Welcome to the call to flourish podcast.
My name is Thomas Kronquist, and I'm your guest host with father Charles Sikorsky, the president of Divine Mercy University.
Father, how are you doing today?
I'm doing just fine, Tom.
Well, we have another very interesting, interview with doctor Harvey Payne, who, as you know, is the dean of the school of counseling here at Divine Mercy University.
He's worked in the mental health field for many years, thirty five years, primarily serving children and adolescents.
And, he's gonna speak to us today about rebuilding your relationship with your child in the midst of COVID nineteen.
Welcome, doctor Payne.
Welcome back.
Thank you so much, Thomas.
Glad to be with you all.
It seems though this is a a very important topic.
The the COVID, pandemic seems to be kind of hanging on.
It doesn't completely go away, and, I've heard the term COVID fatigue, and I've seen how it's affected my family.
Mhmm.
And, with, the events and different things being canceled and and my children not being able to do all the normal things that they had done pre COVID.
Yeah.
So why do we have to rebuild our relationships with our children, in the midst of this pandemic?
Great question.
And the the thing that comes to my mind is many parents had to shift roles and go into roles that they weren't used to, such as all of a sudden now I'm teaching, I'm monitoring my child's every moment throughout the day, schoolwork.
Mhmm.
The difficulty that many children had with online learning, especially when, schools are just under such pressure to get that online up and running so quickly.
And, the advice out there was, you know, everything from, you know, make sure you're monitoring your child so that they get everything done so they don't fall behind, to just let it go because the relationship is the most important thing.
And that all those different competing, opinions and just the struggle, for homeschoolers, the fact that many of the normal typical outside type of activities and relationships could not be maintained, gave a whole different feel for many homeschool families.
And so, again, parents being put in a different kind of role that really strained the relationship.
And as you wisely said, COVID fact fatigue is a real thing, and it's going on.
And so how in the midst of all of this, in the midst of the the ever changing landscape and in midst of the fatigue that happens, how do I help my child?
How what's the best thing that I can do to really help them be resilient during this difficult time?
I guess the question I would have, doctor Payne, and what what advice would you give parents to help them do that and toward the child, but also toward the parent?
Because I think the fatigue goes all the way around to everyone.
Definitely goes all the way around.
And, on some level, you know, it's it's nice to be able to give specific advice and to say, hey.
This will help.
That will help.
And, one of the things that that I firmly believe is that in this type of situation, one of the best things is to rebuild the relationship.
And rebuilding the relationship not only is a positive for the child, but because the calling that every parent has in wanting the best for their child and to really love their child, it actually also definitely helps the parent, and it helps both the parent and the child to develop resiliency.
And, one of the things that I'd like to talk about, because I think it's one of the most powerful ways to help, is is a technique called special time.
Special time.
Okay.
What what is special time?
Well, typically, you know, when we think about special time, it means let's take the kids out for ice cream.
Let's take the kids to Walmart to buy a new toy.
But in the mental health world of helping children, special time is really having a specific time where you interact with your child in a way where they become the focus of your attention, and you actually allow the child to lead you in his or her play.
And it's this experience of the child having this, deep encouragement that builds on the child's heart and has many positive outcomes for both the child and the parent.
Seems to me it's very important for the parents to have or develop stronger relationships with their children during this period because other relationships outside of the house have been reduced, and they need that they need that interaction.
I see that with with my children.
We're concentrated or during the the pandemic, we were concentrated in the home oftentimes.
Sometimes I liken it to, the fuel rods in a nuclear reactor just being brought brought together and then generated, But they need they need those relationships, and when they can't have them outside the home, it's the the the parental relationships are are are much more important.
Do you do you think that's true?
I I think that's a very insightful, comment, Tom.
The the we all hunger for meaningful relationships.
And when we can't get it from a broader community, it actually puts more weight, if you will, on the key relationships that we can have, and so especially for the parents.
I noticed also my children develop, depending more on virtual relationships.
We've talked about this in the past.
I I talked to them about screen jumping, jumping from screen to screen.
You know, their classes are online, and then they're playing video games with their friends online.
And then when they're not doing that, they're, you know, what's on TV?
And it jumping from screen to screen, hopefully, that will will reduce itself in the future.
But, is that what kind of problems does that cause?
The first thing I think about is the difficulty of multitasking.
And for most of us as humans, it's nice to talk about multitasking, but the reality is that most of us can't do multitasking.
And when you're rapidly switching from one task to another task, there's a cost.
And so enduring, all your focus on one task until it's completed actually ends up saving you time to then complete another task as opposed to the multitasking.
It's hard not to be distracted, and it's hard to shift your cognitive gears, if you will, with the multitasking.
The the one thing I will say, though, for individuals who struggle with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, for many of them, having background music or something else going on actually helps them to focus more on the task.
Actually helps them to focus more on the task.
And that's definitely something for parents with children who struggle, for children who struggle with ADHD, just to understand that sometimes that actually can be helpful, but that's not the norm.
Question, doctor Payne.
You know, with the, you mentioned special time is one of the things parents should try to do, to spend time, kind of allow the the child to sort of direct that particular time.
What are the things that parents can't do?
I know in the pandemic, maybe, the shutdown and and the kids being at home so much.
What what are signs that a parent might see in a child where they they may need to get professional help?
And and how how would they go through that process if they've never had to do that before?
I think, it's very important to be aware of what has been your child's baseline, if you will, and to look at a couple key areas.
So looking at, you know, they have typically been, it's been easy for them to fall asleep.
They usually wake up refreshed.
All of a sudden, my child is having difficulty falling asleep.
They're very groggy in the morning.
Looking at levels of activity, my child who was very engaged and doing many things is just sort of sitting on the couch watching TV all the time.
Looking at mood, and and we know from temperament studies that, you know, about seventy percent of children, you know, have the normal ups and downs that we all have.
About fifteen percent are, like, doesn't matter what happens.
I'm just happy to be here.
And they're sort of blessed with that kind of temperament.
And then you have the 15% that life just always seems heavy.
It always seems irritable.
It always seems more than what they can handle.
And definitely for that grouping, professional counseling can be quite helpful.
And and learning, how to handle that and how to respond in in more positive ways.
The the key for me, though, really is that baseline concept of this is how my child normally responds, and oh, man, they're they're much quicker to anger.
They're not eating as much.
And that's where it's not one symptom, but it's looking at, the baseline and the difference that you're seeing in your child.
And for younger children, often the stress, sign that we see is they're regressing.
You know, didn't need a parent to help be with them to go sleep at night.
And now all of a sudden, they're back to needing that.
And so can be different signs, but all based on your knowledge as a parent of your child.
In my experience, I've also seen that, there's a competition for parental time, daddy time.
When I get home from work, there's there's a I have to prioritize and and and budget my time because there's only so much time in the day, and and after work.
So, you know, I see also maybe some jealousy and some emotions, negative emotions, developing at times.
How, what's the best way to deal with those things on the parental side and the and the side of the children?
Great question.
And and, actually, I think, maybe fleshing out a little bit more about what special time is, could be helpful.
And, special time is for children from toddlers all the way up to about age 10.
Although I've definitely had children 11 and older who also enjoy and benefit from special time.
And it's it's setting up for that one particular child that right now, this is our special time.
And it really starts off with as little as five minutes.
I mean, we're not talking about this is a ninety minute thing that I've gotta block off.
No setting up about five minutes, being with the child in an area where the two of you can just play together without being disturbed, and and having toys that you can engage with, construction toys, puppets, creative toys, no screen time, video computer games, and and no games with rules.
No board games.
I mean, if you've ever played with kids with board games, there's often the whole issue of rules and who did what.
So it's just the the fun, hands on, engaging kinds of toys.
And then really following the child's lead.
So no comments, no rules, no questions, no criticism.
In some ways, stop being a parent, sort of our typical parental style, and just be with the child and enjoy them.
And describe what you see.
Oh, wow.
Boy, that dinosaur jumped really high.
Paraphrase what you hear.
Uh-huh.
He was really upset when he said that, wasn't he?
And play along.
Imitate.
Do sort of parallel play even.
But, again, most of all, enjoy delight in your child.
And so will focusing like that on your child bring about some jealousy in some other kids?
It's very possible.
And so finding ways to set up different special times on different days for different kids, having parents switch off.
I've even had older kids do special time with younger kids.
And, again, it's they're not being a parent.
It's not a parental role.
It's just enhancing that sibling relationship, which can be very important and positive in large families or when there's a large gap, you know, of age in between.
Great suggestions.
Very, very, very, very helpful.
And I just like to play.
So for me, it's just sort of a natural.
You know?
Bring out the child within you.
Yes.
Meet them on their level.
Oh, I I love how you said that.
Yeah.
Meet them on their level.
Meet them where they're at, which is, not to over spiritualize, but isn't that what God did for us, in sending us Jesus?
He meets us at our level, and he delights in us, right, in a certain way, imitating Christ, imitating God the father in these relationships.
Yes.
How important, doing things as a family are, you know, if they're if they're siblings, getting them to play together, or to do things together.
What what approach might, a parent take with that?
Because maybe they're just tired of being around their brother or sister all the time.
You know?
Yes.
I do wanna make it clear that special time doesn't take the place of family time.
And, you know, and one of the the trends in America has been for quite a while now, the the loss of eating together.
Used to be that a table that y'all sat at and ate was one of the first things you would buy when you moved into your first house.
It might never be bought today.
It might be one of the last things that gets bought because feeding has become a grazing almost situation where I run-in from school, I do some grazing, and I go off to soccer practice.
You know, it's it's not the family time.
And so I do think actually eating together, and for all cultures, eating together has always had a very powerful impact on societies, and making that time even a fun time.
I can remember, my wife who is also an educator and also likes to have fun, you know, putting underneath each child's plate a particular, way that they need it to behave at the dinner table.
And so they would have to peek and look at that, and then other people would have to guess what they were supposed to be doing.
And so the child that was constantly say, can you please give me got reinforced and had fun in in learning just common courtesies, common etiquette, you know, at the table.
So I think having those kinds of experiences, watching a movie together and then discussing it, what were the values?
What were the artistic creative components that were really compelling?
What were the truths that got expressed, in that movie?
Actually, Tom and I the other day, in the hallway, we're discussing how people just need these relationships, and platforms like Hulu are starting to cast parties where you and your extended family that aren't with you or friends can pick the movie and when to start it, and you can all be watching it at the same time, commenting to each other, pausing it, talking, and finding those activities that that pull us together even when everybody can't be together even in one space.
You mentioned play and how important play is.
Talk about play therapy.
Is that just I guess children express themselves in ways that reveals a lot about their their psyche, their emotions, what they're going through through how they play.
But most parents wouldn't pick up on these on the subtle cues, I don't think.
What what kind of talk a little bit about play therapy and and how that can be in how how that might work with in the in the parental children relationship.
Special time actually comes out of, play therapy, meaning that the the context and the setup and what we're asking the parent to do is in fact what professionals do in play therapy.
And there's a number of therapy models where therapists actually train parents to do that with their child.
And on some level, although historically, we've always believed that it was the brilliant insight of the therapist that made the difference for the child, In reality, it was always the attachment and relationship that made the change.
And so what you're actually creating in play therapy is this environment where the child can begin to feel at home and comfortable.
They can begin to know the limits because there are definitely certain limits in play therapy.
You can't harm yourself.
You can't harm the therapist.
You can't destroy things.
But learning how to be more expressive both in their play and in their talk, They're feeling deeply heard and deeply accepted.
And and one of my favorite biblical stories that always comes to my mind, which I know might sound odd, the Old Testament and play therapy.
But if you remember the the story of Hagar, who is the the slave of, at that time, Abram and Sarai, and she is forced to become the surrogate mother for the child, and the child is Ishmael, and they get rid of her and put her out in the desert.
An angel of the Lord comes to visit and begins to speak truth to her and how he is going to take care of her.
She calls him a particular name for God, and it's not the God who heard me.
It's the God who sees me, and in play therapy, children feel seen in a way that's transformative, that helps them to be more resilient, that helps them to understand their limits, helps them to understand how to discover and know themselves, And it's really this transformative environment, if you will, that's the most important, as opposed to historically with Anna Freud and others, Melanie Klein, that somehow our interpretation of what the child was doing was the most important.
You know, we we have this, I think we all experience that.
Right?
The need to be heard and understood and accepted and so forth.
You ever get a thought where that comes from?
I mean, you know, okay, it's an effective therapy, and it's it's effective in in a lot of our in developing strong relationships with others.
But, what is it about us that we we have that that need and that desire?
I mean, my only answer is we were created that way.
And if you look at the, especially the literature on attachment, And, actually, if we, maybe we can do this.
I'm I'm off script here.
Maybe we can do it, but, maybe we could show the still face experiment, which only takes a couple minutes.
And it's the research and attachment where you have this young child, and, the mother is engaging with the child back and forth, and the child is happy and everything.
And then the mother just stops, turns around, gets a flat face, turns back to the child, and the child just starts trying to reach for her, begins to whimper, literally gets physically distressed, and the child is just like, I can't bear this.
And then the mother turns around and comes back with the engaging face.
And all of those signs and symptoms of this is a very distressed infant disappear, go away.
And it is that that just not emotional, but neurophysiological need that we have to be seen and heard and understand by others.
That's part of our flourishing that also builds resiliency, including the ability to tolerate pain.
And and I know I'm talking about different research, but one of the other, research projects that I'm very fascinated with is Sue Johnson, who's the founder of emotionally focused therapy for couples, does a study where she puts one of the partners who's in a distressed relationship in a functional MRI and studies the brain and occasionally gives shocks to the bottom of the feet.
And not, you know, horribly painful, but distressing.
And when the partner in the distressed relationship holds the hand, it doesn't do anything, and sometimes it even makes the pain worse.
When when a stranger holds the hand of the person going through the functional MRI, Again, doesn't make much difference at all.
At the end of therapy, they do it again.
And at the end of therapy, where there's a successful reengagement of the couple, they do it.
And the two things that are noticed is, one, is the brain is actually even more aware of what's going on, but, actually, the person feels the pain as only a mild annoyance and not pain even though it's at the same level.
And when his or her partner holds their hand, it significantly reduces the pain even more.
And so it there is this deep nerve neurophysiological need that we have to be connected even just for our physical life.
And and so it it's it's sort of like sunflowers who, you know, will move based on the sun because they realize I need they don't realize, but because of how they've developed that I need the sun to be alive.
Yeah.
I don't think it may be, ultimately, you know, we're made in God's image and likeness, which is the holy trinity Mhmm.
Which is this, you know, it's perfect harmonious relationship where everything is intertwined, and and maybe maybe there's a connection there, ultimately.
Because sometimes, you know, you you experience something, it's like, I just need to tell somebody about this.
You feel much better.
Doesn't change what happened.
Doesn't solve a problem many times.
But but just being able to tell someone about it seems seems to just have a tremendous, you know, a tremendous impact.
Definitely.
And I think, you know, grounding that concept in philosophical and theological understandings for many of us is very important and definitely a part of why we're here at Divine Mercy University because we have the freedom to think about that and to do that.
And, the the the capacity for resiliency isn't changing the adversity.
It's being able to endure the adversity.
And so talking about a horrible, stressful situation that can't be changed and being really heard and seen gives you more resiliency to keep going even though it hasn't really changed that difficult situation.
That makes me think about the children today.
Many of the many children today who, are members of broken families or maybe both parents are working or other situations where they don't have that interaction with, with with their parents, loved ones, and and how they how they might suffer in their in their emotional development.
And, I I've seen in my family, you know, it's so easy to, for me to get involved with, this on a smaller scale, projects, you know, trying to get different things done, checking off boxes, you know, in the evenings and and the weekends.
And and my wife has reminded me, she said she says, dear, your children are the project.
And and so I just I mean, maybe you could speak to you know, as we finish up here, how the negative effects of not having those those healthy relationships in a family, what what what are what are what are those?
The things that we know is that every area of your life gets impacted.
Everything from how your immune system works that then puts you more at risk for certain diseases, enhances risk taking as individuals grow up, makes, you know, the resiliency against addictions lower, I mean, just a multitude of outcomes.
The the thing that is very clear, though, and this is something I think is very important for an audience, is when you look at the research and what helps kids who are born with some type of difficulty, let's say a difficult birth or some type of minor disability or something, and have situations in their family that that we would call adverse childhood events, a parent who's, an alcoholic or something like that, struggles with alcoholism.
Having a person even outside, and often it is a person outside of the family.
It could be a teacher from third grade.
It could be a coach.
It could be somebody in the congregation who really does what we're talking about, really sees that child.
Definitely, if they can help them develop some mastery in some hobby or some area to create what's been called sort of an island of competency in the midst of the storm of their life.
Those, what we might see is pretty small incidents, we actually know produce resiliency that makes significant difference down the road for these individuals.
And it doesn't mean that for all of us that adverse events in our life don't have an impact on us, but resiliency can definitely help you rise above those incidents.
And that's where I think for all of us to realize the influence that we have with children and adolescents around us in very often simple ways that can be powerful.
Very, very helpful.
Doctor Payne, I wanna thank you very much for being with us again today and talking about this very important, very interesting topic.
Where can people go to find, resources, more information about the things we've discussed today?
There's a number of parent books that are out on developing relationships both with children and adolescents.
Actually, for those who are interested in mental health training, one of the unique parts of our curriculum at DMU that comes out of our Catholic Christian understanding of families is a focus on how to help children and adolescents, both in the PsyD program and in the clinical mental health counseling program.
Students learn about play therapy, how to do play therapy.
We both have courses in marriage and family therapy.
And many, programs in The United States, in PsyD or in clinical mental health counseling, you can actually go all the way through without having a course on child or adolescent therapy or marriage and family.
And, I think that's a really important aspect of a professional mental health competency is to be able to address the whole family and not just the individual person.
Well, again, doctor Payne, thank you very much for being with us today, and, we look forward to having you, on again very, very soon.
Thank you so much.
My pleasure.