WEBVTT 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:12.740 Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast. 00:00:13.195 --> 00:00:20.175 I'm Thomas Kronquist of Divine Mercy University, and I'm your guest host with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of the university. 00:00:20.795 --> 00:00:23.915 And, father, we have a very interesting topic today. 00:00:23.915 --> 00:00:35.080 We're we're speaking with doctor Ben Keys again, our program director for the Center of of Trauma and Resiliency Studies, and, he's gonna be talking to us about dissociative identity disorder. 00:00:35.460 --> 00:00:36.980 So very much looking forward to that. 00:00:36.980 --> 00:00:38.360 Father, how are you doing today? 00:00:38.820 --> 00:00:39.560 Well, yes. 00:00:39.620 --> 00:00:41.560 Looking very forward to this conversation. 00:00:41.700 --> 00:00:47.845 I know I I think this is one of doctor Keyes' favorite topics and something he spent a lot of time studying and researching. 00:00:48.625 --> 00:00:49.745 Doctor Keyes, welcome. 00:00:49.745 --> 00:00:52.385 This is our, I think, fourth podcast with you. 00:00:52.385 --> 00:00:53.745 They're always very interesting. 00:00:53.745 --> 00:01:00.520 And and can you tell us what exactly dissociative identity disorder is and how you're involved with that? 00:01:01.540 --> 00:01:06.200 Dissociative identity disorder used to be called multiple personality disorder. 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:23.225 We used to believe that as the person, fragmented in their thinking, in their psyche, that they were separate parts that grew up alongside of each other. 00:01:25.030 --> 00:01:42.135 Due to research, we realized that it was a single personality that had literally fragmented into parts because of the trauma that they experienced, predominantly around childhood sexual abuse prior to the age of eight. 00:01:44.115 --> 00:01:54.000 Now when I came up through the system, I was told that if I saw a DID client, it would be once maybe in my entire career. 00:01:54.940 --> 00:02:05.600 Well, I've had a career of working with this, and seeing several 100, DID clients, over the years. 00:02:08.395 --> 00:02:21.295 And it really wasn't until 1989 that the first two books came out on how to treat and diagnose dissociative disorders, particularly DID. 00:02:22.820 --> 00:02:31.560 Now, if you had been trained prior to 1989, you would see it, and you were told that it was this rare sort of thing. 00:02:33.700 --> 00:02:36.100 It turns out it's not that rare at all. 00:02:36.100 --> 00:02:39.215 We just didn't know how to find it or how to look for it. 00:02:39.215 --> 00:02:55.510 And it's approximately one percent of the entire population, at least in The United States, and it's about ten percent overall of clinical populations in hospitals and treatment centers. 00:02:58.770 --> 00:03:12.045 That's fairly high percentage, and what's interesting is that those numbers have stayed very steady over research in I I think the total is now 62 countries. 00:03:13.945 --> 00:03:22.890 I was involved in, the research that was done in the People's Republic Of China, where this is a a culture that was pristine. 00:03:24.630 --> 00:03:29.690 The cultural model of of, dissociation says, well, of course you find it. 00:03:29.910 --> 00:03:31.370 You know, it's in your literature. 00:03:31.510 --> 00:03:32.630 It's in your books. 00:03:32.630 --> 00:03:33.690 It's in your movies. 00:03:34.375 --> 00:03:39.355 Well, this was a pristine culture that didn't have it in its books or movies or anywhere. 00:03:39.735 --> 00:03:46.555 They also didn't treat it, so nobody really knew about it unless they had been trained in the West or in Europe. 00:03:51.100 --> 00:04:12.745 And we basically, over a number of years, research, we basically found the same thing as we did in every other country, about one percent of the overall population and about ten percent of the clinical population in hospitals and treatment centers, and very consistent with the rest of the world. 00:04:13.445 --> 00:04:18.105 And so what it did was it dispelled the cultural model, basically. 00:04:20.640 --> 00:04:38.225 As a result, the research team, myself and doctor Colin Ross in Texas and our Chinese, partners all received an award from the Journal of Trauma and Dissociation, for the work that we did. 00:04:38.765 --> 00:04:41.245 This is something you spent so much time on. 00:04:41.245 --> 00:04:45.005 This is this is this is something very, you've lectured on it. 00:04:45.005 --> 00:04:46.305 You've you've done research. 00:04:47.650 --> 00:04:52.550 So I'm gonna be the, you know, I know a little bit like Sybil, the movie, the book. 00:04:54.050 --> 00:05:02.765 What misconceptions do I have on how this works, and and how does this, maybe you could just give me an overview of what this, disorder is. 00:05:02.905 --> 00:05:05.005 The the word myriad comes to mind. 00:05:06.185 --> 00:05:06.745 A myriad. 00:05:06.745 --> 00:05:07.245 Okay. 00:05:08.505 --> 00:05:29.240 Well, first of all, the work of Cornelia Wilbur, who was Sybil's therapist, really came to be known, and for a long time, this was, this was all most of the world knew about multiple personality disorder. 00:05:32.235 --> 00:05:45.600 Then along came Eve Carlson, the three faces of Eve, and we didn't quite know where to put it or what to do with it. 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:55.685 But in the literature, more and more stories about these type of clients started coming to to the fore. 00:05:57.185 --> 00:06:02.965 Over time, we began to know that this was a disorder that happened in early childhood. 00:06:03.105 --> 00:06:07.925 It was tied predominantly to early childhood sexual trauma. 00:06:09.450 --> 00:06:14.190 There were a few cases that were outside of that, but it was minimal. 00:06:14.810 --> 00:06:26.785 For instance, I had a client that at age seven went through a operation for appendicitis in the twilight state. 00:06:26.925 --> 00:06:36.065 She went through the entire you know that twilight state where you can't talk, but you can hear everything and you can, you can feel what's going on? 00:06:36.230 --> 00:06:41.610 She went through the entire operation that way, and literally fragmented. 00:06:42.790 --> 00:06:48.650 The sexual trauma happened later, but the fragmentation happened at the time of the surgery. 00:06:49.775 --> 00:06:56.275 So it's overwhelming trauma that causes this and it it causes a fracture. 00:06:57.935 --> 00:07:00.515 And we do what's called compartmentalization. 00:07:02.430 --> 00:07:13.730 The pain goes over here, the hurt goes over here, the betrayal goes over here, and now instead of being in one whole place, they're now in separate places. 00:07:15.095 --> 00:07:25.675 And as the child grows and into an adult, those parts literally solidify into sometimes what we call altars. 00:07:26.055 --> 00:07:41.340 In other words, parts of self that can take independent control of of the body and sometimes have, either full or partial amnesia between the parts. 00:07:41.340 --> 00:07:44.800 In other words, the parts don't necessarily know each other. 00:07:45.395 --> 00:07:57.655 So a doesn't know b, b doesn't know c, they come out, they do what they do, and the person ends up losing time and they experience it as lost time. 00:07:57.715 --> 00:08:03.090 Oh, the last thing I remember I was making breakfast and it's 04:00 in the afternoon. 00:08:05.630 --> 00:08:11.490 And these are sort of common symptoms that show up that really lead to the diagnosis. 00:08:12.670 --> 00:08:21.445 But the two things that you need is you need the amnesia and you need that the part takes executive control of the body, at least one of those parts. 00:08:23.105 --> 00:08:28.465 And so the person doesn't necessarily know that they don't know that they have this problem? 00:08:28.465 --> 00:08:30.065 How do they realize they have a problem? 00:08:30.065 --> 00:08:32.260 Like, what Or how do they get diagnosed? 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:45.300 Often, they know that they have a problem when they start hearing stories from other people and their that the the their experiences don't match up. 00:08:46.935 --> 00:08:55.355 You know, they very often the child assumes that, you know, everybody loses time, because that's their experience of it. 00:08:55.895 --> 00:09:03.740 But as they hear that it's not there, they realize that some something's wrong and something's missing. 00:09:04.920 --> 00:09:19.825 Often, they come to therapy for depression or a marital issue, and that's when it's really discovered that there was this trauma that occurred in early childhood that set up the fragmentation. 00:09:22.285 --> 00:09:31.460 And usually, a client is in the system, I think the average is close to seven years, seven point two years, before they are accurately diagnosed. 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:33.700 They're diagnosed as schizophrenic. 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:35.700 They're diagnosed as bipolar. 00:09:36.160 --> 00:09:52.005 They're diagnosed as pretty much anything in the, personality disorder category, and yet, and I'm almost sorry that it's classified as a disorder because it comes about as a defense mechanism. 00:09:52.865 --> 00:10:07.930 It's a way of a person coping with overwhelming trauma that doesn't make sense to them at their age and doesn't make any sense of what what can I do with it and how can I cope with it and how can I deal with it and the fragmentation occurs? 00:10:08.950 --> 00:10:10.790 Today, there are so many cases. 00:10:10.790 --> 00:10:16.015 We hear about so many cases of sexual abuse, sexual abuse of of minors. 00:10:16.015 --> 00:10:32.880 But I'm wondering, with the prevalence of pornography, is that a strong enough can that be a strong enough, trigger exposure to pornography as a as a child to to lead to DID, or does it have to be something more physical if you if as it were? 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:36.960 It's usually more pronounced than just being exposed to pornography. 00:10:37.260 --> 00:10:49.985 For instance, had a client that, and she actually wrote a wrote her story in a book, where her father used her for for pornography. 00:10:50.445 --> 00:11:04.810 She was the the main act, if you will, and he passed her sexually around to his friends and filmed it and then put it out as pornography sold it, made a fortune. 00:11:07.045 --> 00:11:12.665 But she was filmed at a very young age and clearly fragmented in her personality. 00:11:13.765 --> 00:11:27.390 And the traumas that she experienced, well into her adulthood, she would have flashbacks and, you know, memory loss from the different parts talking to her. 00:11:28.090 --> 00:11:44.905 She eventually fully integrated, fully recovered, became a, a licensed clinical, psychologist and spoke around the world about, recovery, from early childhood sexual trauma. 00:11:46.325 --> 00:11:49.620 How would we determine if someone has this? 00:11:49.620 --> 00:12:00.360 Like, what would what would be signs of it, or what are some of the symptoms that that you would see if you're if you're suspecting maybe you're seeing things that might fit this pattern. 00:12:01.275 --> 00:12:14.175 Actually, the symptoms are very similar to, symptoms of schizophrenia, because they share the same, what are called first rank symptoms, the positive symptoms. 00:12:14.780 --> 00:12:17.200 Positive is where something is added to. 00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:21.920 So hearing voices, seeing things that aren't really there. 00:12:24.540 --> 00:12:34.865 So you would you would pick this up from someone who's talking about hearing voices inside them, commenting on on their life. 00:12:36.685 --> 00:12:41.745 Whenever I hear anything like that, I usually will ask about early childhood trauma. 00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:46.240 Sometimes they're not aware of the trauma. 00:12:47.260 --> 00:12:54.220 Other times and most of the time they are, but they're not sure what it was or what happened. 00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:58.425 They were too young to have full memory of it. 00:12:59.285 --> 00:13:10.985 Often, the memory get of the event gets put into a place in our brain called the implicit memory, and the only way to reach that is for it to be triggered. 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:27.680 It's stored there because it was so overwhelming as it was being processed in the brain that the hippocampus had to put it somewhere, and so they put it in this place called the implicit memory. 00:13:29.035 --> 00:13:43.760 And later on in adulthood, something triggers it, a smell, a picture, somebody, a phrase somebody says, and all of a sudden, boom, it floods back in, often referred to as recovered memory. 00:13:45.420 --> 00:13:50.780 But it's it's very real because that's what the the brain did in order to cope with it. 00:13:50.780 --> 00:13:54.320 It was so overwhelming, it had to put the information somewhere. 00:13:55.125 --> 00:14:09.785 Doctor Keyes, could you in your experience, could you, could you give us, obviously, preserving confidentiality as, an experience you had maybe in treating somebody and and success and and helping them to to reintegrate? 00:14:10.980 --> 00:14:12.900 Can you can you share something like that for us? 00:14:12.900 --> 00:14:14.440 Give us a little glimmer of hope. 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:15.880 This sounds very dire. 00:14:17.060 --> 00:14:18.200 It's long term. 00:14:19.300 --> 00:14:26.695 The the normal trajectory for recovery is between two and ten years, and I say that's the average. 00:14:26.755 --> 00:14:45.410 So, there are clients that have been in treatment fifteen, twenty years, but there are also folks that, that move through the issues and work work through the dissociation, in three, four years. 00:14:45.550 --> 00:14:47.970 It it is a long term issue. 00:14:48.350 --> 00:14:56.265 And that's actually been one of my areas of study is trying to find ways of of hastening that process. 00:15:00.165 --> 00:15:14.440 Currently, I'm looking at virtual reality techniques that the government our government has been working with for some time with returning, veterans, and that looks very promising. 00:15:17.855 --> 00:15:30.195 Also, EMDR, is a technique that rapidly processes information and material, and it sort of moves the the treatment process forward. 00:15:30.335 --> 00:15:34.240 That has been the research on that has been very promising. 00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:43.200 But you you wanted an example of someone that's worked all the way through the process. 00:15:44.825 --> 00:15:49.705 My client Sandy is actually a great, great one. 00:15:49.705 --> 00:15:54.605 It's in the public domain, so I can talk about Sandy, pretty well straight out. 00:15:55.705 --> 00:16:06.860 Her book, she's written a number of books, but, the one that we, worked on together was called e pluribus unum, one out of many. 00:16:08.280 --> 00:16:13.685 And she tells her story upfront, life background and so forth. 00:16:13.685 --> 00:16:25.450 And then through her artwork, she's an amazing artist, through her artwork tells the story of moving through therapy to full integration. 00:16:27.030 --> 00:16:38.570 She had seen several therapists prior to me and, actually, one of my supervisors was one of her first therapists and the one that diagnosed her accurately. 00:16:41.245 --> 00:16:54.770 When I saw her, she had seen about three or four therapists that had just totally opened her up to all of, a lot of the traumas that she experienced, but didn't take the time to close her back up. 00:16:55.390 --> 00:17:03.570 So, I mean, it was literally like watching a person being an open wound, just hurting all the time. 00:17:06.045 --> 00:17:27.730 I worked with her for, about two years, and if you add the other work that she had, it would be a total of about seven years of therapy that, slowly, we work through the issues, we work through the problems, there are a lot of integration of the parts. 00:17:28.110 --> 00:17:34.050 In other words, the parts come together as a as a single whole instead of being separate. 00:17:38.425 --> 00:17:48.365 And at the end of this, she had been working as, as a hypnotherapist, doing, you know, smoking cessation and things like that. 00:17:49.270 --> 00:18:00.970 And she wanted to do heavier work, and so she started doing work with trauma clients, and I highly pressed on her the need for her to do more training. 00:18:01.725 --> 00:18:03.565 To her credit, she went back to school. 00:18:03.565 --> 00:18:18.840 She got a master's in counseling, and then she got a doctorate in psychology, licensed as a clinical psychologist out in Colorado, and, wrote books and spoke around the world for years. 00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:27.160 Unfortunately, she passed away about a year ago, but absolutely brilliant and sharp. 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:41.805 Her dissertation added to the heuristic model of psychology, looking at yourself as a single subject, and what she added to that model was spirituality. 00:18:43.210 --> 00:18:51.550 And, it was, she was immediately picked up by four universities upon graduation and the work that she did in her dissertation. 00:18:52.570 --> 00:19:04.595 So, yeah, people do and, do get well, and I tell my clients, if you stay with me, you will, eventually, integrate and be a single personality. 00:19:06.815 --> 00:19:09.615 So doctor Keyes, I've, you know, I've heard stories. 00:19:09.615 --> 00:19:26.020 One story I heard was of a woman, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Sandy, who, who held a pretty high level job at a big corporation, but but had this this is dissociative disorder. 00:19:27.385 --> 00:19:37.725 And I guess the question is, like, how is it possible for someone, who's shifting back and forth in different personalities and they have this amnesia? 00:19:38.185 --> 00:19:52.460 Like, how do they function, and how could you possibly hold a big job and still, you know, not lose it or, you know, and and and survive and not not have this called out on them? 00:19:52.520 --> 00:19:55.180 I had a client, many years ago. 00:19:56.805 --> 00:20:04.345 Actually, she she worked for IBM, and she had a they had her on a route. 00:20:04.645 --> 00:20:05.945 She was a a supervisor. 00:20:06.565 --> 00:20:08.905 And so she lived in Saint Pete, Florida. 00:20:09.820 --> 00:20:19.920 And her route was that she would travel to Houston, where she had a boyfriend that that she dated, somewhat. 00:20:20.860 --> 00:20:24.720 She lived fairly well, near where she was working. 00:20:26.175 --> 00:20:38.975 And then a month later, she would travel to Los Angeles where, she had a live in boyfriend that, they lived pretty much the beach life. 00:20:39.375 --> 00:20:48.210 They were on the sand and, she would surf and, you know, it was kind of interesting. 00:20:48.750 --> 00:20:59.245 And then she would fly to New York where she also had a live in boyfriend who, was very involved in the arts. 00:20:59.245 --> 00:21:03.345 They would go to opera and art openings and so forth. 00:21:03.565 --> 00:21:06.525 And finally, her route would lead her back to, St. 00:21:06.525 --> 00:21:09.700 Petersburg, where she was married with two children. 00:21:12.800 --> 00:21:20.660 And what was happening was that, these were three major parts and they would shift when she was on the airplane. 00:21:21.785 --> 00:21:30.105 And so she had absolutely no knowledge of being in Houston, of being in LA, or New York. 00:21:30.105 --> 00:21:38.950 She just knew that on the on the flight back, in her briefcase was everything she needed to return to the office. 00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:40.730 Everything was filled out and done. 00:21:40.870 --> 00:21:44.490 She wasn't completely sure how it was done, but knew it was. 00:21:46.870 --> 00:21:53.955 Number of years into this, and this is how I met her, IBM changed her out. 00:21:55.775 --> 00:22:10.280 And in other words, she was flying instead to Chicago, Chicago first, then, San Francisco and Atlanta. 00:22:12.020 --> 00:22:16.040 And her internal parts started warring. 00:22:17.115 --> 00:22:20.235 Basically, you know, Hey, I want my boyfriend back. 00:22:20.235 --> 00:22:21.755 I want my clothes back. 00:22:21.755 --> 00:22:23.595 I want my lifestyle back. 00:22:23.595 --> 00:22:24.735 What are you doing? 00:22:26.395 --> 00:22:45.035 And the internal battle was so severe that she she went into counseling, she was referred to me, and and and sure enough, there was there was the amnestic barriers that we talked about earlier, between the parts. 00:22:45.035 --> 00:22:56.655 They didn't know each other, but with this happening, all the the parts inside started talking to each other. 00:22:57.540 --> 00:23:07.720 She, she, the one that was living in Saint Pete that was married with two children, had no idea of the other three parts. 00:23:08.820 --> 00:23:18.195 And as it turned out, she had a total of 10 parts, And that's considered low, but 10 very separate parts. 00:23:19.775 --> 00:23:32.890 And, you know, working through the the clashes and the differences, working through what the issues were, getting them to work together were all part of the therapy process. 00:23:34.310 --> 00:23:36.890 I saw her for another four years. 00:23:38.390 --> 00:23:53.355 She eventually had to leave IBM because she just couldn't handle the, the switching and the not knowing and and, parts would take over and and she would have no control over it. 00:23:55.255 --> 00:23:56.795 It was just it was dangerous. 00:23:57.015 --> 00:23:58.395 So, she stopped. 00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:06.550 She desperately tried to keep the other parts from coming out, and, of course, she couldn't do that. 00:24:08.530 --> 00:24:10.610 But, eventually, they worked things out. 00:24:10.610 --> 00:24:20.555 Eventually, she, integrated, but it, it took her a total of, six years from the time that I saw her. 00:24:21.255 --> 00:24:21.575 Wow. 00:24:21.575 --> 00:24:36.870 And so was she still like I said, when she went to Houston on her route or initial route, like, she would still be doing her IBM work, but having enough, like, this relationship with this other guy and not remembering Not remembering being married with two children back in Florida. 00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:37.670 Yep. 00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:44.390 So she could still manage her work, but just, like, in a different home life thing or a different personal life? 00:24:44.450 --> 00:24:44.950 Correct. 00:24:46.525 --> 00:24:52.145 And different different clothing, different furniture, different everything between the parts. 00:24:53.405 --> 00:24:57.665 And and that's that's fairly that's fairly common. 00:24:58.910 --> 00:25:01.230 I mean, part parts can be anything. 00:25:01.230 --> 00:25:02.670 They can be any age. 00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:05.970 They can be any gender, or transgender. 00:25:07.390 --> 00:25:22.555 They can be, I've worked with parts that were infants, that were children, that were elderly, that were animals. 00:25:23.415 --> 00:25:30.930 I worked with two people that had a part that was, one was a cat and the other was a dog. 00:25:32.990 --> 00:25:34.210 It can be anything. 00:25:35.070 --> 00:25:44.935 Can you talk just briefly about the difference between schizophrenia, borderline personality, bipolar disorder, the difference between those and DID? 00:25:44.935 --> 00:25:57.030 You hear you hear, you know, the the different diagnoses used in conversation, but I there must be very, without going too deep, very specific differences between them. 00:25:57.570 --> 00:26:19.465 This is not a 100%, but, one one of my ways of looking at this is, are the voices talking to the person on the inside and commenting on what's going on, or are the voices on the outside coming to me? 00:26:21.150 --> 00:26:35.650 Like, that fluorescent light above me, which just went out, that fluorescent light above me is telling me to, to to say nasty things to you. 00:26:37.645 --> 00:26:43.265 So if the voices are coming from the outside to me, that's schizophrenia. 00:26:45.005 --> 00:26:53.140 The voices commenting on the inside can lightly be or could possibly be trauma or dissociation. 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:14.655 Now that's not a be all and an end all, and, I I'm enough of a researcher to, to use a certain amount of assessments to be able to look at what their experience is and do they fit in this category or this category. 00:27:15.115 --> 00:27:30.520 And all of the diagnosis that you gave fit a couple of very specific, assessments that give me a pretty good idea of what's really going on in this in in the person's system. 00:27:31.865 --> 00:27:33.145 So you mentioned before. 00:27:33.145 --> 00:27:39.325 So sometimes these these can get mixed up, and some of the you traditionally have been confusion with that. 00:27:40.025 --> 00:27:45.630 Are there other disorders today that maybe could be dissociative or are being called something else? 00:27:46.030 --> 00:27:46.530 Sure. 00:27:47.870 --> 00:28:07.005 You know, the the ones that were mentioned, borderline personality, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, All of that gets sort of mashed in depending on when you were trained as a clinician and what you were exposed to as a clinician. 00:28:07.625 --> 00:28:15.000 So if you were told that you would never see this, you're not looking for it, so it's very easy to not catch it. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:23.340 So if you get symptoms, you call it schizophrenia because, oh, I got voices, oh, I got visualizations of a thing of people. 00:28:26.085 --> 00:28:29.605 Well, that's the experience of someone who's dissociative as well. 00:28:29.605 --> 00:28:37.385 And the in the newer trainings, most schools have started really teaching a lot about dissociative disorder. 00:28:38.090 --> 00:28:40.410 And the research has borne it out. 00:28:40.410 --> 00:28:52.670 I mean, the research has been pretty clear, and decisively clear that dissociative disorders are very real, and particularly DID is a very real phenomenon. 00:28:55.345 --> 00:29:01.505 I know you mentioned this, a little bit when you're telling the stories, about the two different cases you you worked on. 00:29:03.505 --> 00:29:08.300 So there is it normally a trigger or something that might make a person shift from one to the other? 00:29:08.300 --> 00:29:11.200 And to what degree can they control that themselves? 00:29:11.900 --> 00:29:13.520 It really depends on the client. 00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:23.685 There are clients that have no control over it whatsoever that the parts move in whenever they decide to move in or or out. 00:29:24.305 --> 00:29:27.125 There are some systems that are very benevolent. 00:29:27.185 --> 00:29:31.985 They work try to work together with a person, to, to get well. 00:29:31.985 --> 00:29:45.460 There's usually one, one alter that is pushing them to get well, to make this work, to, repair the damage that was done. 00:29:48.555 --> 00:29:49.355 Excuse me. 00:29:49.595 --> 00:30:02.860 There's often a part of self that is very connected spiritually, and that's often the part that is behind them getting into therapy. 00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:07.740 It's it's been an interesting journey. 00:30:07.800 --> 00:30:20.265 And there's, in psychology, there's a whole area of thought that's developed around parts work, parts of self, parts of being. 00:30:20.725 --> 00:30:41.650 And how do I identify the parts within me and bring those parts into confluence, into agreement with each other, and repair the dissonance, repair the parts that are at war with each other or struggling with each other. 00:30:42.725 --> 00:30:54.665 And that really is the therapy process is I I sometimes call it doing, doing, family therapy with one person, because it's really the the the relationship. 00:30:54.885 --> 00:31:08.790 You have to connect to each part, join with each part, get them to work together with each other, and then, as they're working, the need for the separation starts to be less and less. 00:31:08.930 --> 00:31:10.630 And that's what happens with integration. 00:31:12.325 --> 00:31:13.605 One question here then. 00:31:13.845 --> 00:31:16.005 This might sound overly simplistic here. 00:31:16.005 --> 00:31:22.965 So you mentioned you mentioned, doctor Kiza, a, predominant personality, maybe it's a spiritual one. 00:31:22.965 --> 00:31:25.680 Like, how do I know this is really me? 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:30.020 Like, when I go through therapy and and is there generally one that's more predominant? 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.940 And then, like, that's the quote, unquote real one. 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:36.080 How do you sort that out? 00:31:36.080 --> 00:31:37.620 They go, this is who I am. 00:31:37.745 --> 00:31:40.325 And Actually, all of the parts are them. 00:31:40.785 --> 00:31:50.885 What you're referring to is what we sometimes refer to as the core personality or the part that is typically out handling whatever's going on in the world. 00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:57.040 But they often do that with a lot of help from some other parts. 00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:04.320 And more and more as they go through treatment, more and more that consolidates. 00:32:05.535 --> 00:32:08.095 That's that's that's a healthy thing. 00:32:08.095 --> 00:32:09.395 That's a healing thing. 00:32:11.295 --> 00:32:13.955 Nothing ever gets lost in the system. 00:32:14.095 --> 00:32:17.695 Nothing ever, it's it's all there. 00:32:17.695 --> 00:32:22.680 But, if it's if it's fragmented out, you don't have access to it. 00:32:22.820 --> 00:32:31.400 I had I had one client that, one part that went to school, so they had all the information from college. 00:32:32.825 --> 00:32:34.205 The other parts didn't. 00:32:35.785 --> 00:32:44.845 So if they were out, they couldn't function at work because they didn't have the mathematical equations and the science that the other part had. 00:32:46.280 --> 00:32:50.760 So for them to be able to work, that part needed to be out to work. 00:32:50.760 --> 00:32:52.860 So they had to come to some sort of agreement. 00:32:53.720 --> 00:33:00.220 Doctor Keyes, are there different, parts that are associated with different types of trauma? 00:33:00.635 --> 00:33:08.815 I I mean, can you see patterns where a particular trauma would cause this, the separation of of parts? 00:33:09.835 --> 00:33:13.055 Are there commonalities, patterns that you've seen? 00:33:14.140 --> 00:33:14.960 Not really. 00:33:15.500 --> 00:33:28.405 I mean, the commonality is the trauma itself, and and the the the way that we are wonderfully built by god to deal with it. 00:33:29.345 --> 00:33:33.205 I mean, it's it's it's almost like a safety valve. 00:33:33.265 --> 00:33:44.800 If, I so much trauma and overwhelm react in me to a certain point, I need to have some way of letting the steam out. 00:33:46.060 --> 00:33:51.200 Because if I don't, which often happens, I I I fragment. 00:33:53.755 --> 00:33:56.415 And that fragmentation can keep going. 00:33:56.635 --> 00:33:59.615 I mean, I've worked with people with 400 parts. 00:34:01.995 --> 00:34:08.335 Now you work with them in groups and sometimes large groups on the inside. 00:34:10.010 --> 00:34:14.190 When I talked about Sandy earlier, I talked about her having 10 parts. 00:34:14.410 --> 00:34:16.270 That was 10 main parts. 00:34:16.570 --> 00:34:21.870 When I saw her the first time, the first map showed 250 splits. 00:34:23.735 --> 00:34:29.515 And one of the things that I often do with with clients is I have them, what's called mapping. 00:34:30.695 --> 00:34:32.635 What are the relationships inside? 00:34:32.695 --> 00:34:33.495 Are they close? 00:34:33.495 --> 00:34:34.635 Are they far away? 00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:36.800 What parts talk to each other? 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:38.980 What points what parts isolate? 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:43.940 And so you can create this map with x's and o's. 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.500 You can, have them draw a house and they're in certain rooms. 00:34:51.105 --> 00:34:53.525 I've seen all kinds of different maps. 00:34:55.265 --> 00:34:58.085 You really allow the client to to do this. 00:34:58.545 --> 00:35:16.780 Sandy was very, skilled with in art, so she drew the scenario that she was seeing and where the parts were and how they were connected to to, the childhood pornography and the things that happened to her in early life. 00:35:19.905 --> 00:35:31.605 There there was one area that that was a compound, and these were parts of self from from the sexual abuse that was being filmed over the years. 00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:37.930 Different clients do it different ways. 00:35:38.710 --> 00:35:42.390 So it seems like it's generally almost always related to sexual trauma. 00:35:42.390 --> 00:35:43.030 Is that correct? 00:35:43.030 --> 00:35:44.390 Or is it always sexual trauma? 00:35:44.390 --> 00:35:47.610 97% related to sexual trauma. 00:35:48.205 --> 00:35:49.805 And then you mentioned this map. 00:35:49.805 --> 00:35:50.925 So is there a test? 00:35:50.925 --> 00:35:53.565 Like, a how how do you come up with a map? 00:35:53.565 --> 00:35:59.265 Like, is that is there a a particular testing mechanism or No. 00:35:59.645 --> 00:36:02.785 The map the map is really drawn by the client. 00:36:03.550 --> 00:36:06.930 Basically, I say to them, it could be a collage. 00:36:07.150 --> 00:36:09.170 I've had many clients do collages. 00:36:10.190 --> 00:36:13.550 This part is this over here and this part is this over here. 00:36:13.550 --> 00:36:19.825 And, I've had, three or four of them draw a house with different rooms. 00:36:22.765 --> 00:36:23.985 I've seen mandalas. 00:36:26.125 --> 00:36:29.490 You know, this part is this, this part is this, this part is this. 00:36:29.490 --> 00:36:38.710 Some have names, some didn't have names, but they were all related in some way or another to the whole system. 00:36:41.025 --> 00:36:52.565 And it's it's amazing when the core part of self that I I mentioned earlier comes to the awareness that they're they are a part of that system. 00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.300 It's not that they are the part of the system. 00:36:58.080 --> 00:37:05.300 Different parts normally have different names and different identity descriptions, and abilities. 00:37:06.635 --> 00:37:09.615 And very often, you know, we we were talking spiritually. 00:37:10.155 --> 00:37:18.095 Very often, you get a teenager, for instance, who wants to gain control in the system. 00:37:18.635 --> 00:37:21.695 So, they call themselves Satan. 00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:25.790 And, of course, everybody goes, Oh, you must be possessed. 00:37:26.890 --> 00:37:27.950 It's not a possession. 00:37:28.010 --> 00:37:32.990 It's a teenage alter who's trying to get control in the system and trying to scare everybody. 00:37:34.665 --> 00:37:54.980 And I I you know, when I lecture, I say I've met I've met Satan at least about 10 times, and I think every demon I can think of, at least four or five times, because these are these are teenage alters that are trying to gain some sort of foothold in the system. 00:37:55.600 --> 00:38:01.680 Doctor Keyes, if somebody thinks they might be suffering from this, where can they go for help? 00:38:01.680 --> 00:38:05.360 It seems like you need a very, specialized training to deal with this. 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.465 Where can someone look for help? 00:38:07.465 --> 00:38:08.365 Where do they start? 00:38:08.425 --> 00:38:14.285 Well, first of all, they can get in touch with me at the center, and I can tell them who's available in their area. 00:38:15.225 --> 00:38:20.280 I'm connected to two or three organizations that, that work with this. 00:38:20.680 --> 00:38:31.660 But the in the, International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, is a group of clinicians. 00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:37.985 We're about 1,500 strong throughout the world, that work with DID specifically. 00:38:41.165 --> 00:38:47.985 And, depending on where people are, I can definitely connect them to therapists that can help them. 00:38:50.130 --> 00:38:59.190 And we teach on how to work with this through the Center of Trauma and Resiliency Studies. 00:38:59.970 --> 00:39:17.895 We teach it through our training on sexual trauma and also our training on complex trauma called the HEART model, which is a model a faith based model that I've developed, to work with complex trauma and dissociation. 00:39:18.850 --> 00:39:22.130 Doctor Keyes, can you give us your, email address again? 00:39:22.130 --> 00:39:27.510 I know you have in past, episodes, but give us your email address so people can send you questions. 00:39:28.530 --> 00:39:30.790 And, I think that would be helpful. 00:39:31.125 --> 00:39:31.365 Sure. 00:39:31.365 --> 00:39:39.865 It's bkeyes,bkeyes,alllowercase,@divinemercy.edu. 00:39:41.205 --> 00:39:43.045 So I I just have one final question. 00:39:43.045 --> 00:39:44.905 You heard Divine Mercy, University. 00:39:44.965 --> 00:39:54.000 Our mission is to blend science and faith, and we take spirituality very seriously in faith and especially our Catholic view of the person. 00:39:54.620 --> 00:40:05.625 You mentioned, the spiritual part maybe of the predominant personality or core personality, so to speak. 00:40:06.165 --> 00:40:10.565 So to what, what degree could that take control? 00:40:10.565 --> 00:40:19.320 So someone could be very pious and at the same time have these other personalities taking them into different in different directions? 00:40:19.540 --> 00:40:19.860 Yeah. 00:40:19.860 --> 00:40:20.680 Very often. 00:40:22.020 --> 00:40:28.155 The the part that I referenced is often called the internal self helper or ish. 00:40:28.375 --> 00:40:45.020 The ish is a part of self that is connected spiritually, often often from exposure from childhood, to Christianity or to, a living God. 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:56.575 And they often are sort of pushing the client along to to get well and to heal and to find their way back to God. 00:40:58.715 --> 00:41:06.655 They often can be very helpful in, navigating difficult areas and working with this. 00:41:07.910 --> 00:41:21.945 I'm always very happy when I find an internal self helper, because they really are companions, both for the client and for the therapist in navigating the the the world. 00:41:22.165 --> 00:41:23.865 It's a magical world. 00:41:25.365 --> 00:41:28.665 Anything can happen on the inside and often does. 00:41:29.525 --> 00:41:36.360 So you're only limited by your own creativity and understanding what's possible on the inside. 00:41:37.300 --> 00:41:44.600 And, some of the techniques that have been developed in working with this are very creative and very useful. 00:41:45.620 --> 00:42:05.070 We also use dialectical behavioral skills, to help the client manage, their feelings and manage being able to think appropriately in difficult situations as they're working through treatment. 00:42:05.930 --> 00:42:07.530 Doctor Keyes, I have one last question. 00:42:07.530 --> 00:42:09.130 Unfortunately, we're running out of time here. 00:42:09.130 --> 00:42:10.970 I think we could talk for hours about this. 00:42:10.970 --> 00:42:12.090 It's very, very interesting. 00:42:12.090 --> 00:42:19.245 And, is there is there, any kind of connection between human trafficking and DID? 00:42:19.245 --> 00:42:24.225 Do you see a lot of DID with people who've suffered the trauma of human trafficking? 00:42:24.925 --> 00:42:30.785 Actually, we used, survivors of human trafficking to test the HEART model. 00:42:31.390 --> 00:42:38.610 It was a seven year longitudinal study on and and found that it works very well. 00:42:38.910 --> 00:42:41.150 But to answer your question, yes. 00:42:41.150 --> 00:42:55.825 And the reason that we used the trafficking population for for this is because almost two zero one, they are either PTSD, DID, or borderline personality. 00:42:56.765 --> 00:43:10.310 And that's all from their, whenever whatever age or timing that they were exposed to being sexually traumatized and then the continuing of that in trafficking. 00:43:12.130 --> 00:43:28.115 I mean, you think about somebody that's there against their will to begin with, they're being raped sometimes eight times, eight to 10 times a night, to be able to make the money for the trafficker. 00:43:31.140 --> 00:43:42.120 That's a lot of trauma over time, and, you know, it's very common that survivors are using drugs, are using alcohol just to survive the trauma. 00:43:43.835 --> 00:43:46.715 Doctor Keith, thank you so much for a very interesting talk. 00:43:47.355 --> 00:43:59.170 I would encourage people to go to, divinemercy.edu for more information about the, your center for trauma and resiliency studies and to learn more there and to and to also, maybe communicate with you through that. 00:43:59.790 --> 00:44:04.430 I look forward to, more very interesting, conversations with you. 00:44:04.430 --> 00:44:07.790 This is, I think, number four, but I'm sure there are gonna be more in the future. 00:44:07.790 --> 00:44:10.450 And, again, thank you for your time. 00:44:10.755 --> 00:44:11.635 Thank you, Tom. 00:44:11.635 --> 00:44:13.735 And father Charles, thank you so much. 00:44:14.515 --> 00:44:15.355 Thank you, doctor Keyes. 00:44:15.355 --> 00:44:17.095 It was a fascinating conversation.