the heroin right away.
There's something about like, there was a similar, I guess, chemical reaction in the the heroin made you feel like you were loved.
I don't know if you're familiar with that or not, but but when you think about, you know, relationships and friendships, which I I would say goes in with faith and virtue and so forth Mhmm.
That was helpful.
I don't know if you're familiar with that or not.
Is that does that square with your, understanding how all this works?
I've never heard that study, but I do know that there are people that, for some reason, they get addicted and then and I call it episodic addiction.
For example, the person in college who's just drinking every weekend all day long, and then they get out of college and it just stops.
They just cut back and they're done.
And so I do think that there's people out there who have that in them, the this episodic addiction.
I'm sure that the the those who were using heroin in Vietnam had some sort of detox, which was horrible, and then they were you know?
But it was worth it enough for them to do it for because they're home with family.
That makes sense to me.
I I also think there's some people who just can't.
They don't have that, and they need something other than self.
And yeah.
Doctor Vivoichka, this has been a very interesting, podcast, a very interesting topic, a sad topic in many ways, but thank you for what you're doing to help people with these, with these addictions.
Can you give us, maybe some, resources or places where people can go if they if they want help or they want more information or maybe share your email if they have questions, about this topic?
Sure.
So they can always contact me, f vyvlecka, vyvlecka,@divinemercy.edu.
Typically, most cities have a council on alcohol and drug abuse or something similar that they could Google and look up, and there's a lot of psychoeducation there.
There's resources and usually some form of group.
There's always, Al Anon for family members of addicts and alcoholics and 12 step groups.
Pretty much anywhere you go, you can find one of those.
And then, also, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, has resources.
And then, again, if you, want a specifically Catholic therapist, there's Catholic Psychotherapy Association that has a list of, therapists that are Catholic in, in belief.
And, usually, they'll let their description will tell you if they specialize in a substance use disorder.
One thing that, you talked about the the power of of fentanyl.
If I think somebody if you think somebody has overdosed or been exposed to fentanyl, I I think time is a time is an issue.
You'd you'd wanna you'd wanna call 911 right away and not, not try to, you know, fault on the side of caution.
Right?
I mean, it's it's such a powerful drug.
Right.
Am I correct in that?
Yes.
Absolutely.
Well, father, I wonder if you have any last questions.
This has been a a very interesting topic.
We look forward to having doctor Vivekko back at another time.
But, father, any any last thoughts?
Just thank you, doctor Vivek Letchka, for all your hard work and for this this very, interesting, fascinating conversation.
And, I'm hoping that, it will certainly it's given me some some really good knowledge and ideas to help others struggling with these problems.
And I'm sure I'm sure my hope is that many people watch this will find the same.
Thank you both.