Welcome to the Call to Flourish podcast sponsored by Divine Mercy University.
My name is Thomas Kronquist.
I'm your guest host with father Charles Sikorsky who's the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father, how are you doing today?
I'm doing just fine, Tom.
How are you?
Very good.
We have a very interesting, interview this morning, with Ian Masson, who is the, director of our IPS center here, the on campus clinic.
And he is also a graduate, as you know, of Divine Mercy University.
Ian, I'd like to welcome you to the call for call to flourish podcast.
How are you today?
Doing well, Tom.
Yeah.
Just thanks so much for having me on here.
I really appreciate it.
Well, Ian, I'd I'd like to start with, tell us about your background.
How did you, become interested in psychology, and how did you, your your experience here at Divine Mercy University and now your your position at the as the director of the IPS center.
Just tell us about your background.
Bring us up to speed.
Sure.
So initially, what got me interested in psychology was forensic psychology.
Actually, reading a book by Roger DePue, who is the previous kind of head of the FBI's behavioral analysis unit.
So really kind of looking more at, like, the criminal side of psychology was initially what got me interested.
And then, when I went to college, I had experiences, with my campus ministry that just, really led me more towards the path of walking with people on their journey of healing, less so on kind of the the criminal side of things and more working with people who are, wounded and maybe wanting to, achieve healing in their life.
So I was majoring in psychology in in undergrad, and I went to a national conference for the fellowship of Catholic university students.
And Divine Mercy University, at the time, the, Institute for Psychological Sciences had a table there.
And this was my senior year kind of deciding what it was that I wanted to do after I graduated.
It's like, well, if this is a if this is a place where, the faith is really integrated, with psychological practices, that's where I wanna be.
So I applied there and, in '2 was at IPS from 2010 to 2013.
I graduated with a master's in clinical psychology.
At the time, it was called the master's plus program, and it was set up basically to set you up for licensure at the master's level.
So after I graduated in 2013, I started the licensure process in Virginia to become a licensed professional counselor, and I started working at a mental health agency in my hometown.
It was kind of a general practice that served the, surrounding counties.
And, during that time, saw a wide range of clients.
I think the youngest I worked with was three all the way up to clients in their eighties, but specializing in particular with, children.
I got my certification in child centered play therapy, which I had been exposed to here at Divine Mercy University, and then also couples and families doing relationship enhancement work with them as well.
And, I guess the the other part that you would ask about was bringing me back here now that I'm the director at the IPS center.
So last year, I was reflecting on changes maybe that I wanted to make and having really a more mission oriented focus.
And when this position came open, I kind of reflected on how I might, incorporate that and was just excited to kind of make that change.
And now I'm back at the IPS center where we kind of have a twofold mission of training students in how to start working with clients and, what it looks like in a practical sense to, integrate the Catholic Christian meta model of the person in a session with clients, and then also providing therapy services to those who need it most through our sliding scale services.
Yeah.
So, Ian, you mentioned, you met DMU at the, FOCUS conference.
And so were you involved with FOCUS as an undergrad?
Yeah.
I was.
Initially, I was a student leader, did lead, a bible study for a couple years with FOCUS, and, FOCUS was heavily involved in my campus ministry and had some wonderful missionaries who really invested in me as well during my time at George Mason.
So, yeah, it's a it was a it was a great blessing, you know, being able to do some of those things.
And then, obviously, the the national conference was kind of what, opened my way, I think, to my vocation as a as a counselor too.
Yeah.
So and, so you saw things in the campus ministry that maybe kinda made you refocus a little bit on what you wanted to do and the kind of people you wanted to serve.
And I think one of the things we're always hear hearing about today, are the mental health issues on college campuses.
Did you see that often in your in your Catholic campus ministry?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know, college, especially, I think, can be a well, it's a significant transition, you know, for students to make.
They're away from home for the first time.
Many of them are away from home for the first time.
They're developing their sense of identity and making choices about what they want their life to look like.
And at times, not really receiving a lot of guidance and support in that area.
And that can be a very frightening experience, I think.
And you would see, a lot of anxiety, you know, a a lot of depression in in college students who maybe feel isolated, feel like they're they're not connected in a meaningful way, like, really having meaningful relationships, and, not really sure of, how they want to live their life or what they want to live their life for.
Yeah.
So that that's interesting.
They need to help them not only religiously and with their faith, but also also in a psychological level and, you know, sort of a life planning level and how how do you get get everything integral integrally, centered.
Right.
I mean, here I am, you know, at college, and I'm doing this degree.
But why?
Like, what's the purpose of it?
I think that's where the psychology can really kind of come in and, help in terms of just identifying those values, kind of clarifying what they are, how I want to live my life, and also then addressing maybe what are some of the the wounds or experiences that I've had that are, preventing me from being able to move in that direction.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's a great segue actually, into, the topic we have today, which is managing stress in everyday life.
And, there's obviously a lot of stress on college campuses, and, you you know, maybe we can touch on that more.
But, wanna just start out with, you know, if you could define stress, what what is it, I guess, clinically or, you know, it's the word is used a lot.
But, you know, what are we talking about here?
What what are the symptoms, and, when do they indicate something serious is going on?
So I think that's a a good question.
I laugh a little bit because I'm I'm sure, you know, there have been there have been lots of discussions over the past couple years of stress and, effects of chronic stress probably all experiencing that, I I think.
There's a fine line between stress and anxiety.
I would say, we kind of definitionally, like, stress is a response to a perceived threat or a a stressor.
And different different people are going to find different things stressful.
But one of the things that typically we might be able to, look at is, what are physical symptoms that we might be experiencing.
So do we have an experience of being depleted, kind of a general sense of fatigue?
If you're stressed, you can experience, you know, gastrointestinal issues, headaches, finding yourself a little more irritable, having a sense of being overwhelmed or exhausted.
But stress is in response to something that is going on typically in our outside world.
Now how we respond to that, like I said, can be part of our individual upbringing, biologies, temperaments, you know, even our culture.
You know, in in American culture, there's sometimes this very, strong emphasis, again, maybe related to college or high school students, this drive to achieve.
And so there might be this pressure that can kinda bring about more of a stressful response.
And you mentioned so that stress, the stress is kinda the outside.
So anxiety, is that something that's more internal?
Anxiety is persistent more persistent worries that don't go away even in the absence of a stressor.
So I'm worried, but I don't necessarily know why.
Now it can lead to a very identical set of symptoms such as stress.
So, you know, having difficulty sleeping, difficulty concentrating, you know, fatigue, irritability.
So they are similar, I think, in that sense.
But anxiety focuses a little bit more on, maybe as a future oriented concern or worry, whereas stress is our fight or flight response kind of occurring in the here and now.
Okay.
Mhmm.
Going back to where where we started with college campuses, I'm thinking, you know, new students, freshmen, freshmen coming onto campus.
They're leaving their families, maybe as you said for the first time, a whole new group of friends or a whole new group of people around them.
The stress of classes maybe at a higher level than than they experienced in high school, higher expectations from family and and those around them, you know, career choices.
I'm just wondering, are, you know, different students are probably at a different place or different different levels of preparation for that kind of thing.
And and, you know, how do, how how can you, how how can we help people who maybe are not ready or or not well prepared for for college?
What what kind of things can can a a psychologist or a counselor do?
Well, I think one thing that psychology and counseling can kind of help with is first, that that point that you made about, you know, when they get to college feeling kind of isolated or lonely.
Psychology and counseling can kind of help uncover areas maybe of vulnerability.
Like, okay.
What are some of those, what are the quality of your relationships looking like?
You know?
Because when we get stressed, there's a natural tendency as well to kind of have a narrow field of vision mentally speaking.
So it's like we we focus in on that perceived threat that's right in front of us, which leads us to not only do we already feel maybe cut off from families, friends, communities, and things like that, but the stress leads us to do that even more so because it's like, well, I don't have time for those things when really those sorts of things are actually what is going to help maybe with the stress level.
So counseling and psychology can kind of take a look at where what does my current balance look like?
What are what are some of my own maybe perceptions and attitudes towards achievement, college, life in general, values?
And they can uncover maybe some, you know, rigid thinking patterns that we have, again, whether from ourselves or from family and upbringing, that can actually contribute or exact to or exacerbate stress that we might be experiencing.
And how do we know, and what would you say someone that it sounds like stress is normal.
Everybody's stressed to one degree or another.
When do we know when it's a real problem?
I might need to get some help.
I'm glad that you said that because I think sometimes college students, most of us in general, we're going to experience stress, and stress is a normal part of our lives.
Stress can actually even be helpful in small doses, because stress energizes us.
It's there is kind of like a adrenaline that comes into the system.
We kind of get the the blood flowing.
It's like, alright.
Let's let's kind of let's kind of tackle this.
The difficulty comes, and I think this is where, you would kind of know there's more of an issue when it starts affecting our daily functioning.
So does is the stress interfering with my, ability to engage in relationships, follow through on tasks, complete, you know, just basic physical self care things.
You know?
Is stress interfering with my eating, with my sleeping, with engaging in other outlets.
So I think that's a a one big factor, that we can tell.
You can also rely on people around us.
You know, if you have people kind of, like, coming to you and saying, yeah.
It just seems like you've got you've got more kind of going on in your life.
Seems like you're more kind of, seems like you're more stressed.
I think that's another good indication as well.
It's like, okay.
Maybe I need to kind of look at what's going on here and, do a do a little bit of evaluation.
Yeah.
And what are some of the so if it's not addressed, you know, I assume, you know, what you just mentioned are some of the consequences.
Right?
Relationships get soured or may we end up doing things we really regret, you know, in a weaker moment.
And it it was interesting what you said that, you know, I think we could all do our our neighbor a great good.
Do the other person hey.
You know, you really seem stressed these days.
What's what's you know, I hope everything's okay.
Just to kinda maybe remind them, hey.
Maybe you need to, you know, get some help or talk about it with somebody.
Absolutely.
I think that addresses one of the big pieces of stress that or one of the big experiences in stress is people often feel isolated in their stress.
And so they feel like maybe I'm the only one going through this or they don't want to be a burden to other people in their life.
And so reaching out to somebody that you notice that in, can really be, just a lifeline, you know, because it's it's not something typically that we might ask about.
And I would also say, I think internally in terms of dealing with stress, that's one of the most important things that we can do when we ourselves are experiencing stress.
So many people have a difficult time with accepting their own the sources of their own stress.
And, you know, I think often, you know, we might reach out to a friend and say, hey.
Well, what's bothering you or what's kind of going on with you?
But when it comes to our own sources of stress, we're actually typically more likely to, engage maybe in some kind of, like, defense or turn away.
It's like, alright.
Well, I'm stressed and I do I just don't wanna deal with that.
So I'm gonna raid the fridge or I'm gonna flip through my phone or, you know, binge watch on Netflix or something like that.
Instead of doing what we would to a to a genuine friend and turning to that part of ourselves at stress and saying, hey.
What's going on with you that's bothering you so much?
And psychology and counseling can really kind of help with that too.
Getting in touch with those parts of ourselves that carry those stresses or carry those burdens as well.
Seems that, one of the indicators that stress is is going beyond what we normally experience You talked about anxiety, that general sense of anxiety that that carries on, even when the stress stress, inputs aren't there at the moment.
And if it's if if it's turned into that, you know, the constant worry, the constant anxiety of affecting, yeah, all kinds of things, that would be a real indication there's a problem.
Yes?
Yes.
In general, I would say that now all of these things kind of, like, occur on a spectrum.
Right?
So there's a spectrum of stress.
There's a spectrum of anxiety.
You know, anxiety can rage range from, you know, kind of mild worry and kind of like a general sense of unease to, panic attacks where, you know, clients might be having difficulty breathing, you know, experiencing, like, heart palpitations even though there's nothing wrong with them physically and things like that.
And same with stress too.
Right?
I mean, we might have a a stressful day, but then we kind of bounce right back from it.
Or stress can be chronic stress, or maybe we don't have a sense of worry, but it's one thing after another after another, and we just we move from problem to problem.
And we're not we're not made to do that.
We're not meant to do that.
We have to we have to refill our tanks, so to speak, or we go to e and then the the car doesn't run anymore.
Yeah.
What are some, you know, techniques we all can do in our daily battle with this?
So, you know, because a lot of times, as you say, okay.
We gotta recharge and and so forth.
But, you know, when we're really you know, difficult things can happen.
I mean, you're moving to another city or you're changing jobs or you have a newborn child.
Like, what are you know, when you feel it, right, it's a big adjustment that you have to make.
That's probably not a chronic thing, but you you know, how do you handle what are some tips you could give us to to to manage that kind of stress?
Yeah.
I think that's a a good question because we don't want to turn away necessarily from the stress.
So that goes back to, what I was saying of, you know, if a friend is sharing their hurt or stress and we just say, okay.
Cool.
Like, I'm just gonna go watch Netflix.
And that friend's going to be left feeling very hurt.
Right?
And so one of the biggest things I think that we can do when we are noticing or when we are experiencing stress is noticing and connecting with it.
Now what that means is having more of an attitude of curiosity and compassion.
So if I experience stress, can I look at that and say, okay?
Well, what's going on here in the moment?
Like, what is it that's bothering you?
So I think that's one important thing because oftentimes, we talk about, well, I'm just gonna you know, again, maybe gonna do something that disconnects me, but we can't you don't disconnect a phone to recharge your phone.
So you actually have to tap into the sources of what it is that's bothering you.
Now I think an additional point with that is that there is a there is an importance to take care of us, to take care of ourselves at different levels.
So, one of the things that actually I I have learned was doing what's called a PIES assessment, and the PIES is an acronym for physical, intellectual, emotional, social, and spiritual.
And so looking at each one of those domains and what am I doing to take care of myself in those areas, which can look different depending on what's going on in our life as you were highlighting father.
Because, like, I know for myself, my my self care in physical or intellectual or emotional domains changed when I became a father.
And with with each kid, you know, I'm not wasn't able to do the same things, but I at least had that structure as a, as kind of a a way of assessing how am I kind of doing in each of the these areas taking care of my life.
I think the other important point is being intentional about actually taking breaks during the day.
And so one of the things that I know I found helpful is, kind of at the beginning, middle, and end of the day, just taking up taking a pause from whatever is going on task wise and just to do kind of, like, a quick internal check-in of how are things going.
And that can actually hit the hit the pause button on our kind of fight or flight responding to each task or responding to each threat that might be coming up.
How does, someone's faith impact or alleviate stress and anxiety?
Have you seen that there's, can that be beneficial, someone's faith, help in in in these areas?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So, faith, spiritual practices can be a huge source of comfort.
I mean, obviously, in the scripture, you know, you have, Christ reminding us that, our father cares for us and our father loves us.
And what you're highlighting is actually can be an important step when we are connecting with those parts of us that are stressed or upset.
So if if we're not in tune, if we're not connected with what's stressing us out, then we're not as effective as bringing those things into prayer.
And so when I say, okay.
This is something that's stressing me out or is kind of weighing heavily on my heart, being then to being able to turn and bring that to Christ, to God in prayer, and kind of leaving it in his hands can be a source of both comfort and relief kind of because so much of what we stress about, often we don't actually have control over over what's going to happen.
Right?
And, we spend a lot of time and a lot of energy stressing out about things that we don't control.
It's important to acknowledge that this stresses or bothers me, and then that that spiritual side that you just highlighted can kind of provide that opportunity for surrender and peace really to kind of enter in that we can ultimately recognize that god is one in charge.
And that even if things don't work out the way that we would like them to, that we're promised that ultimately there is, that there that it is going to work out.
You mentioned, you know, taking time away, and you think about, you know, the examined life the philosophers talk about in examined life.
Saint Ignatius Loyola talks about the conscience exam, doing conscious exam, doing that periodically.
And then even, you know, Saint Francis with the famous prayer for serenity and right knowing what I control and knowing, you know, the things I can't control.
And, there's something about that just taking short periods of time in the middle of the day, like, how are things going and, you know, and what why am I a little anxious today or stressed?
And why, you know, why was I not as as focused or paying attention?
And and and I think, it can be extremely helpful.
I mean, it helps us certainly on a spiritual level, but even it seems like also on a human level, starting to start thinking, well, what's you know?
Sometimes you think, but what you know, in the big scheme of things, in the long term, god's long term plan, okay, whether, you know, whether this particular task or matter goes well or isn't gonna end up mattering that much.
And here I am worrying so much about it because of my perfectionism or because of my, you know, OCD or what whatever it is, you know, my my need to get things done, you know, and and can you maybe help us in that?
Right.
I mean, that's it does help on a psychological level because, otherwise, we run the risk of I mean, in psychology and counseling, what we call, like, the concept of leakage, where we're cutting off a part of ourselves.
Maybe we're just we don't if we don't pay attention to what's stressing us out and we maybe try to push it aside, you know, through denial or just kind of, like, white knuckle through whatever is, bothering us, the part of us that stressed doesn't go anywhere.
And stress actually signals that there's something important going on inside of us.
And if we keep it out of our awareness, there is a natural pull for that trouble to come to the surface.
And so, actually, the more that we suppress, the more that we try to suppress our stress, the more it actually fights to get to the surface.
And it's almost like a beach ball that you're trying to hold under the water.
Right?
And it just keeps trying to kind of, like, pop up in a way.
So the more energy that we kind of put into it, you know, the more that it's kind of fighting almost to get to our attention.
So doing these breaks can actually do a little bit of, checking in so that there's not this buildup then that can end in, you know, maybe irritability or outbursts towards family or friends or even just the the physical response of, exhaustion of actually carrying around that mental burden all the time without doing something to kind of check-in with it and maybe alleviate it a little bit more.
I find it very helpful for me personally when I start my day with, with with prayer and reflection and and before before the day gets really complicated, you know, just spending that time in prayer and, I guess, preparing for the day.
I find I find when I don't get that time in in the morning, my days at least I perceive my days don't go as well.
So, you know, I think that could be helpful.
If someone is really struggling, that and and these, these, recommendations you've made, these suggestions you've made, they're they're not they don't seem to be they don't seem to be helping, and and and they're they're in deep water.
They're sinking as it were.
Yeah.
What would you recommend?
How how do they get help when it when it's when it's getting really serious?
What would you recommend?
So I think another very important point because oftentimes, you might try to go it alone of, like, no.
I've got this, or I'm gonna I'm just gonna try making this work.
And so one of the things I really try to emphasize, just in talking with people in general is it's okay to kind of admit that I'm not okay right now and that I need help.
And maybe I need help at a different level of stress than somebody else does, and that's okay.
So practically speaking, I would say reach out, you know, to to somebody, on a professional basis, obviously.
So I work at the IPS Center for psychological services, and we we're currently offering in person services for adults and for children ages five to 10.
And then we're also offering telehealth services currently for adults across the state of Virginia.
And you can also if somebody were to kinda be outside of the Virginia area, you know, there's psychologytoday.com.
There's catholictherapists.com.
And then I would also recommend going to a family or friend, family member or friend and saying, you know, this is something I'm struggling with.
I'm looking for a therapist or counselor.
Do you know of anybody?
You know?
And getting that conversation started just so you can you kind of get on that path towards healing.
That's great.
Hey.
One question here too.
I suppose, you know, we spend so much time at work and, you know, there's job demands and there's all these kinds of things.
What if you're in, like, a toxic work environment and, you know, you feel disrespected and bullied and kinda, you know, you know, not treated the right way and real and but you don't have any options.
Right?
You kinda feel like, oh my gosh.
I gotta do this job.
I mean, easy to look for a new job, but, how how should someone try to navigate that?
I think that address there's two real things that like, when I'm working with clients who maybe have been experiencing that that I try to look at with them.
First off is, can we look at making a lateral change by changing jobs?
Right?
Now if that isn't possible and it's not always because of the person's circumstances, job market, whatever the case may be, then how do we how can we kind of build up your attitude?
And I think this is goes back to the beginning of the session of finding meaning in the work.
What are some of the things that we can do that kind of act as buffers towards some of that toxic stress?
So does that mean, you know, setting boundaries and maybe developing a little bit of assertiveness depending on how you can maybe kind of, have conversations with people who are in charge of making it more of a positive or toxic environment.
And what internally, again, can I control with my own attitude and approach towards work?
Because oftentimes in those situations, there's a sense of powerlessness and hopelessness.
It's like, well, I can't change my work environment.
Okay.
Well, maybe that's true.
Then let's focus on what you can control, which oftentimes is how we approach our work.
Maybe for a father, that means that, you know what?
I don't like it, but it is providing for my family right now.
Or I don't like it, but I'm gonna focus on doing the best job that I can until something else kind of comes along that I'm going to look for opportunities for self improvement in this area.
Ian, if somebody has any questions, that they would like to ask you, maybe on a personal level of follow-up, is there or if they have questions about your career path, your particular career path, or even the clinic, do you have an email address that they could, they could use, or how would you suggest they they follow-up with you?
Yeah.
So we've, if if there were particular inquiries maybe about, therapy or services, the IPS center, has an intake email and phone number.
So the email is ipscenter@divinemercy.edu, and the phone number for the IPS center intake is 70341821111.
And then if there were, you know, questions like you said, career path wise or things like that, my own email would be imassen.ips@divinemercy.edu.
And that's with two s's.
Yes?
Two s's.
Yes.
Masson.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Well, unfortunately, we are, coming kind at the end of our our podcast here, but I wanna thank you so much for this, very important discussion we've had.
And, I know we have future discussions scheduled, so I'm looking forward to those.
But, thank you for being with us, and, I just look forward to talking with you in the near future.
Well, thank you.
I I enjoyed it, and, hopefully, it it blesses, the people who are listening to it.
So thank you.
Have a great day.
You too.